Baha'i Returns Thread: Ask Any of Many Baha'i

[daler]

I will do my best to address your concerns, but something occurs to me here. Does the Baha’i faith not believe that God is beyond human understanding? Does the Baha’i faith recognize the supernatural as well as the natural? Catholics would agree wholeheartedly that faith cannot conflict with reason.

On the other hand, there are truths which are above and beyond the physical plane; supernatural (above nature) truths of which we cannot penetrate with our finite intellect and which are not and cannot be explained by science for the simple reason that they are above science; above the natural world. Nothing is impossible for God, even if it seems impossible for man.
so Resurrection is achieved by the union of the two."

Hope this provides some explanation.

Steve,
. I want to thank you very much for both the tone and the answers which you have provided from your perspective. To me, this is an elevation of the dialogue, productive to understanding, and filled with mutual respect.

. I think that God gave us the ability to reason, a full deck of cards, and certain rules of the game, which really isn’t a game, and should not be treated as one.

. God is the Creator of both the natural and supernatural world, or reality. My understanding based upon the five senses is that the world I live in can be seen, felt, heard, tasted, smelled, etc.
. The “supernatural” world, if thats a useful term, seems to involve abstract “reality”, involves the imagination to some extent, as requires intellectual symbols which can stand for something other than the symbols themselves. By one thing, we can prove or hypothesize another, and see around corners, predict the weather, and have “credible” explanations of things.
. Bod is the Author of all Reality, and one sense that I have of the Prophets of God is that they are Guides into the higher, moral levels of Reality, that they have knowledge of that which we do not. In other words, They are coming from where we have yet to go.

. Most certainly, God is “infinitely” beyond human understanding. We cannot fathom His Mystery, nor approach His Hallowed Court.
. As you say very well here: " truths of which we cannot penetrate with our finite intellect and which are not and cannot be explained by science"

. So my thoughts are that what is “veiled” to us from the realm of the five senses can, to some degree, be “unveiled” to us through means of the rational faculties. So much of Jesus’ moral teachings were of this latter nature. He would open people’s minds with such statements as, “Ye must be born again.” or “The Kingdom of Heaven is like…”

. So part of the conclusion I reach is that He came to awaken that which is latent within us, existing in potential but not realized. The seed grows and unfolds its leaves and flowers and bare’s fruit only when exposed to the light of the sun.
. I think this is a corollary to the Spiritual Sunlight which our souls need to develop, and that part of this process of unfolding our inner potential requires thought, not simply faith. That is my opinion.
. Still, someone who is incapable of higher math, for example, or who is Mongoloid or deficient in some way is not hindered from entering the Kingdom of God. We are surely judged according to our given capacities, our realized or unrealized potential.

 

[daler]

Hi Servant. It’s interesting to read the criteria you brought up that are required for Jesus to be a Messiah. I am not too sure but how did you come to that premise? Perhaps these are from the Jewish aspect. Right?

If they are from the Jewish aspect, then you would have answers as to why Jesus could not be the Messiah of the Old Testament instead of him be the Messiah and thus why Jews do not believe in Jesus.
.

Reuben,
. It is good to review some of those prophecies pointing to Jesus. I remember speaking with a Jewish fellow about a year ago telling me some specifics as to why Jews have a problem with Jesus being the Messiah. I can’t remember very well what his objections were, but it always struck me that I couldn’t understand how they could not recognize Jesus when some of those prophecies are so specific.
. Baha’is absolutely recognize a whole bunch of Old Testament prophecies fulfilled by the coming of Christ. No argument from us…

. Where it all gets interesting, at least to me, is about the 2nd coming prophecies. Thats where the Book of Daniel comes in, Jeremiah, Micah, Isaiah, and Revelation get very interesting. There have been a number of scholars, both Christian and Baha’i, who point very clearly, and with credible logic and persuasion, to overwhelming evidence that the 2nd coming already has occurred.
. But like the Jews, who “expected” the Messiah to fulfill the literal “have it your way” Burger King scenario, they are still waiting for the One to deliver them from those who would enslave them. Thats essentially why they rejected Jesus, as I understand it.
. Yet they have already returned to their traditional homeland, as promised in the Holy Scriptures, and this is evidence that “something happened” to cause this prophecy to be fulfilled.
. The Edict of Toleration (or religious freedom, or Edict of Submission, was signed in 1844, which began the process by which the Jews, after so long, were to begin to “come home”.

