Baha'i Returns Thread: Ask Any of Many Baha'i

[doormouse73]

Doormouse.
. Thank you for your frank thoughts which, although initially addressed to Little Star, reveal a wider audience, specifically, what you perceive as “the Baha’i tag team.”

Let me comment on that. When Moses appeared in the world, among those proponents of His Cause were some who followed the injunction of God to share that which was given to them by Moses, as God directed. An outsider might observe a Jewish “tag team” at work.
. Clearly, the spread of the Gospel, which was enjoined upon the followers of Christ Jesus, consisted of the equivalent of “Christian tag teams”, who courageously faced persecution in obedience to God to teach His Cause, as given to them by the Lord Jesus.

. Although in the west there is little appreciation for “Muslim tag teams”, for the overall view of Islam is distorted through the history of the wrongdoings of some who too aggressively took up the sword in their misguided zeal to spread their Faith, the same behavior by Christians is found throughout history in virtually every land. ( I come from a Sioux Indian Reservation and can testify to this )

. The followers of The Bab (Gate) were also told to spread the teachings and prepare for the coming of “Him Whom God shall make manifest”, referring to Baha’u’llah, the Glory of God. The Bab was essentially the “John the Baptist” of the Baha’i Dispensation.

. The Baha’is are like wise encouraged to share the teachings of Baha’u’llah, but not to proselytize for that is “strictly” forbidden. That we, as early Christians, share some enthusiasm in participating in the advancement of “an ever advancing civilization” by contributing what we regard as the Word of God for this day, is the same enthusiasm felt and shared by the early Christian believers.

. Unfortunately, when we meet with antagonism, unfriendly, and sometimes dishonest attacks against our Faith, we need to find ways to gently correct those inaccuracies in courteous dialogue. Occasionally, a bystander (in this case Little Star) view the venomous attacks with a sense of outrage which calls them to stand up and speak the truth as they see it, much like “white bystanders” arising in the Civil Rights struggle on behalf of the blacks. Does a person of active conscience keep quiet when glaring hatred or racial slurs are directed against other human beings, even by those who themselves profess to be followers of the One who said “Love thine enemies”?

. There are no “card tricksters” here, only sincere believer that the One Whom Jesus told was to come, has come. Literal interpretations of Bible imagery regarding His coming requires an open mind to make sense of things, such as Jesus coming in literal clouds, whereas “clouds” obstruct clear vision of what is happening just beyond them, and yet not so far away as to not be discerned by “those who have eyes to see”.

Thank you for participating in this thread and your encouragement of those who are here to continue. Looking forward to further discussion with you. God bless

could i ask why have you brought colours and race in to this discussion when you are saying that Baha’is are being antagonised, some people have been unfriendly against you, and sometimes dishonest attacks.

this is about questioning ones faith,not any thing to do with race or colour… seems rather odd to place this analogy in there… unless one is in a corner and cannot talk their way out.

 

[daler]

I could go on criticizing bahai based on this passage but I do not feel the need because that is not my point at this time, rather my point is unaddressed again. You say you have answered, you say you have made it clear, but no you haven’t. All you have done is use vague metaphors that don’t add up to anything in the end. What does it tell me that you think a manifestation is like a mirror shining God’s glory? What is that in the end but some abstract concept with no actual meaning other than manifestations should apparently be perfect but we know the people whom you claim to be manifestations were not perfect. Moses sinned (another point bahai have refused to talk about) Mohammad violated the private property of Pagans (smashing their idols and he insulted Christians calling them blasphemers. That last point should be made because bahai say it is wrong to do such things), Krishna claimed to be God, Buddha denied God was important rather only escaping suffering was important and etc. I sincerely doubt any bahai will address the specific point I am raising and begging them to clarify but hey, I’ll give you a chance. Post something from your prophet which doesn’t address my specific question because no one ever asked this of your prophet in the first place and you are left without a clearly defined theology forcing you to think for yourselves. Go on.

Ignatian, as your persistence reflects a further desire for several answers to your questions, and some have not been fully addressed, let me try to resolve just a few more which you point to.

