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SteveVH
Guest
You should read the book. How do you feel about the words of St. John of the Cross?The ascent of Mount Carmel… now that’s a beautiful thing for Baha’is. I’ve walked up there a couple of times!
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IgnatianPhilo
Guest
So are you saying they are individuals? Very well then.
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IgnatianPhilo
Guest
Mirza Hussain suggested all the prophets were equal, this is wrong, Jesus is the greatest prophet. But would you be willing to lay down this argument for the traditional Catholic/Orthodox understanding in a thread dedicated to that? I should love to see you make such a case.
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daler
Guest
Doormouse,why do i get the feeling that in debate the bahais quote the their prophet in the same way the muslims do with the Koran…
its like a circular argument…
God bless…
I think it is something like this. Men walk around in the daytime pointing to their candles of understanding about God.
Baha’is reach up and point to the Sun and say: “Its shining! Its shining! There it is!!”
. “Quench the lamp of search once the sun hath risen.” Ali
For me, it is a little like pouring water into the gas tank of my car when there is high octane gasoline available. For Free!!
But I do understand your position, and please forgive me for being blunt, but the Words of Baha’u’llah are Power and Light, full of infinite wisdom. He is the Lord of Utterance.
Baha’is believe Him to be the One to whom Jesus referred when He said,
“I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bare it now. Howbeit, when He, the Spirit of Truth is come, He will guide you into all truth.”
It is a matter of “recognition”. The proof of the sun is the light which reaches to earth.
The proof of Baha’u’llah are His Words which penetrate the hearts of men, as rain falls upon the earth, or light from the sun.
It isn’t so much an intellectual thing, for an illiterate person can hear the Words of Baha’u’llah for the first time and recognize that “These are the Words of God”
It is like Peter, the simple fisherman, who knew His Lord the moment He laid eyes on Him, for He “heard His voice”.
The highly educated and sophisticated Pharisees, with all their pomp and splendor in the eyes of the people did not know their Lord, despite all their learning.
“Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.” Hebrews 12:14
Despite their human and religious learning, the Pharisees lacked this holiness. In order to “find” HIm, we must fulfill the search: “Seek, and ye shall find.”
This is the meaning of “one shall be taken and one shall be left.”
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IgnatianPhilo
Guest
The problem is that the things the spirit of truth will do, the things the comforter will do and the identity as to whom this is according to Jesus cannot correspond to Mirza Hussain the 19th century persian prophet, in fact the bahai can offer no real reason why it shouldn’t be Muhammad after all he is a manifestation just like Mirza Hussain according to them.
We must remember first and foremost whom is the spirit of truth promised to? Was it promised to Arab muslims in the 20th century of a heretical sect broken off from islam? Or was it promised to the apostles to whom Jesus was speaking to within the context of this revelation concerning the spirit of truth?
Well, when the truth-giving Spirit, who proceeds from the Father, has come to befriend you, he whom I will send to you from the Father’s side, he will bear witness of what I was; 27 and you too are to be my witnesses, you who from the first have been in my company.
How can we interpret this to be anything other than the apostles? Only by reading what we want into the text, ie a prophet whom was not prophesised nor performed signs. The Comforter, the spirit of truth is whom Jesus said he was, the Holy spirit and the holy spirit came indwelled fully in the apostles during acts. The fullness of the faith was given, nothing more is needed.
We must remember first and foremost whom is the spirit of truth promised to? Was it promised to Arab muslims in the 20th century of a heretical sect broken off from islam? Or was it promised to the apostles to whom Jesus was speaking to within the context of this revelation concerning the spirit of truth?
Well, when the truth-giving Spirit, who proceeds from the Father, has come to befriend you, he whom I will send to you from the Father’s side, he will bear witness of what I was; 27 and you too are to be my witnesses, you who from the first have been in my company.
How can we interpret this to be anything other than the apostles? Only by reading what we want into the text, ie a prophet whom was not prophesised nor performed signs. The Comforter, the spirit of truth is whom Jesus said he was, the Holy spirit and the holy spirit came indwelled fully in the apostles during acts. The fullness of the faith was given, nothing more is needed.