. "23 March 1844 — Edict of Toleration, allowing Jews to settle in the Holy Land. The original documents are available from the Public Record Office in London, which states in one of its letters: “A translation of the edict, an acknowledgment from Stratford Canning to the Sublime Porte, and an accompanying letter from Canning, dated 23 March 1844, is in Foreign Office, Turkey, FO78/555/No.49. There are several other letters from Canning in the same volume on the question of the religious intolerance of the Turks. The draft of a letter from the Foreign Office, dated 16 January 1844, which made plain the attitude of the British Government and which provided the direct impetus for the negotiations leading eventually to the issue of the edict, is in FO78/552/No.4.”

. The Declaration of the Bab

. “On May 23, 1844 a young Persian merchant, calling Himself the Bab (the Gate) arose to proclaim the advent of a great Messenger from God.”

 

[Reuben_J]

Reuben,
. It is good to review some of those prophecies pointing to Jesus. I remember speaking with a Jewish fellow about a year ago telling me some specifics as to why Jews have a problem with Jesus being the Messiah. I can’t remember very well what his objections were, but it always struck me that I couldn’t understand how they could not recognize Jesus when some of those prophecies are so specific.

Hi daler. I understand why the Jews do not recognize Jesus. The short explanation for that is they do not have the New Testament and it is unreasonable to expect them to believe in something that their religion does not have and teach.

Personally I can say that my knowledge in my religion is quite superficial and probably many details, the deeper theological meaning escaped me. Thus one can say when knowledge is insufficient I would rely on faith. It is always a struggle; and good faith can only come from God. That is why one needs to ask for God’s grace of faith so that we believe and able perhaps to see and understand the deeper implication of our belief and the meaning of the scripture.

. Baha’is absolutely recognize a whole bunch of Old Testament prophecies fulfilled by the coming of Christ. No argument from us…

Glad to hear that.

. Where it all gets interesting, at least to me, is about the 2nd coming prophecies. Thats where the Book of Daniel comes in, Jeremiah, Micah, Isaiah, and Revelation get very interesting. There have been a number of scholars, both Christian and Baha’i, who point very clearly, and with credible logic and persuasion, to overwhelming evidence that the 2nd coming already has occurred.

Basically the Christian understanding at this point in time is that the 2nd coming has not yet come.

It will only happen on the last day where, “the dead and the living will raise up and Jesus in glory will come down in the cloud” and he will be the judge on the Day of Judgment.

. But like the Jews, who “expected” the Messiah to fulfill the literal “have it your way” Burger King scenario, they are still waiting for the One to deliver them from those who would enslave them. Thats essentially why they rejected Jesus, as I understand it.

I am not too sure about this and frankly I don’t know much about Judaism to make an educated comment.

. The Declaration of the Bab

. “On May 23, 1844 a young Persian merchant, calling Himself the Bab (the Gate) arose to proclaim the advent of a great Messenger from God.”

That is interesting.

 

[arthra]

Well, I would disagree wholeheartedly that miracles are unimportant. Christ did not just walk around performing miracles for entertainment. There was always a great sign behind each of them; something even more profound, for instance, then the fact that a man crippled for life could once again walk. Jesus had forgiven his sins and when questioned as to his authority to forgive sins (for only God could forgive sins) he asked them “Which is easier to say, your sins are forgiven or take up your mat and walk?” The miracle was the sign of his authority and the most important thing he did was to forgive the man’s sins.

