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Servant19
Guest
Just as I expected, no answer given…
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IgnatianPhilo
Guest
Answer my question. Would you offer the same worship that you give to God, the same devotions, the exact same form of worship to Mirza Hussain? You clearly recognise a difference between the two, they are not hte same individual. If you offer the same worship to Mirza Hussain as you would to God, how can I not call that polytheism? After all Mirza Hussain is God? Right?
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Servant19
Guest
When I pray every day, I say my prayer which may start with the words “O Lord…” while at the same time focussing my attention to Baha’u’llah, no one else, nothing else…
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IgnatianPhilo
Guest
Would you prefer me to talk on a person that I haven’t read thoroughly and explain it from ignorance? You realise there are works of scholarship dedicated to understanding basil, that he has been read since he first started teaching? That he hated those who made Christ lowly and as a creature? I can only reccomend that introduction to Basil because I sincerely doubt you have read anything on the subject or any one book in his entire corpus of works. Rather you have searched or found a quote that is too your liking because you think its the same as what you believe. Metaphors of Jesus as to the sun, as to the things Basil describes are not unique to him but have been in maner of the fathers, should you then suppose Athanasius is on your side as well? Or Maybe Basil’s Brother Gregory of Nyssa is on your side? We shouldn’t speak from ignorance and I implore you not to misrepresent Basil until you can make a convincing case against the understanding Of basil since his inception.Just as I expected, no answer given…
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IgnatianPhilo
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So mirza Hussain is equal to God then right? Since you offer the exact same worship to him right? Bahai tell me that he is God, that Jesus is God also, that Moses is God also, that Muhammad must be God as well then. Bahai also tell me that hte manifestations are eternal and perfect. Sounds like polytheism to me unless you are going to distinguish your worship to the Father (as I suppose you call him) when compared to his manifestations, who seem ontollogically equal with him in every meaningful way.
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Servant19
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Servant19
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I think Ignatian you have sincere trouble understanding the DIVINE plane of the Manifestations of God.
I have mentioned and explained it, and so has arthra. You cannot fathom beyond the human and spiritual aspects. The DIVINE plane is the substance that UNIFIES all the Manifestations of God, they are still unique and distinct yet share the same DIVINE plane of existence. This plane of existence is pre-existent and is SEPARATE From the spiritual aspect of human beings.
Is this clear at all? Or are we just hitting another brick wall?
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Servant19
Guest
I would expect you to have the capacity and intellect to THINK FOR YOURSELF, not what some priest has got you to think.
I present a paragraph from St. Basil. I learnt basic English comprehension in 5th grade, enabling me to READ something and give my thoughts as to what it means, ON ITS OWN MERITS
…not jumble it up with my own prejudiced views on what it SHOULD mean…Can you do this basic task with the paragraph I quoted at all?
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daler
Guest
Now, Now, Servant. You’re thinking for yourself again… Bad Servant. Bad. Bad!!I would expect you to have the capacity and intellect to THINK FOR YOURSELF, not what some priest has got you to think.
I present a paragraph from St. Basil. I learnt basic English comprehension in 5th grade, enabling me to READ something and give my thoughts as to what it means, ON ITS OWN MERITS
Can you do this basic task with the paragraph I quoted at all?
Don’t you know how to play the game, little boy?
Its like this. When I say nod, you nod your head, OK?
When I say bow, you bow. Got it?
And when I say think, then you think, see?
After all, somebody 1800 years ago did all the thinking that ever needed to be done.
What part of that don’t you understand, Servant?
(Oh. And by the way. Learn to use the big words. You can’t get to heaven without them.
. And never mind what He said about the little children. He was just kidding…
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daler
Guest
. “Consider” the words of Baha’u’llah (or not)
. “This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing. And He bade Me lift up My voice between earth and heaven, and for this there befell Me what hath caused the tears of every man of understanding to flow. The learning current amongst men I studied not; their schools I entered not. Ask of the city wherein I dwelt, that thou mayest be well assured that I am not of them who speak falsely.”