1. You point to the sin of Moses. I’m not sure if you are referring to his defense of another Jew at the hands of an Egyptian slave master who was possibly beating him. When Moses slew the aggressor, was that His sin in your eyes?
   . Baha’u’llah points out that the ways of God are not the ways of men. He explains that God uses human instruments which sophisticated people deny from the outset as having the capacity or rank and position required in their eyes to be a Prophet of God among them, for they are aloof to common men, feeding off the poor, swelled with pride, their heads full of great words.
   . Hence, that God would use one who was accused of murder, who stuttered in His speech, and brought teachings contrary to the corruption of the House of Pharaoh challenged them, exposed their hypocrisy, and disrupted their position in society.
   . That God should choose a “fatherless child”, i.e. a “bastard” in their eyes, and from a place reputed to be unworthy of attention, even as Nathanael said to him, “Can any good thing come out of Nazareth?” Philip said to him, “Come and see.”
   . That an illiterate camel driver might arise with Words not His own, received at first in an empty cave, and challenge the corrupt, idol worshipping Meccans, who buried their own daughters alive, and withstand the onslaught of the savage tribes of Arabia, and yet be the cause of these same idolators to return to practice the religion of Abraham, destroy the 300 idols (a crime of property destruction in “your” eyes), turn in prayer 5 times a day, build the most civilized and organized society the world had ever known at that time, raising science and knowledge to such a high degree that when spread to Europe, became the instrument which drew them out of the Dark Ages and into the Renaissance, seems to be overlooked. This is understandable when we view the history of the unfortunate corruption of Islam, which was in fact prophesied in Revelation, as the Beast (the Ummayyads) disobeyed the Prophet and usurped the power from His intended Successor, Ali, dividing the followers into what became Sunni and Shiah sects.
   . That an unschooled merchant of cloth might arise in the heart of Islam in the most corrupted nation (Iran - Elam in Daniel’s time) and proclaim Himself to be their promised Qa’im, of whom they had awaited a thousand years, fulfilling as well Biblical prophecies to the letter of the 1260 years duration of that Cycle, turning on its head the very foundation of Islam, bringing to a close its purpose, legitimacy, and function in the annals of religious history, as He was the Gate closing forever the Prophetic Cycle, the bridge to the Cycle of fulfillment of which Baha’u’llah is “Christ returned in the Glory of the Father”.
   . That another unlettered Soul Who had not studied the philosophy and theology of the day, unschooled in religion, should receive Revelations from God while under the weight of hundred pound chains for four months in the Siyyah Chal, the “Black Pit” of Tehran, survive such an environment of filth where death surrounded Him on every side, be freed only to then be banished for forty years to the Holy Land as Micah prophesied:
   . “In that day He shall come to thee even from Assyria and from the fortified cities and from the fortress even to the river and from sea to sea and from mountain to mountain” only to end up in the Most Great Prison of Akka, where He proclaimed to the Kings and Rulers of the World His Mission, admonishing them for their waywardness, foretelling their downfall, one after the other with unerring accuracy, and building a community of believers of every religion on earth, every race, class, and nation, ushering in the era of “the One Fold and One Shepherd”

 

[daler]

could i ask why have you brought colours and race in to this discussion when you are saying that Baha’is are being antagonised, unfriendly against you, and sometimes dishonest attacks.

this is about questioning ones faith,not any thing to do with race or colour… seems rather odd to place this analogy in there… unless one is in a corner and cannot talk their way out.

Doormouse. You misunderstand. I was giving a parallel example of people of one group arising in the defense of another when they see repeated attacks against another group. If you review this thread from its beginning, and the previous, now closed, thread called Baha’i, from which this is a continuation (as the previous thread had exceeded the 1000 post limit) there is a long history of blatant and convoluted misrepresentations fraught with unfounded and absurd distortions by one who seems at times to have forgotten “The Truth shall make you free”.

The Baha’is are not in a corner, but seated upon the high mountain plateau, extending a hand of friendliness and concord to all who would climb it and enjoy the view.

 

[daler]

Daler,

Do you believe that the bible prophecies the coming of Baha’u’llah? If so, which verses?

Thanks

PORK

Pork, I wanted to continue answering your questions. Thank you for the time.

Baha’is believe that certain references to God’s Glory, or “the Glory of God”, are actual references to the coming of Baha’u’llah, which translates into English as “The Glory of God”, or “The Glory of the Lord”, or “The Glory of the Father”, (Baha means Glory, Light, and Splendor). The most common translation would be the first, Glory of God ( in Arabic is the word for God is Allah).

It should be pointed out perhaps again that millions of Arabic speaking Christians refer to God as Allah, and worship Allah (God in their language). So that should not be a barrier, nor any fear or prejudice attached to it, as they also refer to Jesus as the Son of Allah.

In Habakuk 2:14 we find the well known verse:

. “For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Glory of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.”

In Arabic that portion of the phrase inserted would read.

. “For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Baha’u’llah as the waters cover the sea.”

. Revelation 21:23-25

. “And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God (Baha’u’llah) gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb. By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it, and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there.”

. These references can be interpreted as simply a quality, light, glory, in our normal understanding, but some of them, Baha’is believe, are actually referring to a Prophet called by that name, Baha’u’llah. (I don’t mean to be redundant)

. Such references, as I mentioned before, can just be held to one side as other evidence is presented. Together, as these references and prophecies are compiled as evidence for the Return, one can judge their merit.