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Jcc1960
Guest
We give great credence to the Bible. It is the Word of God, and contains moral teachings, religious laws, and prophecies. More than that, it gives us a glimpse into God’s plan for us. Christians would say, God’s plan for our salvation, which we would agree with, but it actually goes beyond the salvation that Christ gave us, at leas that is how we interpret the prophecies of His return and the Kingdom of God on earth.
We absolutely pay great attention to Christ’s actual words, which sadly there are precious few of them recorded in the Gospels. As I said at the end of the last paragraph you quoted from me above, Baha’is are taught to read and understand with our own hearts, and not follow the beliefs of our parents just because we were born to a particular religion. That is true for children born into Baha’i families as well.
Of course we believe in not only the Bible, but also the scriptures of other revealed religions, and of course the scriptures of the Bab and Baha’u’llah are the most recent and most appropriate for this age. Some religious teachings are universal and eternal, and others are only intended for a period of time until the next dispensation from God. Therefore most Jewish laws are no longer applicable, and most of the laws of Islam are no longer applicable. Likewise the caste system in India was endorsed by Krishna 5000 years ago, but was ended by Buddha 2500 years ago (so why is it still there). Slavery was endorsed in the Bible, but was ended by Baha’u’llah. I presume that is one new teaching of Baha’u’llah that you would actually agree with (He has forbidden slavery).
These are the types of things that you could say are conflicts between religions. There is no conflict when you understand that the old teachings were totally appropriate for a time in the past, and were the will of God for that time, but have been changed in a new era according to God’s wisdom. Jews were forbidden to eat pork, but Christians can. Is that a conflict?
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IgnatianPhilo
Guest
You give credence to the bible but it must be asked, if the Catholic/Orthodox church fell away and believed in false deceptions and evil things (Jesus is God and dont pretend you mean the same thing we do please), why use our bible? This is a question I usually ask of protestants but bahai beliefs beg this question as well. The bible was not a product of the apostles in that they put it together, in fact it was the church later that did this and it is upon much of the tradition of the church we trust alot of these books. But that church cannot be a good and truth producing church according to bahai because we believe so many things that you deny. Do bahai have a responce?
Also, its not the practice thats the problem its the difference in doctrine that is the problem. We can ignore the fact jews dont eat pork or shellfish but what we can’t ignore is the deeper theological problems. IN that rises the contradiction and the subsequent historical problem for the bahai faith.
Also, its not the practice thats the problem its the difference in doctrine that is the problem. We can ignore the fact jews dont eat pork or shellfish but what we can’t ignore is the deeper theological problems. IN that rises the contradiction and the subsequent historical problem for the bahai faith.
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daler
Guest
Steve,
. If I may step in here. Yes, we do read the Scriptures, but we have an understanding based upon what we regard as further Revelation from God.
. When we look at the stories of Noah and Abraham, they come to us through Moses, and are told in a certain way of storytelling such that men gained some understanding about God. Unfortunately, we have nothing in Moses’ own hand.
. Likewise, I think it is unfortunate that we have nothing in Jesus own hand, but that which was handed down to us according to the recollection and understanding of the authors of the Gospels, which vary somewhat, showing that human recollection was not “word for word” precise.
. Baha’is believe that the essential truth is contained in the Gospels, despite these minor inconsistencies, and that that truth was sufficient at the time to guide humanity and to serve our spiritual needs.
. But just as that which Moses gave was more than Abraham brought, Jesus also brought more than Moses brought. The reason for this is that humanity “digested” the previous Messages from God, so to speak, incorporating it into our individual and collective social life.
. We believe what we call “Progressive Revelation”, that each of the Prophets lay a foundation of learning upon which the next One builds. It is the same Message, only fuller, at each successive stage, as we are ready to receive a greater outpouring of the knowledge of God.
. Consider walking into a cave with a single candle. You can make out a few shadows, and take another step. Abraham brought a candle to guide humanity in its first steps towards the comprehension of One God.
. Moses brought ten candles (commandments), let us say, to aid men to walk further out of darkness.