. “Think ye, O people, that I hold within My grasp the control of God’s ultimate Will and Purpose?… Had the ultimate destiny of God’s Faith been in Mine hands, I would have never consented, even though for one moment, to manifest Myself unto you, nor would I have allowed one word to fall from My lips. Of this God Himself is, verily, a witness."
. God is not composed of matter. The physical person of Jesus is not God, nor is Baha’u’llah. They are, however, the Mouthpiece of God on earth, and when God speaks to us through them, it is His Voice, God’s Voice, not the physical person talking, which says: “I am God”.
. Understand that in the Manifestation of God are three stations. The human being, who eats, sleeps, and speaks as one human to another.
. Then there is the station of His being a Messenger of God. “These are not My words, but Him that sent Me.”
. Then there is the appearance in Them of God Himself speaking to us.
. You will see all of these aspects in the Divine Manifestations of God.
. It is a “complex”, not simple. To understand this complexity we need to comprehend the following:
. “Say: He ordaineth as He pleaseth, by virtue of His sovereignty, and doeth whatsoever He willeth at His own behest. He shall not be asked of the things it pleaseth Him to ordain. He, in truth, is the Unrestrained, the All-Powerful, the All-Wise.”
. While the Manifestations reveal the names and attributes of God and are the means by which humanity has access to the knowledge of God and His Revelation, Shoghi Effendi states that the Manifestations should “never … be identified with that invisible Reality, the Essence of Divinity itself”. In relation to Bahá’u’lláh, the Guardian wrote that the “human temple that has been the vehicle of so overpowering a Revelation” is not to be identified with the “Reality” of God.
Hence, the following:
. “When I contemplate, O my God, the relationship that bindeth me to Thee, I am moved to proclaim to all created things “verily I am God”; and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!” Baha’u’llah
. “Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God”, He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His names and His attributes, are made manifest in the world…”
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SteveVH
Guest
You do not have to keep making the same point of light coming into the world in increasing degrees of intensity, as if I just don’t understand. It is a simple concept and I get it. We would agree that God revealed himself in part, slowly, over time, through the prophets. What you fail to see is that Jesus is the culmination of all prophesy; all that God had to reveal to us was revealed at once in his Son. We are to turn our attention and our worship to Jesus and no one else.
You have failed to recognize the true Light that has come into the world. It is Jesus Christ, not Baha’u’lah. And if Baha’u’lah is leading you away from this truth then he is a false prophet. This is what bothers me the most about the Baha’i faith claiming Jesus Christ as one of its manifestations. You claim to believe in Jesus while at the same time denying his very words and the entire purpose of his life. Christ’s suffering, death and resurrection is not sufficient, somehow; we must wait for one even greater.
Jesus’ purpose in coming to this world was not to teach us a good way of life; though he certainly did that as well through his own example. The purpose of his coming was to defeat the enemy and to save us from our sins through his own suffering, death and resurrection; something we are not capable of accomplishing on our own, regardless of how virtuous a life we live.
The bottom line is that Baha’u’lah does not have holes in his hands and feet. He did not suffer and die for you and he did not overcome death. His body has long since decomposed into dust. There is only One who has done that for you and that One is Jesus. What need could we possibly have for Baha’u’lah after Christ has accomplished everything?
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daler
Guest
Steve,
. Sorry if I overstated the Light thing. There is only one Light, and that Light comes to us from God.
. I also agree that Jesus was the culmination of all prophecy which pointed to Him. Where we differ is in our understanding of further prophecy pointing to Baha’u’llah.
. You say: “all that God had to reveal to us was revealed at once in his Son”, yet He Himself says that “I have yet many things to say unto you but ye cannot bare them now. When He, the Spirit of Truth comes, “He” will guide you unto all truth”
. Please forgive me if this, too, seems redundant, for it has been mentioned before. I mean no disrespect. I also know that common Christian interpretation of this is that was fulfilled at Pentecost, for that is what some of the disciples thought. Their thoughts were recorded. However, all truth was not revealed to them. They also thought that Jesus would reappear within their own lifetimes. He did not. They were told by Him to look to Daniel the Prophet for His coming. The Books were sealed to Daniel, who himself did not know their meaning, despite asking God.