. A few posts back, reference was made to “place prophecies” of Micah. I wish to explain these in light of Jesus saying:
. “For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.” Mat 24

. In Micah 7:12 “In that day He shall come to thee even from Assyria and from the fortified cities and from the fortress even to the river and from sea to sea and from mountain to mountain”

. Baha’u’llah came from “Elam”, as Jeremiah foretold, was banished from His land, did not come of His own accord, and fulfilled these, and “numerous” other prophecies, as He was exiled from Assyria, to the fortified city of Constantinople to the fortified city of Akka, to the river Nayman, and from the Black Sea to the Mediterranean Sea, and from the mountains of Sulaymaniyey, in northern Iraq, to Mount Carmel.

. Micah 7:15 “According to the days of thy coming out of the land of Egypt will I show unto him marvelous things.”

. This duration of the Israelites was forty years. Baha’u’llah was imprisoned first in 1852 and was imprisoned and exiled for 40 years until His death in 1892. His Revelation from God first occurred in the Siyah Chal, the Black Pit of Tehran, in 1852, and lasted exactly 40 years.
. Note how God prophesied to Noah that “I shall make it rain for 40 days and 40 nights”, that is, with “each day for a year in prophecy”, an allusion to 40 years of constant Revelation of Baha’u’llah.
. Further note the repetition of 40 years in the wilderness of Moses, Jesus fasting for 40 days forty days and forty nights, the forty days of appearances after His crucifixion, and while it is unimportant from your perspective, the Revelations of Muhammad began at the age of 40, beginning in the year 610 AD. This will become significant as well, for Muhammad’s cycle lasted 1260 years, ending in 1844, which is 2300 days (years) prophesied by Daniel to begin with the rebuilding of Jerusalem under Artaxerxes in the year 457 BC, as mentioned before.
. In Revelation the various time prophecies of 3 1/2 days corresponds to Daniel’s 3 1/2 “times”. A time was 360 days (years in prophecy), thus 3 1/2 X 360 = 1260. Also, in Revelation is mentioned 42 months, times 30 days per month = 1260.
. So for the students of “time prophecies” who reckon 1844 AD as the fulfillment of the 3 1/2 times from Daniel, the year 1260 AH of the Muslim calendar being exactly the same year, there is either one helluva coincidence going on, or Islam must be understood as part of the picture.
. With this being said, further references in Revelation about “the Beast” begin to apply to the Ummayyads and the Caliphate of Islam, who usurped the True Message and Religion of Islam from its intended Successor appointed by Muhammad, that being Ali. These were actually the Meccan Idolators who feigned allegiance to Muhammad to regain a foothold after He came and destroyed their hundreds of Idols and their corrupted perversion of the Ka’aba first established by Abraham…

. Note: Keep in mind the prophecies of Abraham regarding he descendants of Ishmael, son of Hagar, “I will also make a nation of the descendants of Hagar’s son”, in Arabia, i.e. those who became the followers of Muhammad. So both Muslims and Jews are prophesied in Genesis, to be part of the last days, and of course we know the Jews have already returned to Israel, which process began with the Edict of toleration (or submission) signed on March 23, 1844, exactly 2300 years after Artaxerxes issued the decree to rebuild Jerusalem… hmmmm

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Daler

1, regarding Moses

The text quite simply doesn’t say or imply anything of the sort you are trying to say here. That when a chastising of a prophet occurs within scripture that means God is chastising the people?

Numbers 20 : 12 But the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, Why did you not trust in me, and vindicate my holiness in the sight of Israel? It will not be yours to lead this multitude into the land I mean to give them. 13 This is the place called the Water of Rebellion, where the Israelites challenged the Lord, and he vindicated his holiness before them.
This happens just after Moses doesn’t make the miracle occur the way God wanted because he is angry with the Israelites, that is God commands Moses to make the command not smash the rock as he did and God rightly chastises Moses and his brother Aaron, not the whole of Israel on this occasion which he does plenty of times throughout the torah. Where this predominant theme to be found? Why can’t the reverse be true, that when God blesses a prophet he is blessing the nation? This is a thoughtless interpretation designed solely to get you out of the problem that faces you with what the text actually says, that Moses angered God and sinned against God and was punished. That is Moses was punished by your account for sins he did not commit, that God set this whole event up, that has disturbing ramifications. Why can’t we interpret David’s son as taking on the sins of the people like Jesus? Why can’t we interpret the evil kings as taking the sins of the people, what makes this principle only limited to those whom you would accept as prophets? Nothing but your crude and unthinking interpretation.

2, Budhism

Provide the quote please and the actual source for that. I’ve learned not to trust snippets and especially unsourced snippets, you are aware there are sources that say things counter to this? That he speaks of God as unimportant, not at all worth believing or considering.

3, manifestationism

I’m not concerned with your view of the superioty of manifestations, that I know, I just want to be clear as to whether or not they are individual entities and so far only one person (Arthra) has affirmed that they are individuals, not all the same. So I’m glad you concede they are multiple, and by that I assume you mean there are many.