. Jesus brought a Torch, adding much more Light, through His Words, and as He Himself said: “I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bare them now. Howbeit when He the Spirit of Truth is come, He will guide you into all truth.”
. With the coming of Baha’u’llah, the Spirit of Truth has come, and all the Lights are turned on. “This is the Day which shall not be followed by night”
So in answer to your question, the determination that we make is in light of the fact that we now have more Light to see more of what is in that spiritual cave in which mankind dwells, through the Words of Baha’u’llah, Who brings what we could not bare at the time of Jesus. It was not that Jesus could not say these things unto us, but that “we” could not bare them yet. Instead of seeing through a glass darkly, the lens is more precise to our current needs and capacity to view more of what we are now ready to hold within our field of view.
Hence, the role of the Divine Torch Barers is to shed the Light of God upon our path in a measure we are ready to receive. As we walk further along the spiritual path, a new Torch Barer is sent by God to hold whatever candle or torch He puts in Their hand. The further we walk, the more Light we need as we emerge from darkness, and He provides it.
. But consider what we do to the Torch Barers. We chase them around the desert for forty years, saw them in half, behead them, crucify, beat, deny, refuse, hold in contempt, shoot, banish, starve, and imprison Them. Yet They always come back for us, bringing those Torches to guide us towards the Heaven of reunion with God. For that is Their Mission.
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arthra
Guest
Steve…
A few years ago on another forum we had some one post a lot of the sayings of Juan de la Cruz and they compared them to the Hidden Words revealed by Baha’u’llah when He was walking along the Tigris River but one of the things I found was a diagram of Mount Carmel by Juan de la Cruz you nmay be familiar with:
One of the things I found was a schematic diagram by Juan de la Cruz of Mount Carmel:
Yahoo! Image Detail for - http://www.icspublications.org/images/Ascent.jpg
The diagram by Juan de la Cruz has a central channel with gradations which is called the path of Mount Carmel the perfect spirit…
The path leads to “only the honor and Glory of God dwells on this mount…”
Surrounding it are nine words which we Baha’is will recognize as attributes …Peace, Joy, Happeness, Delight, Wisdom, Justice , Foritude, Charity and Piety.
You know what I’m going to suggest here …don’t you… The Terraces…
upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9e/Bah%C3%A1%27%C3%AD_Shrine_of_the_Bab_in_Haifa%2C_Israel.jpg
The Arc on Mount Carmel. A vision from the sixteenth century mystic Juan de la Cruz…
The "Glory of God dwells on this mount…"is well for Baha’is pretty self explanatory!
Baha’u’llah also revealed the Tablet of Carmel…
reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/TB/tb-2.html
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SteveVH
Guest
The very Scriptures which you read have their fulfillment in Christ, meaning no further revelation is necessary or to be expected until Christ comes again. For the sake of discussion, however, if there were further revelation from God it could not and would not contradict the revelation of Jesus Christ and still be from God and so those so-called revelations that do contradict the truth revealed in Christ would be in error.
You are correct. Jesus did not write a word. He taught the Apostles and then sent the Holy Spirit upon them. They had no need of books. They were dealing with knowledge infused by the Holy Spirit who protected them from error. The human authors of Sacred Scripture wrote only what the Holy Spirit inspired them to write. This was done using the life experience and personalities of these authors resulting in varying points of view. They also spoke to different audiences and thus stressed one thing over another. But all of Scripture is the inerrant Word of God and each of the sacred texts, with all their variation (which isn’t much) convey the divine truth that was meant to be conveyed. We do not have to rely on weak human memories in order to know what was handed down by the Apostles. The fullness of that truth was preserved and protected by the Holy Spirit in the very life and teachings of the early Church, i.e. Sacred Tradition. Scripture is that part of Sacred Tradition committed to writing.
There is a strong desire among some to suppose that the Sacred Scriptures are subject to the weakness of human memory or other human flaws and are therefore not completely reliable. This is almost always the position of those who wish to ignore those parts of Scripture that conflict with what they desire to be true. The Scriptures cannot be interpreted correctly unless they are considered within the context of the Sacred Tradition from whence they came. They are the supporting documents to a faith well formed and practiced centuries before the New Testament saw the light of day and to read it outside of the understanding of the Church that produced it is to bring error into its understanding.