Thanks for your post Steve…!

In our view miracles are important for the people that personally receive them but as “proofs” they are not reliable since most can only hear about them second hand…but I do understand that for many traditional Catholics miracles have such a central significance…for us not so central…

*"The outward miracles have no importance for the people of Reality. If a blind man receives sight, for example, he will finally again become sightless, for he will die and be deprived of all his senses and powers. Therefore, causing the blind man to see is comparatively of little importance, for this faculty of sight will at last disappear. If the body of a dead person be resuscitated, of what use is it since the body will die again? But it is important to give perception and eternal life – that is, the spiritual and divine life. For this physical life is not immortal, and its existence is equivalent to nonexistence. So it is that Christ said to one of His disciples: “Let the dead bury their dead;” for “That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”[1]
[1 Matt. 8:22; John 3:6.]

"Observe: those who in appearance were physically alive, Christ considered dead; for life is the eternal life, and existence is the real existence. Wherever in the Holy 102 Books they speak of raising the dead, the meaning is that the dead were blessed by eternal life; where it is said that the blind received sight, the signification is that he obtained the true perception; where it is said a deaf man received hearing, the meaning is that he acquired spiritual and heavenly hearing. This is ascertained from the text of the Gospel where Christ said: “These are like those of whom Isaiah said, They have eyes and see not, they have ears and hear not; and I healed them.”[1]
[1 Cf. Matt. 13:14 and John 12:40-41.]

“The meaning is not that the Manifestations are unable to perform miracles, for They have all power. But for Them inner sight, spiritual healing and eternal life are the valuable and important things.*”
(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 100)

 

[daler]

Hi daler. I understand why the Jews do not recognize Jesus. The short explanation for that is they do not have the New Testament and it is unreasonable to expect them to believe in something that their religion does not have and teach.

Personally I can say that my knowledge in my religion is quite superficial and probably many details, the deeper theological meaning escaped me. Thus one can say when knowledge is insufficient I would rely on faith. It is always a struggle; and good faith can only come from God. That is why one needs to ask for God’s grace of faith so that we believe and able perhaps to see and understand the deeper implication of our belief and the meaning of the scripture.

Basically the Christian understanding at this point in time is that the 2nd coming has not yet come.

It will only happen on the last day where, “the dead and the living will raise up and Jesus in glory will come down in the cloud” and he will be the judge on the Day of Judgment.

I am not too sure about this and frankly I don’t know much about Judaism to make an educated comment.
That is interesting.

Rueben,
. Thank you for the “plain English” reply. Much more user friendly, and I wouldn’t worry to much about having had all the “indoctrination” of any particular church, because they all “indoctrinate” those under their sway with literally thousands of schisms resulting.
. I believe that God has endowed all of us to recognize His Messengers and comprehend the mysteries to those who “Seek, and ye shall find” for He promises also “Knock and it shall be opened to you (to understand)”

Also, Keep in mind that the “most learned of the age” in the time of Christ failed to recognize Him, while a simple, lowly fisherman named Peter very much did behold the Face of His Lord when others did not.
. So it is solely on the purity of the heart that God shines His light. That is my belief which I have seen in countless blessed souls who truly have the “spirit of the loving Lord”. They may not have the whys and wherefores, the Greek and the Hebrew, but none of that is meaning sufficient to understand: “so simple a child can understand it.”
. Unless you become as little children you cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Amen!

. Baha’is believe also in these verses such as you have quoted: "“the dead and the living will raise up and Jesus in glory will come down in the cloud”, but we view them in the light of other Scripture. What does He mean by “dead”, other than those who are “spiritually dead”, as in the verse: “Let the dead bury their dead.”
. He was referring to those spiritually dead people who, though alive in a physical sense, “having eyes, but see not.” and “they have ears, but hear not”
. Put that next to “My sheep know My voice” and then His constant chastisement of the great “Leaders” of the day who failed to recognize Him. To them He said,

Matthew 12:34-37
King James Version (KJV)
34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned."