. Now consider also the words of Jesus: “But of that day and that hour knoweth no man. No, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.”
. One could look at this verse and understand it to mean that, like Daniel, the “hour” of the 2nd coming was likewise “sealed” to Jesus, for He plainly, very Plainly here, says so.
. I cannot discard this verse. I must go to the verse where He says, “Look to Daniel, the prophet”, which was given in answer to the question:
. “When shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?” Matthew 24:3
. I have “not” failed to see that the Light came into the world when Jesus appeared. I have not. I recognize that Light. That same Light, which “He” said would come again into the world “has” come, exactly as he said it would, in fulfillment of the prophecies of Daniel, which pointed both to Christ the Messiah being “cut off”, or crucified, in 34 AD, exactly 70 weeks (of years), or 490 years after the Decree to rebuild Jerusalem, which occurred in 457 BC under Artaxerxes, which began also the 2300 days (years) prophecy, which was fulfilled in 1844 AD, with the coming of the Bab.
. Hence, the same prophecies which pointed to the coming of Jesus pointed to the coming of the Bab, as well as Baha’u’llah, as foretold by Daniel the prophet, whom Jesus said to refer to.
. Briefly, time (360) times (720) and a half (180) equals 1260 years. Daniel also refers to 1280, 1290, and 1335. The Book of Revelation also refers to 3 1/2 days (years of 360 X 3/12 equals 1260) Also 42 months X 30 days equals 1260.
. The year 1260 AH “is” the year 1844 AD, which is 2300 years after 457 BC. As there was no year zero: 456 + 1844 = 2300.
. The Bab declared His Mission in 1844 AD, or 1260 AH, in “Elam”, where Daniel had his vision, and where Jeremiah said the Lord would appear to set “His Throne”, in Elam.
. Baha’u’llah declared His Mission in 1863 AD, which was 1280 AH, fulfilling Daniel’s prophecy, which Jesus said to refer to about His coming.
. 1280 AH is also 1290 years after the Revelation was first received by Muhammad.
. It all fits. Hence, the Light “reappeared”, right on schedule. The same schedule that foretold Its first appearance. There is no contradiction. This must be considered.
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daler
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PS Steve,
Baha’u’llah also suffered. Either of two hundred pound chains held Him during 4 months of imprisonment in the Black Pit of Tehran, a subterranean dungeon, during which time He experienced His first Revelations. These scars cut Him to the bone and remained all of His life. He was also tortured, bastinadoed, and twice poisoned. He was exiled and further imprisoned for 40 years.
The following may be compared to the descent of the Dove upon Jesus:
. “While engulfed in tribulations I heard a most wondrous, a most sweet voice, calling above My head. Turning My face, I beheld a Maiden—the embodiment of the remembrance of the name of My Lord—suspended in the air before Me. So rejoiced was she in her very soul that her countenance shone with the ornament of the good-pleasure of God, and her cheeks glowed with the brightness of the All-Merciful. Betwixt earth and heaven she was raising a call which captivated the hearts and minds of men. She was imparting to both My inward and outer being tidings which rejoiced My soul, and the souls of God’s honored servants. Pointing with her finger unto My head, she addressed all who are in heaven and all who are on earth, saying: ‘By God! This is the Best-Beloved of the worlds, and yet ye comprehend not. This is the Beauty of God amongst you, and the power of His sovereignty within you, could ye but understand. This is the Mystery of God and His Treasure, the Cause of God and His glory unto all who are in the kingdoms of Revelation and of creation, if ye be of them that perceive.’”
This occurred in the year 1280 AH (which was 1863 AD) as Daniel prophesied, in Elam, in fulfillment of Jeremiah 49:38
. “And I will set my throne in Elam, and will destroy from thence the king and the princes, saith the LORD”
. His Letters to the Kings are found in Summons of the Lord of Hosts, in which He admonished them and foretold their downfall, fulfilling this prophecy from His prison cell.
Beginning in September 1867, Bahá’u’lláh wrote a series of letters to the world leaders of His time, addressing, among others, Emperor Napoleon III, Queen Victoria, Kaiser Wilhelm I, Tsar Alexander II of Russia, Emperor Franz Joseph, Pope Pius IX, Sultan Abdul-Aziz, and the Persian ruler, Nasiri’d-Din Shah.