4, the incessant comparison of bahais to Christians as if they were the modern day jews and Mirza Hussain was the modern day Jesus.

I hear this a lot, that apparently we are just like the jews who rejected Jesus? I see this thrown again and again, perhaps Mormons should say this to you when they reject you, that you are the modern day Pharisees against the true believers. The funny thing is those whom Jesus himself trusted with his church were on my side, the historic Christian side, they established churches with men like Ignatius, Polycarp and Clement, men whom you could not possibly agree with. What does that tell me precisely? It tells me for one thing that bahai are innovators and that if I am to be compared to the Pharisees I will compare you to Simon magus the father of all gnostic heresy. See I can offer parables and metaphors and pretend I’ve made an argument as well. Simply telling me “You don’t understand, but I don’t blame you.” Is not grounds for a conversation, it patronizing and if you really think that, stop engaging with me, leave me to my ignorant rants.

1. Manifestations again

I get that you are maintaining these are supernatural spiritual entities, Daler, but what I;m not getting is if they are individual spirits which can be separated from one another not only in body but in spirit, that is the substance of whatever composes them.

1. Servant says it is disreprectful to call Mirza Hussain (mirza means Lord btw) by his actual name.

Why is this? Why should I be forced to call him by the name he ascribed to himself which means “"Glory of God” according to Wikipedia, when if I understand the bahai conception of manifestationism this probably means in the most literal sense he is the glory of God? Quite frankly I deny that and would rather call him Baha’u’Shaitan for I would believe that before I believe he was of God.

 

[Timi_Celcer]

I would like to ask some questions. If Mohammed is according to the Quran the last prophet of God, how then is Bahá’u’lláh a prophet if he came after Mohammed?

Also why would God create different religions that would be the cause of many wars and many deaths, why wouldn’t God just create one on each continent or some area?

Also what do Bahai believe, that Jesus is the Son of God or that he is just a prophet. I highlighted just because that is what Islam believes, that Jesus was only a prophet, opposing to what Christianity, that he was the Son of God. Appereant contradiction here and if you say Islam is right and Christianity is wrong, or that the modern Christianity is wrong and that the original Christian belief was lost, than it would make no sense would it. Why would God sent a “prophet” Jesus, if he would start a false religion? And not just a religon THE BIGGEST religion in the world.

 

[daler]

Igatian: With respect to your views, and admitting that I am not a scholar by any measure, you ask me to provide answers to this and that, which are important to you, I grant you, but are of relative insignificance to me. I do the best I can to accommodate you according to my understanding while you dwell on every side issue imaginable, ignoring the central theme, in my view, of getting to the “proofs” establishing that Baha’u’llah is indeed the Promised One foretold in all of the major religions of the world.

. You see, there are Baha’is all over the world having these kinds of discussions in answer to the varied, many faceted dogmatic views of the adherents of the hundreds, even thousands of sects of Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Sikh, Sufi, Jain, Zoroastrian, Native American, Confucian, etc, etc, etc, etc…
. To expect a lowly servant like me from a hog farm in South Dakota to strike at every curveball you or all these other fellas on the mound throw is asking quite a lot, don’t you agree?? Humor me a little here, fella… There’s always another curveball coming at us, and there are no professional clergy among us, for they do not exist in the Baha’i Faith, as we have an Administrative Order composed of common people.
. Why don’t you take some time to read up on some of the prophecies, since the Words of Baha’u’llah Himself are not penetrating your hardened defenses. For me, it is the power of His Words that illumine my heart and soul, and as I have said before, I was very much like you in my resistance for 10 years, going from the condition of Saul to Paul, but as you have not yet run all the way down that road, He has yet to shine for you in all His glory.
. I respect this. I really do. As long as you are sincere, and I am helping you as best I can, but it seems to me that the reason(s) you are unable to recognize Baha’u’llah as Christ returned in the Glory of the Father has more to do with you than me, and there is nothing I can do about that, friend, for I firmly believe in the words,
“Seek and ye shall find”
“Knock, and it shall be opened unto you.”
and that, unfortunately, as it says in Hebrews 12:14
“Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: …”

You can take that any way you want, but I’m telling you that until I dropped my adolescent attitude and arrogance and ceased my intellectual pride and the illusions of self-certainty, I was not ready to receive the powerfully enlightening Message of Baha’u’llah for this Day of God in which I now understand that we live.
. Have the Jews returned to their homeland? Yes they have. Have the stars (think Hollywood stars, only religious stars, instead) fallen from the skies? Yes, they have. Is there a new heaven and a new earth? Yes, for it is the new heavenly Revelation which has entered the new earth of the hearts of those who have opened themselves to receive that heavenly rain which fell for forty days and forty nights (forty years), where as those who are hard hearted remain devoid of the penetrating wisdom flowing from the gushing fountain of His life-giving waters.