We simple folks have not been burdened with “too much learning”. This works to our advantage, as it did for Peter

 

[Servant19]

We will be able to pass through matter (if there is matter). Christ said there will be a new heaven and a new earth. And I don’t think I said we would “need” to eat and drink. Christ was demonstrating that he had a real body and was not a ghost. So I have no idea whether or not there will be walls or that we will desire to eat and drink. I have never had a glorified body. What I know is what Christ has revealed. I hope to experience it personally someday.

Thanks Steve, so theological questions arise from this belief:

1. When Jesus said "For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.” (Matthew 18:20) in what form is Jesus here with us, when we gather in His name?
2. When this new earth is formed, is there an need for ANYTHING physical?
3. If there is no need for walls, or doors, or anything, what makes you think that this glorified condition is physical at all? Since, you stress the importance of Jesus’ PHYSICAL resurrection.
4. What is the difference between the glorified body and the spirit of man?

 

[daler]

Thanks Steve, so theological questions arise from this belief:

1. When Jesus said "For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.” (Matthew 18:20) in what form is Jesus here with us, when we gather in His name?
2. When this new earth is formed, is there an need for ANYTHING physical?
3. If there is no need for walls, or doors, or anything, what makes you think that this glorified condition is physical at all? Since, you stress the importance of Jesus’ PHYSICAL resurrection.
4. What is the difference between the glorified body and the spirit of man?

I would add to this the question that if we retain any aspect of this elemental world in even a glorified body, from where does it receive its nourishment? Will we, like the story of Jesus, be required to eat fish before we have enough energy to pass through walls, ascend, and descend? Do the fish we eat have glorified bodies, too, even before they are digested? Or do we have to wait a couple of hours before passing through the walls so we don’t bump into them with our fish not yet digested.

Sorry, somethings fishy about this story. My old man could tell many a fish story, but not too sure he wouldn’t throw that one back…

then also, what about siamese twins. Who gets the body, or will they be hooked up for eternity with one heart or kidney between them?
My brother’s wife was pregnant with twins. One died in utero and was “absorbed” into the body of his brother. what happens to their common body???

Nooo, I gotta believe its still ashes to ashes and dust to dust. God can do anything, even make a heaven undetectable by anything science (or seance) can detect (or contact)
Dreams exist totally apart from physical reality. I’ve had several Near Death Experiences and left the earth, only to return. Dang! cuz it was beautiful beyond any words. so beautiful I did NOT want to come back, and when I did, was really bummed out.
Saw theeee most beautiful divine Light far, far away, which I was approaching, yet it remained so far, far away, yet indescribably beautiful… Guess I didn’t get close enough or maybe St Peter told me I had to go back and clean my boots…

 

[Reuben_J]

Rueben,
. Thank you for the “plain English” reply. Much more user friendly, and I wouldn’t worry to much about having had all the “indoctrination” of any particular church, because they all “indoctrinate” those under their sway with literally thousands of schisms resulting.

Thank you for that and you are being kind.

. I believe that God has endowed all of us to recognize His Messengers and comprehend the mysteries to those who “Seek, and ye shall find” for He promises also “Knock and it shall be opened to you (to understand)”

Also, Keep in mind that the “most learned of the age” in the time of Christ failed to recognize Him, while a simple, lowly fisherman named Peter very much did behold the Face of His Lord when others did not.

. So it is solely on the purity of the heart that God shines His light. That is my belief which I have seen in countless blessed souls who truly have the “spirit of the loving Lord”. They may not have the whys and wherefores, the Greek and the Hebrew, but none of that is meaning sufficient to understand: “so simple a child can understand it.”

. Unless you become as little children you cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Amen!