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SteveVH
Guest
Thank you for all of this. So how do you feel about the words of St. John of the Cross?Steve…
A few years ago on another forum we had some one post a lot of the sayings of Juan de la Cruz and they compared them to the Hidden Words revealed by Baha’u’llah when He was walking along the Tigris River but one of the things I found was a diagram of Mount Carmel by Juan de la Cruz you nmay be familiar with:
One of the things I found was a schematic diagram by Juan de la Cruz of Mount Carmel:
Yahoo! Image Detail for - http://www.icspublications.org/images/Ascent.jpg
The diagram by Juan de la Cruz has a central channel with gradations which is called the path of Mount Carmel the perfect spirit…
The path leads to “only the honor and Glory of God dwells on this mount…”
Surrounding it are nine words which we Baha’is will recognize as attributes …Peace, Joy, Happeness, Delight, Wisdom, Justice , Foritude, Charity and Piety.
You know what I’m going to suggest here …don’t you… The Terraces…
upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9e/Bah%C3%A1%27%C3%AD_Shrine_of_the_Bab_in_Haifa%2C_Israel.jpg
The Arc on Mount Carmel. A vision from the sixteenth century mystic Juan de la Cruz…
The "Glory of God dwells on this mount…"is well for Baha’is pretty self explanatory!
Baha’u’llah also revealed the Tablet of Carmel…
reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/TB/tb-2.html
S
SteveVH
Guest
Why do you believe the Bible is the word of God? On what authority do you make this claim?
Such as “I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
In other words you defer to your own understanding above those that came before you carrying the truth you now believe.
From what I have read there are probably many things with which I would agree with Baha’u’lah. But if he claims to be a light greater than Jesus none of what he says matters. It only takes a little bit of poison in a large amount of good food to kill someone.
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AveChriste11
Guest
Let me make it clear that I was formerly a Baha’i, had signed a declaration card and everything. This was 4 years ago and I have nothing against the Faith, the Administrative Order or any such thing. I’m still considered a “Friend of the Faith” officially by my Local Spiritual Assembly even though I no longer keep in touch with any of them unfortunately.
However, I posed a statement to Servant19 in the why Jews are adamant about Jesus being the Messiah. I previously did not know very much about Roman Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy. However, I started learning about the early church and began to understand the concepts of Holy Tradition and apostolic succession.
Do Baha’i’s believe that the Apostles somehow got it wrong, or were dishonest about what Jesus taught? Many of the early Bishops of the Church set at the hands and feet of the Apostles themselves. Using a similar argument to Irenaeus’ against the Gnostics, why would these Bishops withhold anything from us that we needed to know if that’s what the Apostles told them?
Do you believe the Bishops were being dishonest, or misunderstood, or were just not told the truth about the teachings of Christ? Surely they didn’t just create ideas like the Trinity out of their heads, but many of them were Greeks and using their language was the only way they knew to explain what they were taught. If someone tried to explain to St. Peter what words like “homoousios” and “hypostasis” meant he might not understand, but if you were to explain it to him in Hebrew or Aramaic then he might get it and agree that it was what he was taught also.
Surely they would have said that yes there really is no Trinity, and would have expressed Abdul Baha’s understanding which he spoke of in “Some Answered Questions”. He stated more or less that the Son and the Holy Spirit were reflections of the Father, which wasn’t what the Nicene or Athanasian Creeds stated at all.
I love the Baha’i Faith, and many Baha’i’s are some of the friendliest and warmest people I have ever met. I agreed with much of their way of thinking for a long time, attributing what seems like contradictions to a symbolic or spiritual interpretation – thereby resolving it. But this has been my main difficulty, and began the process of my unbelief in what Baha’u’llah was claiming. I certainly still think he was inspired about many things, for indeed no man can be wrong about everything for we all have the spermatikos Logos or seeds of truth within us, as St. Justin Martyr spoke of.