Sorry, brother, but I cannot walk that road for you. You have many questions. This reflects an active mind, and I am not saying that they are invalid, for to you they most certainly are, but from my perspective, there is something standing in the way of your soul recognizing your Lord in His latest Manifestation. It is clinging to hatred of the Light and prejudice against new understanding.

Therefore, speaking very bluntly, forthrightly, and honestly, I think that you prefer to remain Saul, where you are comfortable, enjoying your intellect and endless discussions, which keep you in “control”, whereas I left that comfort zone over thirty years ago, walked my own road to Damascus (or Wounded Knee,) and came out the other side of the rabbit hole as Paul, and am merely looking back atcha, brother, saying: “Come on in, the water’s wet” There’s nothing to be afraid of. The answers you seek cannot come from me, for my knowledge is less than a drop, while the high seas are right outside, but you have to walk to the beach, and

. “Immerse yourselves in the ocean of My words, that ye may unravel its secrets, and discover all the pearls of wisdom that lie hid in its depths. Take heed that ye do not vacillate in your determination to embrace the truth of this Cause—a Cause through which the potentialities of the might of God have been revealed, and His sovereignty established. With faces beaming with joy, hasten ye unto Him. This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. Let him that seeketh, attain it; and as to him that hath refused to seek it—verily, God is Self-Sufficient, above any need of His creatures.”

Baha’u’llah

 

[daler]

I would like to ask some questions.

. Timi, Very good questions. This has been a stumbling block for many Muslims, who despite referring to this verse from the Quran, have misinterpreted its meaning.
. First, Baha’u’llah states that “The Prophetic Cycle hath verily, ended. The Cycle of Fulfillment has dawned.”
. What this means, is that from the very beginning time of Genesis, there have been Prophecies, from Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and up through and including Muhammad of The Day of God, the Day of Resurrection, Judgement Day, The Day of Separation, etc, etc.
As Arthra pointed out a few threads back, the Arabic term for Prophet can be either of two words:

There are two kinds of prophets mentioned in the Qur’an … two Arabic words… one is Nabi and the other is Rasuli… The Nabi were inspired and prophetic… The Rasuli likewise were inspired but also and in addition brought new laws and ordiannces… The Qur’anic verse has “Seal of the Nabiyum” not the Rasuli…

Baha’is also believe the dispensation of Prophet Muhammad sealed an age of prophecy while the current dispensation of the Bab and Baha’u’llah was the age of the fulfillment of prophecy.

You can read more about this at

bahai-library.com/fananapazir…finality_islam

. I might add that at least a million Muslims are now Baha’i. Probably at least a couple of million Christians, as many Hindus, and tens or hundreds of thousands from each of the other various religions. 10% of Iranian Jews became Baha’is. There would be many times the number of Jews and Muslims entering the Faith if the price of belief were not so high: imprisonment, death, loss of jobs, deprivation of education, pensions, housing, etc, etc, etc. This, just in the land of its birth, Persia, or ancient Elam in Biblical times, what we now call Iran.
. People from every race, class, country, religion, imaginable have embraced the Truths of this religion, which all members of the Faith agree “This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future…”
. The religion of God is one, but it has been revealed through a process Baha’is call “progressive revelation”. “The Prophets of God proclaim the same Faith”, but people interpret it as different Faiths, and unfortunately, sometimes add so much of their own dogma and interpretation that it is like mud in a glass of water being thrown in the face of humanity. Some spit that muddy water out at the next and the next, wars persist in the name of religion, but it is not the pure religion of God that people are fighting over, it is their corrupted versions, distorted translations, led by self-serving “leaders” of religions, who have created a thousand(s) schisms for their own lust of leadership.
. Hence, as you say, all this war and bloodshed in the name of God, Allah, Jehovah, etc. It is no wonder so many people reject religion entirely and disbelieve in God.

. Baha’is believe the designation “Son” of God denotes this intimate spiritual kinship with God the Father, not shared DNA. Abraham was called the “Friend” of God, Moses the Intercolator, Muhammad the “Apostle” of God, the Bab is the “Gate” of God, and Baha’u’llah is the “Glory” of God.
. That Christians see Jesus as God incarnate does not agree with Muslim’s interpretation of Allah (God) being the One Who “sends” His Apostles or Messengers to humanity, but they do regard Jesus as the “Spirit” of God, or Ruhu’llah. It is not a degrading of His station in their view, but a more accurate presentation of Who He is, according to the verses of the Quran.
. Baha’is believe the following;

. “Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His Essence and reveal it unto men. He is, and hath ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived. From His retreat of glory His voice is ever proclaiming: “Verily, I am God; there is none other God besides Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. I have manifested Myself unto men, and have sent down Him Who is the Day Spring of the signs of My Revelation. Through Him I have caused all creation to testify that there is none other God except Him, the Incomparable, the All-Informed, the All-Wise.” He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person.”