Agree with you about being like little children to understand God’s word and mysteries. I wouldn’t say this for the Jews though. Like what I said, they do not have the New Testaments.

. Baha’is believe also in these verses such as you have quoted: "“the dead and the living will raise up and Jesus in glory will come down in the cloud”, but we view them in the light of other Scripture. What does He mean by “dead”, other than those who are “spiritually dead”, as in the verse: “Let the dead bury their dead.”

. He was referring to those spiritually dead people who, though alive in a physical sense, “having eyes, but see not.” and “they have ears, but hear not”

My reaction when I hear the understanding of the Bible from adherences of different religion is often one of curiosity which I find interesting. At least from the stand point of knowing what they believe.

Of course Christians do not see the passage that way. The dead were those who have gone ‘asleep’, those who have died since the beginning of the world till the time of the last day. Maybe it can be applied to those who are ‘spiritually dead’ if they are still living that time.

“Let the dead bury their dead,” can be both allegorical and literal. Basically it is a call to follow Jesus that one has to leave everything behind and there should be no delay in doing so.

. Put that next to “My sheep know My voice” and then His constant chastisement of the great “Leaders” of the day who failed to recognize Him. To them He said,

Again the one who knows the voice of the Lord is the one who follows him; is the one who is like the little child. In of the noisy world in our lives we cannot hear and know the voice of Jesus unless we are able to focus on him and able to suppress the noise of distraction that prevents us from doing so. This is not just for the leaders but for everybody because every one of us is accountable for our own action and salvation.

Matthew 12:34-37
King James Version (KJV)
34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned."

We simple folks have not been burdened with “too much learning”. This works to our advantage, as it did for Peter

For a good tree bears good fruit, and likewise a bad tree bears bad fruit, for a tree is recognized by its fruit… .

 

[Reuben_J]

I would add to this the question that if we retain any aspect of this elemental world in even a glorified body, from where does it receive its nourishment?

I suppose the person does not have to.

Will we, like the story of Jesus, be required to eat fish before we have enough energy to pass through walls, ascend, and descend?

He was not required to eat at all. He ate with them (the disciples) for a purpose (like on the road to Emmaus) and to be with them. He does not get hungry or anything, unlike before the resurrection when he was in a human form.

Do the fish we eat have glorified bodies, too, even before they are digested? Or do we have to wait a couple of hours before passing through the walls so we don’t bump into them with our fish not yet digested.

No, not at all. Lol. We don’t have to eat fish or food. That is the beauty of in heaven when we have passed from this world.

Sorry, somethings fishy about this story. My old man could tell many a fish story, but not too sure he wouldn’t throw that one back…

Can you elaborate, my friend?

then also, what about siamese twins. Who gets the body, or will they be hooked up for eternity with one heart or kidney between them?

Some Siamese twins were successfully separated and survived, some didn’t. What is your point?

My brother’s wife was pregnant with twins*. One died in utero and was “absorbed” into the body of his brother. what happens to their common body???

That’s a good question. But what is your point in this discussion?

Nooo, I gotta believe its still ashes to ashes and dust to dust. God can do anything, even make a heaven undetectable by anything science (or seance) can detect (or contact)
Dreams exist totally apart from physical reality. I’ve had several Near Death Experiences and left the earth, only to return. Dang! cuz it was beautiful beyond any words. so beautiful I did NOT want to come back, and when I did, was really bummed out.

Saw theeee most beautiful divine Light far, far away, which I was approaching, yet it remained so far, far away, yet indescribably beautiful… Guess I didn’t get close enough or maybe St Peter told me I had to go back and clean my boots…

What we believe is our choice. We make that choice. The truth however may not agree with what we want to believe.

edit: Twins*. Every life has a soul, whether they are twins, triplets or single foetus. We believe life is at the point of conception. Should a foetus does not survive, then it is considered death like all death as it is.