If anyone can help me understand this better, Baha’i or otherwise. I welcome your comments.
However, I posed a statement to Servant19 in the why Jews are adamant about Jesus being the Messiah. I previously did not know very much about Roman Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy. However, I started learning about the early church and began to understand the concepts of Holy Tradition and apostolic succession.
Do Baha’i’s believe that the Apostles somehow got it wrong, or were dishonest about what Jesus taught? Many of the early Bishops of the Church set at the hands and feet of the Apostles themselves. Using a similar argument to Irenaeus’ against the Gnostics, why would these Bishops withhold anything from us that we needed to know if that’s what the Apostles told them?
Do you believe the Bishops were being dishonest, or misunderstood, or were just not told the truth about the teachings of Christ? Surely they didn’t just create ideas like the Trinity out of their heads, but many of them were Greeks and using their language was the only way they knew to explain what they were taught. If someone tried to explain to St. Peter what words like “homoousios” and “hypostasis” meant he might not understand, but if you were to explain it to him in Hebrew or Aramaic then he might get it and agree that it was what he was taught also.
Surely they would have said that yes there really is no Trinity, and would have expressed Abdul Baha’s understanding which he spoke of in “Some Answered Questions”. He stated more or less that the Son and the Holy Spirit were reflections of the Father, which wasn’t what the Nicene or Athanasian Creeds stated at all.
I love the Baha’i Faith, and many Baha’i’s are some of the friendliest and warmest people I have ever met. I agreed with much of their way of thinking for a long time, attributing what seems like contradictions to a symbolic or spiritual interpretation – thereby resolving it. But this has been my main difficulty, and began the process of my unbelief in what Baha’u’llah was claiming. I certainly still think he was inspired about many things, for indeed no man can be wrong about everything for we all have the spermatikos Logos or seeds of truth within us, as St. Justin Martyr spoke of.
If anyone can help me understand this better, Baha’i or otherwise. I welcome your comments.
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daler
Guest
Steve,
. If I were your priest and you hadn’t seen me for a few years, but knew me, from way back, and I met you and said, “Steve, I believe that the 2nd coming has occurred and that there is no contradiction.”, you would point out to me the contradictions which you see.
. Well, I am not in that position, as I have never been a Catholic or a priest, so that quickly falls apart. The point that I am making, however, is that there are many Catholics, including priests, who have come to this conclusion. It does remain challenging, however, to explain the apparent contradictions.
. I suspect the same difficulties were experienced by Jews in the early days of the church who were confronted with various certainties in the minds of other Jews.
. I did not mean to say that the Gospels were unreliable, and that the Holy Spirit did guide them. However, it is also true that they expected the soon coming of the Lord Christ, even in their day, in their own lifetimes. So clearly, they were not clear on when He was coming.
. There is no contradiction with the “Revelation of Jesus Christ” in my view, but to those whose interpretations of what that is there remains in their minds, from their perspectives, certain contradictions. I think its a bit like putting the pieces to a giant, really giant!, jigsaw puzzle together, one which “tests” us as we go, spiritually, and is about much more than a simple visual experience.
. I am reminded of when they landed on the moon and sent back “earth rise” photos. We all gained a new perspective, one we hadn’t considered before. With the Hubble, we count a hundred billion galaxies averaging a hundred billion stars each.
. One of them, I forget which, is estimated to hold a trillion stars, 10% of them being similar to our own solar system, or a hundred billion “suns” with roughly a trillion “earths” in that one galaxy alone.
. Where my mind naturally goes is to consider life on these trillions of planets, and I must assume they have a purpose, with creatures like ourselves, having these little discussions…
at some point in their history.. This to me, although technically hypothetical, serves a purpose useful to our discussions. “IF” (let us just say “If”) the human like creatures on these planets are going through the same spiritual evolution (?) that we are, would it seem reasonable to assume that Jesus, in his earthly physical form, would visit each planet, or would it seem more probable that the one God who created all these billions of galaxies and trillions of stars and planets would manifest Himself in the forms and likenesses of their natural biology.