. It isn’t that one religion is right and another wrong. Just because Christianity is right does not make Judaism wrong. Religion is by design (God’s design) a test to humanity, but reveals a path which, if followed, yields spiritual health and prosperity for the soul, in this world and the next.

Baha’is do not believe that Jesus is “just” a Prophet. We believe what He says about Himself:

“These are not My words, but Him that sent Me.”
“The Father is greater than I”
“The Son can do nothing of Himself, but that which the Father showeth Him”

Hence, draw your own conclusions as to Who, or What, He is. Some make Him God, some call Him a Messenger of God, which seems to fit with what He Himself says.
Baha’is refer to Him as a Manifestation of God. i.e. One in Whom God Manifests His Reality to men in accordance with their limited capacity to comprehend Him.

I hope this helps

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Igatian: With respect to your views, and admitting that I am not a scholar by any measure, you ask me to provide answers to this and that, which are important to you, I grant you, but are of relative insignificance to me. I do the best I can to accommodate you according to my understanding while you dwell on every side issue imaginable, ignoring the central theme, in my view, of getting to the “proofs” establishing that Baha’u’llah is indeed the Promised One foretold in all of the major religions of the world.

Then why are you bothering with me? I mentioned nothing about proofs, what I am doing is questioning central elements of bahai faith whereas you want to provide something personal and establish emotional connections and beliefs.

 

[arthra]

On the “just” a prophet theme… You could also say that Jesus alluded to Himself as a “prophet” when He was in His “home town”…

Reading Mark chapter 6:

6:1 And he went out from thence, and came into his own country; and his disciples follow him.

6:2 And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying,

From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands?

6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

6:4 But Jesus, said unto them, **A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.
**
6:5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.

6:6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.

Somehow the station of “prophet” in some people’s minds has become minimized… Oh He was just a prophet…If the Lord Himself alluded to Himself as a prophet He is at least as much and we know He is more as well…

Hosea 12:13 **

And by a prophet the LORD brought Israel out of Egypt, and by a prophet was he preserved.**

 

[Jcc1960]

Here is another thought about the “just a prophet” question.

When Muhammad said that it does not “befit the majesty of God that He should take unto Himself a son” He is not diminishing the station of Jesus, rather it is to exalt the station of God. In other words, Muhammad is saying that the true nature of Who Christians understand as God the Father is far beyond what we can conceive.

Of course Christians will object to that assessment. But while you are objecting, consider this: do you really think that a God that we can fully understand, or to use the idiom, that we can “wrap our heads around” is One Who could be the Creator of the Universe and all the heavens? I don’t.

 

[Little_Star_1]

as an outsider listening in on this thread,which btw i find very interesting indeed, ive got to say this, LITTLE STAR,are you part of this Bahai tag team?

it does look to me that you are trying very hard to get people on the side of the Baha`i folk.

and you never mention anything at all do with the topic of the thread,why is that?

this is not a personal attack on you,please dont think it is.

but it does look like card tricksters on the street hustling Joe public with a plant amongst them to get them in the net…

God bless every body… keep the thread going it is showing to me more than words can say.

I really don’t know what you are referring to when you say “tag team”. The post that I think you are referring to (where I mention my familial background) was written to try to get some pretty stubborn folks to see that, when you get right down to it, when we are talking religion, we are talking love of God, and that love comes from the same source.

No one apparently got my analogy. Also, I was frustrated with the level of antagonism being directed to the Baha’i members from some of the Christians. It is as if they think the faith threatens them in some way. This thread started out as a really cool exchange between people that had a real interest in learning about the Baha’i faith, such as myself. Then, some folks jumped in and just got very aggressive in the manner in which they posted.

You would have to read the whole thread, including an earlier one that got too big, to understand. Not sure who you think is hustling anyone and can’t imagine where you would get that from anything posted. I am not a plant. I jump in giving my impressions of the Baha’i faith and sometimes, I jump in to request that folks chill on the negativity.

Really, why in the world would you imagine folks are in a religious forum to hustle people? What would be gained? I am not trying to get anyone on anyone’s side. I am asking that folks act as if they are truly loving Christians and stop being so nasty. I guess I was standing up for the Baha’i and hating that folks of my religion were acting so ugly. I felt ashamed of them.

Maybe I am missing your point to the same degree you apparently missed mine.

 

[flameburns623]

For the record: if you are a reasonable and cultured individual and not a lout;

The central religious figure of the Baha’i Faith is Baha’u’llah.

The leader of the Tibetan Buddhists is the Dalai Lama;

The heads of various Orthodox communions are Patriarch, Metropolitan, or as custom decree.

The head of the Latin Church is deemed Pope.