 

[SteveVH]

Thanks Steve, so theological questions arise from this belief:

1. When Jesus said "For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.” (Matthew 18:20) in what form is Jesus here with us, when we gather in His name?

Well, we believe that God dwells within us. He is present in another way when two or three gather because we experience his presence in those around us. And we believe that he is present, in a very special way, in the Eucharist where we have an intimate encounter with him.
We can take this even further and say that he is present in every act of kindness or mercy, even among those who do not know him. God is present to us in many ways.

1. When this new earth is formed, is there an need for ANYTHING physical?

I have no idea. I don’t think that has been revealed. We’ll just have to wait and see.

1. If there is no need for walls, or doors, or anything, what makes you think that this glorified condition is physical at all? Since, you stress the importance of Jesus’ PHYSICAL resurrection.

What makes me think this glorified condition encompasses the physical is the example given to us by Christ. I don’t understand, but I do believe.

1. What is the difference between the glorified body and the spirit of man?

What is the difference between the human brain and the intellect? Can they be separated? Is the intellect a physical thing or a spiritual thing? Body and spirit (soul), together, make us a human being. We will not cease to be human beings when we reach heaven. This is God’s doing, not mine, and we are both speculating on something of which we have very limited knowledge. Since I have never experienced a glorified body, it would be foolishness to speculate.

 

[Servant19]

Well, we believe that God dwells within us. He is present in another way when two or three gather because we experience his presence in those around us. And we believe that he is present, in a very special way, in the Eucharist where we have an intimate encounter with him.
We can take this even further and say that he is present in every act of kindness or mercy, even among those who do not know him.

But how is this rationally possible with a physical body, that can eat, be seen and be touched, yet when it comes to fulfilling His promises Jesus is not there in that visible condition when two or three gather in His name.

When two or three gather in His name, He either is with us visibly (in a glorified body) or in His spiritual form (which begs the question, why does He need a glorified body then, because He can interact perfectly well with us in the physical world, while maintaining a spiritual Identity) OR He was lying to us when He said He would be with us.

You clearly stated that the glorified body can interact fully with the physical world, but there is not one iota of evidence in 2000 years of history that Jesus has interacted in ANY shape or form with the physical world in the form of His VISIBLE, TOUCHABLE, glorified body. Yet, He is interacting with us on a daily basis in some invisible way.

Maybe, the INVISIBLE, NON-TOUCHABLE condition is what He was actually talking about, since Jesus’ invisible, non-touchable condition can interact PERFECTLY well with the entirety of the human race, through gatherings in His name, through the partaking of the Eucharist, through miracles etc etc

Doesn’t that make much more rational sense, Steve?

 

[SteveVH]

But how is this rationally possible with a physical body, that can eat, be seen and be touched, yet when it comes to fulfilling His promises Jesus is not there in that visible condition when two or three gather in His name.

When two or three gather in His name, He either is with us visibly (in a glorified body) or in His spiritual form (which begs the question, why does He need a glorified body then, because He can interact perfectly well with us in the physical world, while maintaining a spiritual Identity) OR He was lying to us when He said He would be with us.

You clearly stated that the glorified body can interact fully with the physical world, but there is not one iota of evidence in 2000 years of history that Jesus has interacted in ANY shape or form with the physical world in the form of His VISIBLE, TOUCHABLE, glorified body. Yet, He is interacting with us on a daily basis in some invisible way.

Maybe, the INVISIBLE, NON-TOUCHABLE condition is what He was actually talking about, since Jesus’ invisible, non-touchable condition can interact PERFECTLY well with the entirety of the human race, through gatherings in His name, through the partaking of the Eucharist, through miracles etc etc

Doesn’t that make much more rational sense, Steve?

Okay, maybe I haven’t been clear. All we have to go by is the evidence that Jesus gave us when he appeared after the resurrection. All I would be doing is speculating on anything beyond that. We know that Jesus’ body can be physically present and then purely spiritual at his will. You are thinking in terms of our bodies in this natural realm. Christ is no longer subject to the laws of nature; they are subject to him. The glorified body does not restrain him in any sense of the word, and neither will we be restrained by physical laws.