History records what happened.
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IgnatianPhilo
Guest
Are you trying to refute me or prove what I’m saying? Lets grant that the manifestations are beyond comprehension, on a divine plane and substance, that the bahai worship of God is in no way different to the worship of Mirza Hussain. Yet clearly as bahai ahve made clear to me, the manifestations are not all the same individual, they are distinct entities and obviously distinct from God the father. So whats the picture? We have a bunch of eternal, uncreated, all powerful, ineffeble entities whom are worshipped on the same level as God.
What was that called in the old days? Polytheism?
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IgnatianPhilo
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If sentences could be merely read and their intent and meaning understood immediately then i suppose there should be no trouble of us understanding each other, but there is. By the way saint Basil was a priest you know, a Bishop, who liked Monasticism (Shock), but since you found one quote out of his massive corpus you must understand him completely. Truely Basil was the first bahai and he would worship with you if he were alive huh?I would expect you to have the capacity and intellect to THINK FOR YOURSELF, not what some priest has got you to think.
I present a paragraph from St. Basil. I learnt basic English comprehension in 5th grade, enabling me to READ something and give my thoughts as to what it means, ON ITS OWN MERITS
Can you do this basic task with the paragraph I quoted at all?
All sarcasm aside, if you think to understand an author without reading all of his works (if he has a large corpus), if you think you understand him better than two thousand years of people directly in the church that which he was apart of, Better than his own brother gregory of Nyssa, you being removed from the man 1600 or so years and speaking a totally different language than the text which you quote from was originally written in, then you sir are a genius.
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arthra
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Regarding the suffering of the Manifestations:
A couple of selections from the revealed Word:
If ye be intent on crucifying once again Jesus, the Spirit of God, put Me to death, for He hath once more, in My person, been made manifest unto you. Deal with Me as ye wish, for I have vowed to lay down My life in the path of God. I will fear no one, though the powers of earth and heaven be leagued against Me. Followers of the Gospel! If ye cherish the desire to slay Muhammad, the Apostle of God, seize Me and put an end to My life, for I am He, and My Self is His Self. Do unto Me as ye like, for the deepest longing of Mine heart is to attain the presence of My Best-Beloved in His Kingdom of Glory. Such is the Divine decree, if ye know it. Followers of Muhammad! If it be your wish to riddle with your shafts the breast of Him Who hath caused His Book the Bayan to be sent down unto you, lay hands on Me and persecute Me, for I am His Well-Beloved, the revelation of His own Self, though My name be not His name. I have come in the shadows of the clouds of glory, and am invested by God with invincible sovereignty.
~ Baha’u’llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 101
*For fifty years Bahá’u’lláh faced His enemies like a mountain: all wished to annihilate Him and sought His destruction. A thousand times they planned to crucify and destroy Him, and during these fifty years He was in constant danger…
Christ, in His blessed day, in reality only educated eleven men: the greatest of them was Peter, who, nevertheless, when he was tested, thrice denied Christ. In spite of this, the Cause of Christ subsequently permeated the world. At the present day Bahá’u’lláh has educated thousands of souls who, while under the menace of the sword, raised to the highest heaven the cry of “Ya Baha’u’l-Abha”;[1]
[1 A cry used as a declaration of faith by the Bahá’ís, literally, “Oh Thou the Glory of Glories!”*]
~ Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 35*
A couple of selections from the revealed Word:
If ye be intent on crucifying once again Jesus, the Spirit of God, put Me to death, for He hath once more, in My person, been made manifest unto you. Deal with Me as ye wish, for I have vowed to lay down My life in the path of God. I will fear no one, though the powers of earth and heaven be leagued against Me. Followers of the Gospel! If ye cherish the desire to slay Muhammad, the Apostle of God, seize Me and put an end to My life, for I am He, and My Self is His Self. Do unto Me as ye like, for the deepest longing of Mine heart is to attain the presence of My Best-Beloved in His Kingdom of Glory. Such is the Divine decree, if ye know it. Followers of Muhammad! If it be your wish to riddle with your shafts the breast of Him Who hath caused His Book the Bayan to be sent down unto you, lay hands on Me and persecute Me, for I am His Well-Beloved, the revelation of His own Self, though My name be not His name. I have come in the shadows of the clouds of glory, and am invested by God with invincible sovereignty.