A Protestant minister of the Gospel may elect to be styled Pastor, if they have doctrinal sensitivies to being addressed as ‘Reverend’.

And so on.

You can conduct religious dialogue and even apologetic evangelizing while remaining respectful.

Indeed–showing respect might make your efforts more effective.

 

[Servant19]

God bless you flame

 

[flameburns623]

I think, doormouse, that Little Star is a bit shell shocked that Christians would treat others in the way that Ignatian has treated the Baha’is in this thread.

There can be no doubt that continuing to purposely disrespect Baha’u’llah by calling Him by His birth name, warrants some questions, and to be honest I’m a little disappointed that the Christians here have not united together and shown the courage to ask him to be respectful.

Water off a ducks back for the Baha’is, God is verily Self-Sufficient, but it would be equivalent to continuously and knowingly calling The Lord of Christianity “Jesus the Non-Messiah”

Were I to continue calling Him “Jesus the non-Messiah”, I can assure you that ALL Baha’is would be telling me to knuckle down and show some charity, more importantly some respect (a God-given virtue) . . . .

Someone thought my last post sounded angry and I apologise if that impression was conveyed.

I was concurring with the sentiments of the above. No anger was motivating me, neither was I attempting to insult anyone.

Thanks!

 

[Little_Star_1]

There has been much focus in the discussion on the nature of the Baha’i view of their leader, Baha’u’llah, and their view of Jesus. Baha’i please correct me if I am wrong, however, from the reading I have done so far, Baha’i do not have a faith which is focused on the worship of Baha’u’llah. Instead, they focus on his teachings. Which were to learn to live as Moses, Elijah, Abraham, and Jesus, in all of life. To dare to approach that which is Holy and is without name, to walk with Him, to actually know one is with Him, in the same manner these men lived.

I think because Christianity is focused on Jesus, Christians don’t get that your faith is focused on teachings and the Lord, the Father, the I Am, knowing one’s own soul, and daring to approach God as His Child. Bringing the light of Heaven into one’s heart and soul and being. You do not exalt Baha’u’llah as we do Jesus. You see him as your leader and father of your faith who told you, you are a child of God, live it, be it, have the faith of a mustard seed and move mountains, engage the hearts of men as one, allow God to call you to Him and remain. Don’t do miracles, be miracles.

Is that anywhere near right?

 

[Servant19]

Again Little Star, you touch on something very pure, very fragile and touching.

Please understand that we revere Baha’u’llah to the point that when my children pray, they pray to Baha’u’llah, since He “represents” God on this human plane. We do not reduce His station to the human plane (as was required for Muhammad in the Islamic Dispensation) nor do we exalt Him to the Divine plane (as was required for Jesus in the Christian Dispensation), we have KNOWLEDGE of Who They Are and are clear in this knowledge and base this raised consciousness around the way we worship.

Worship is an essential pillar of the Bahai religion. It’s definitely a focus, but in no way at the expense of the other focus: service.

The second pillar of the Bahai religion is service. The deeds which manifest themselves from our love for Baha’u’llah. To follow His teachings as truly and humbly as we can.

We are blessed that Baha’u’llah has left a unique legacy, a legacy which will forever remain a mystery, and that is the Mystery of God Himself, the Examplar of the Bahai Faith, Abdu’l-Baha. He was the PERFECT human being, an exemplary LIVING example of Baha’u’llahs Teachings.

Abdu’l-Baha means “Servant of Baha’u’llah” and He is quoted as having said “Look at me, follow me, be as I am…”

The challenge has been laid down for all mankind, look at Abdul-Baha and model our lives around His deeds, His services, His example.

We are lucky and blessed to have countless historically accurate accounts of Abdul-Baha’s life, and the way He was revered as a god at His time in His own right, receiving a knighthood for His services to humanity and recognized and revered by the Catholic Church at the time in the UK

 

[Little_Star_1]

Again Little Star, you touch on something very pure, very fragile and touching.

Please understand that we revere Baha’u’llah to the point that when my children pray, they pray to Baha’u’llah, since He “represents” God on this human plane. We do not reduce His station to the human plane (as was required for Muhammad in the Islamic Dispensation) nor do we exalt Him to the Divine plane (as was required for Jesus in the Christian Dispensation), we have KNOWLEDGE of Who They Are and are clear in this knowledge and base this raised consciousness around the way we worship.

Worship is an essential pillar of the Bahai religion. It’s definitely a focus, but in no way at the expense of the other focus: service.

The second pillar of the Bahai religion is service. The deeds which manifest themselves from our love for Baha’u’llah. To follow His teachings as truly and humbly as we can.

We are blessed that Baha’u’llah has left a unique legacy, a legacy which will forever remain a mystery, and that is the Mystery of God Himself, the Examplar of the Bahai Faith, Abdu’l-Baha. He was the PERFECT human being, an exemplary LIVING example of Baha’u’llahs Teachings.