 

[daler]

No, not at all. Lol. We don’t have to eat fish or food. That is the beauty of in heaven when we have passed from this world.

Can you elaborate, my friend?

Some Siamese twins were successfully separated and survived, some didn’t. What is your point?

That’s a good question. But what is your point in this discussion?

What we believe is our choice. We make that choice. The truth however may not agree with what we want to believe.

edit: Twins*. Every life has a soul, whether they are twins, triplets or single foetus. We believe life is at the point of conception. Should a foetus does not survive, then it is considered death like all death as it is.

Rueben,
. The point being made was a follow up of several posts regarding the existence of the soul as distinct from the body. Steve and I were in some discussion and this conversation continued to flow here.
. When we are in the womb, we are attached to our mother by the placenta and the umbilical cord. Both are a part of us. When we are born we shed the placenta and the umbilical cord either shrivels up naturally or is cut and tied off.
. We drink milk from our mothers at this stage until we grow our baby teeth, which in time we shed, making room for adult teeth. Eventually, we shed those, too, and the jaws which hold them, along with the skull and the rest of the body.
. The point here is that our physical body changes over time, from the fetal stage through our physical growth periods according to God’s design. It seems to me that even as we are constantly taking in nourishment, growing new skin cells, for example, and shedding the old cells, that we are never those cells.
. In other words, we aren’t the horse we rode in on. Naturally, we associate others with their bodies and they associate us with ours, as we do ourselves. That which “goes to heaven” is not these earthly cells, placenta, umbilical cord, baby teeth, adult teeth and jaws, skull and body, etc. As Paul also says “that flesh and blood can’t inherit the Kingdom of God”

. The point of all of this is that our true reality, which is our soul, occupies a physical frame concurrent with the needs of our physical environment according to successive stages of our physical development. That physical development is itself a stage process which we ultimately grow out of and no longer require, even as we no longer required the umbilical cord at a certain point to transfer nutrients.
. When our body dies, which is the mechanism for the acquisition and matriculation of nutrients, our soul survives without dependence upon this biological mechanism with which we associate ourselves and others. In other words, we are not our bodies. Our bodies do not go to heaven.

. What this requires of us is the understanding that life can exist apart from physical existence. I can live without my clothes when they are taken from me, and I can also live without my body when it is taken back to the dust from which it came.

. The further point of this leads to understanding what is meant by the words: “He entered the room, not using the doors”, as well as: “When two or more gather and make mention of Me, there I am also.”

. To say that this is still physical is a contradiction. It “limits” our reality to the physical world, assuming that we “need” a collection of molecules in the form of a human body to survive eternally. We don’t. We need them to survive physically. We don’t want to die prematurely, for that would disrupt our lives, physically and spiritually, unless, in the latter case, we sacrifice our lives for a higher purpose, such as to lay down our lives for our fellow man.

. So the trouble comes when we get the “fish story”. That is, taking literally the Gospel story that Jesus “ate fish”. Also, the touching of the wounds of His body. The whole “physical” Resurrection interpretation is called into question when He “appears” and “disappears”, and “ascends” into heaven.

continued…

 

[daler]

…The whole “physical” Resurrection interpretation is called into question when He “appears” and “disappears”, and “ascends” into heaven.

continued…

. The Baha’i position is that the Resurrection of Jesus is real, but was not physical, even though when taken at “face value” it appears to be from a literal interpretation of the Gospel accounts. Christians who have become Baha’is see the stories as allegorical, although this requires some thought and a different perspective entirely.