. Heaven is gonna be really a whole lot bigger than we expected “IF” this is whats really going on out there…
Do you care to comment on the latter part of this post? About how would the Prophets appear to them, our counterparts… (just for fun…
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daler
Guest
Steve,
Real briefly here, cause I’m invited to the local town prayer meeting, which is pretty generic, but my two cents on this is this:
. The “Manifestation” is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father (God) but through the Manifestation.
That is, we cannot get to God by ourselves, like the Sufis think (or maybe some hippies)
The Baha’i view is that in the time of Abraham, we needed to turn to Abraham. In the time of Moses, to Him. To turn towards “the Manifestation” is the “only” way to turn towards God. Also, when we turn away from the Manifestation, we are in reality turning away from God.
So the Manifestation says to us, “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man cometh to the Father but by Me.”
Does this make sense? That before Jesus lived, there was still a “Way” to the Truth and the Life, that people might be guided to God?
Later, brother
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Servant19
Guest
…and THERE lieth the beauty, my dear friend.
It is the Baha’i interpretation that UNITES ALL…absolutely ALL.
Were we to overcome the dogmatic and traditional barriers that we think are so important, then we would see that the Baha’i interpretation actually claims the undeniable, namely that God’s SPIRIT is what is intended to be communicated in these “seeming” contradictions, and when this spirit is quaffed, one can accept without denying Jesus, OR Muhammad, move on and get on with what God is really looking for, and that is selfless service towards the building of the Kingdom of God on earth. The time is now!
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Servant19
Guest
No, His name is Baha’u’llah
Baha’u’llah said that all of the Greater Prophets (not the Minor Prophets) were equal in station.
The intensity of their Revelation was different, and varied from age to age.
You can start a thread for me and I will be more than happy to contribute to it.
If I start a thread challenging Catholic beliefs here, I may get banned, so you can start one and direct us there.
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Servant19
Guest
If the fullness of faith was given, where then is the Kingdom of God? Why would Jesus lie to us and promise us the Kingdom of God and nothing happens?
The Jews have been rightfully retirned to their Promised Land and the Kingdom of God still alludes us. Where is this fullness of faith?
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Servant19
Guest
…here’s the response Ignatian, lets hope you dont say that this response was not given 10 pages down the line
The reality is that although the Catholic Church collated the Gospels and gave us what is today termed the Bible, does not in any way give it any authority to interpret that collection of Books FOR God.
God provides us with Manifestations of God to do that authortatively, just as Jesus did with the Jews and their Scriptures.
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daler
Guest
Very well put. When the Words came out of “His Truth speaking, praiseworthy mouth”, as Baha’u’llah says of Jesus, they were not “owned”, much less controlled by one group or another. They were uttered for the sake of the salvation of humanity.…here’s the response Ignatian, lets hope you dont say that this response was not given 10 pages down the line
The reality is that although the Catholic Church collated the Gospels and gave us what is today termed the Bible, does not in any way give it any authority to interpret that collection of Books FOR God.
God provides us with Manifestations of God to do that authoritatively, just as Jesus did with the Jews and their Scriptures.
. That God chose certain human instruments to repeat His Words for several decades, then finally putting pen to paper for posterity, did not suddenly create “ownership” of the Word of God. His Word is transcendent above the petty squabbles of human possessiveness and claims of self-asserted postures of importance.
. Lord, When I get to heaven can I sit on your right hand?"
zzzzzzzzzzz…
No wonder so many people turned aside and said, “Man, when you get your act together, let me know. OK?”
Meanwhile, a couple of thousand years later people are still holding costume parties as if it were Halloween, while others are on the Internet saying. “This is “my” Bible. You can’t have it!!!”
That some of us do not identify with a group of people who “think” “they” “own” God’s Word is a mark of integrity. God gave His Word to all humanity. Some people were guided to hang on to some letters before the mold got to them. (Thanks, guys
All we have left are essentially a few good crumbs of all that was said and did.
. “This is the disciple who is testifying to these things and wrote these things, and we know that his testimony is true. And there are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they were written in detail, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that would be written.”
- Status