Abdu’l-Baha means “Servant of Baha’u’llah” and He is quoted as having said “Look at me, follow me, be as I am…”

The challenge has been laid down for all mankind, look at Abdul-Baha and model our lives around His deeds, His services, His example.

I came back to make a clarification. What Baha’i teaches is for us to realize that we are One with God and to remain aware of that in all that we do. As a Christian, my focus would still be on Jesus and asking that he bring me the insight and the focus to raise my awareness of my oneness with God.

I kind of get what you mean about how you regard Baha’u’llah. Can’t describe it, but feel it. But, for me the role you assign to him is already established in me as the role played by Jesus. However, I am sure Jesus would not have a problem with me giving my respect and feeling a kinship of sorts between he and Baha’u’llah. In my human mind, it would be like inviting a friend along on this journey I am taking with Jesus to God.

Please don’t think I see this last comment as doctrine of any sorts. I learn by placing these types of links in my mind. It is not intended to diminish Jesus or Baha’u’llah. Just how my heart can hold it is all.

 

[doormouse73]

I really don’t know what you are referring to when you say “tag team”. The post that I think you are referring to (where I mention my familial background) was written to try to get some pretty stubborn folks to see that, when you get right down to it, when we are talking religion, we are talking love of God, and that love comes from the same source.

No one apparently got my analogy. Also, I was frustrated with the level of antagonism being directed to the Baha’i members from some of the Christians. It is as if they think the faith threatens them in some way. This thread started out as a really cool exchange between people that had a real interest in learning about the Baha’i faith, such as myself. Then, some folks jumped in and just got very aggressive in the manner in which they posted.

You would have to read the whole thread, including an earlier one that got too big, to understand. Not sure who you think is hustling anyone and can’t imagine where you would get that from anything posted. I am not a plant. I jump in giving my impressions of the Baha’i faith and sometimes, I jump in to request that folks chill on the negativity.

Really, why in the world would you imagine folks are in a religious forum to hustle people? What would be gained? I am not trying to get anyone on anyone’s side. I am asking that folks act as if they are truly loving Christians and stop being so nasty. I guess I was standing up for the Baha’i and hating that folks of my religion were acting so ugly. I felt ashamed of them.

Maybe I am missing your point to the same degree you apparently missed mine.

hello little star,

now you said this in the first paragraph…

when you get right down to it, when we are talking religion, we are talking love of God, and that love comes from the same source.

then in the second paragraph you say…

It is as if they think the faith threatens them in some way.

now first and foremost my religion is Christianity,but my faith is Roman Catholic.

if any denomination of Christianity came on a Roman Catholic forum and said things that dont match up with the faith of the RC forum im pretty sure they would get the replies similar to the Baha’is who have come on here…

now i can see some of God in what they say but first and foremost this is why i think that you maybe loosing sight why the conversations are what they are…

if im a million miles away im sorry,the thread previous to this is the size of war and peace.my eyes water after ten minutes of reading it its that long.lol…

God bless

just read the post above,very nice indeed…

 

[SteveVH]

Here is another thought about the “just a prophet” question.

When Muhammad said that it does not “befit the majesty of God that He should take unto Himself a son” He is not diminishing the station of Jesus, rather it is to exalt the station of God. In other words, Muhammad is saying that the true nature of Who Christians understand as God the Father is far beyond what we can conceive.

Of course Christians will object to that assessment. But while you are objecting, consider this: do you really think that a God that we can fully understand, or to use the idiom, that we can “wrap our heads around” is One Who could be the Creator of the Universe and all the heavens? I don’t.

It is important to understand that as Christians we believe that Jesus Christ is the One about whom the prophets prophesied. In his taking on flesh and dwelling among us the fullness of God’s revelation of himself was given to mankind.

So when we say that Jesus is not “just a prophet” we are drawing a distinction between Jesus and every other man who has ever lived on this earth. No prophet points to himself. Jesus always pointed to himself: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14:6)

Jesus is absolutely unique in that he is God among us; not simply a wise prophet, or a good teacher, or one more in a long line of manifestations.

From the Christian view, when Muhammad said that it does not “befit the majesty of God that He should take unto Himself a son” he is in direct contradiction to the very revelation of God Himself and is therefore a false prophet, leading people away from Truth Himself.

I have been traveling and have not posted on this thread since soon after it started, but this goes to the heart of the matter as far my issue with the Baha’i faith is concerned, and that is the intrinsic contradictions in a faith that embraces contradicting prophets as well as contradicting beliefs. One cannot believe in the resurrection and at the same time in reincarnation. One cannot simultaneously believe that Jesus is the Son of God and believe that God does not have a Son. This seems to be a question of reason as well as religious belief and I cannot see how one reconciles, even logically, the simultaneous belief in contradicting doctrines and “prophets”.