~ Baha’u’llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 101
*For fifty years Bahá’u’lláh faced His enemies like a mountain: all wished to annihilate Him and sought His destruction. A thousand times they planned to crucify and destroy Him, and during these fifty years He was in constant danger…
Christ, in His blessed day, in reality only educated eleven men: the greatest of them was Peter, who, nevertheless, when he was tested, thrice denied Christ. In spite of this, the Cause of Christ subsequently permeated the world. At the present day Bahá’u’lláh has educated thousands of souls who, while under the menace of the sword, raised to the highest heaven the cry of “Ya Baha’u’l-Abha”;[1]
[1 A cry used as a declaration of faith by the Bahá’ís, literally, “Oh Thou the Glory of Glories!”*]
~ Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 35*
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IgnatianPhilo
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I think the issue Arthra is whether or not their sufferring accomplishes anything. Moses died for no ones sins, Muhammad according to some sources died from being poisened by a Jewish woman, whereas Jesus not only was crucified on account for all men (to buy them) but on account of his ressurection all men will have ressurection. Jesus defeated death, whereas all other prophets, true or false have ultimately been overcome by it, except in the case of Elijah and Enoch if he may be considered a prophet. Mirza Hussain as shot, perhaps unjustly (Maybe not if he is a false prophet) but what does it merit?
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SteveVH
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Well, we do not agree because I never said that Jesus was the culmination of all prophecy which pointed to him, as if there would be further prophecy pointing to another. What I said was that all prophecy pointed to him, meaning to no other, and that he was the culmination of all prophecy. Any prophesy pointing to another would be false prophecy which is no prophecy at all.
Yes, which is based upon Scripture:
“In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word.” (Hebrews 1:1-3)
Do you believe Baha’u’lah sustains all things by his powerful word?
Jesus, in this statement, was revealing the third Person of the Trinity who would guide his Church into all truth. Now, if Christ did indeed keep his word and send the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth why would you look elsewhere? Would not that truth exist in the very Church Christ founded?
First of all, would you mind citing the verse where Jesus says "Look to Daniel? Jesus says much in answer to the question before he ever says “But of that day and hour no one knows…”. One very interesting thing he says, while speaking of this topic is this:
“Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains." (Matthew 24:4-8)
Well, all I have to say is that Jesus said that no man knows the day or the hour but you seem to believe that it can be figured out using mathematical formulas. We do not have to wonder if Christ has come again:
“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.” (Matthew 24:30-31)
and
“So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man." (Matthew 24:26-27)
It isn’t going to be a subtle event where there will be any doubt of his coming. He will send angels with a loud trumpet call. Sorry, Baha’u’lah is not the return of Jesus Christ.
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SteveVH
Guest
Many people suffer in this life. That is not unique to Jesus or Baha’u’lah. What is unique is that the passion and death of Jesus redeemed the entire world. Why? Because he was not just a mere man but rather God Himself who in his mercy satisfied Justice by offering a completely pure sacrifice of himself on behalf of sinners.
Sin is something that I have not even heard discussed in these threads. What is the Baha’i position on sin and man’s need for redemption and salvation? This may get to the crux of the matter.
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Porknpie
Guest
Hi Daler, how do you come to believe that the Glory of The Lord refers to Baha’u’llah?
Revelation 21:23-25 draws reference from Isaiah 60, a verse that the early Christians would have understood. Revelation is drawing from Isaiah…Glory and light refers to God, not Baha’u’llah…Isaiah v19 and v3 & v5 below.
“The sun shall be no more your light by day, nor for brightness shall the moon give light to you by night; but The Lord will be your everlasting light, and you God will be your glory.”
“And nations shall come to your light, and kings to to the brightness of your rising…the wealth of the nations shall come to you.”
Are you believing “He” is Baha’u’llah?
Same? “Him” is Baha’u’llah??
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