. My own view is that when people in a very “literal society” spoke of their experiences of “seeing” that the Reality of Jesus was “truly present” after His crucifixion and death, they were attempting to describe what that meant in terms understandable to their audience.
. The question would “naturally” be asked, “Well how can He still be alive without the body He was born with?” And to the “believers” who reported “seeing” Him, their descriptions took on common physical descriptions, essentially translated into “normal” coming and going, eating and speaking, etc.

. We Baha’is are well aware that this flies in the face of literal interpretation of the “stories” which were passed down in the Gospels, that the transformation of the nuts and bolts reality of a “physical body” into one which could appear and disappear, requires looking at things a different way.

. “Question. - What is the meaning of Christ’s resurrection after three days? Answer.- The resurrection of the Divine Manifestations are not of the body. [All that the Divine Manifestations do has] a spiritual and divine significance, and have no connection with material things.”

. “His disappearance under the earth for three days has an inner signification and is not an outward fact. In the same way, His resurrection from the interior of the earth is also symbolical; it is a spiritual and divine fact, and not material; and likewise His ascension to heaven is a spiritual and not material ascension.”

quotations from Abdul Baha

 

[Reuben_J]

But how is this rationally possible with a physical body, that can eat, be seen and be touched, yet when it comes to fulfilling His promises Jesus is not there in that visible condition when two or three gather in His name.

Just to add to what Steve said. Let be clear about this first – Jesus glorious body is the one after the resurrection. Obviously he was not human then because he had risen from the dead. Nor was he a ghost since he could be touched and seen. Obviously like Steve said, he now was not subjected to the law of nature anymore but he did what he wanted to as he like. In other word since he is not human, he was spirit – he can be visible and invisible.

The promise of Jesus being with us when we gather in his name is obviously often happens in his spirit form, remembering that God is spirit and Jesus is God. If he should appear in his glorious body form, well, that is his prerogative.

When two or three gather in His name, He either is with us visibly (in a glorified body) or in His spiritual form (which begs the question, why does He need a glorified body then, because He can interact perfectly well with us in the physical world, while maintaining a spiritual Identity) OR He was lying to us when He said He would be with us.

It is his prerogative whether he should appear to us in the visible or in the invisible form. That he appeared in the visible form after the resurrection was for specific purposes. His intended revelation still needed the visible form then. A good example is when he appeared to the apostles and showed to Thomas that indeed he was Jesus who was crucified. Another good example was on the road to Emmaus where according to the Church Tradition was an affirmation of the Eucharist. So these visible appearances were for specific purposes that were required to complete the revelation.

After the ascension there should be no more new revelation other than what had been revealed. Jesus was the same yesterday, today and forever. The promise of him being with us when we gather in his name is to be taken as truth. Like he said to Thomas, how blessed are those who do not see but yet believe. Thus we are required to believe.

You clearly stated that the glorified body can interact fully with the physical world, but there is not one iota of evidence in 2000 years of history that Jesus has interacted in ANY shape or form with the physical world in the form of His VISIBLE, TOUCHABLE, glorified body. Yet, He is interacting with us on a daily basis in some invisible way.

What more evidence do we need other than what is written in the Bible? Jesus appeared to more than 500 people after the resurrection. Thomas touched his wounds. There were people who witnessed his ascension to heaven. His promises were confirmed with the coming of the Holy Spirit in the Pentecost when the disciples were transformed from being meek and coward to boldness and empowered by the Holy Spirit with signs and wonders.

Maybe, the INVISIBLE, NON-TOUCHABLE condition is what He was actually talking about, since Jesus’ invisible, non-touchable condition can interact PERFECTLY well with the entirety of the human race, through gatherings in His name, through the partaking of the Eucharist, through miracles etc etc

Not only the INVISIBLE, NON-TOUCHABLE condition but both if he so wills them.

We will be ultimately seeing God face to face as he is, with our glorious bodies when we are together with him in His heavenly kingdom.

 

[Reuben_J]

Rueben,
. The point being made was a follow up of several posts regarding the existence of the soul as distinct from the body. Steve and I were in some discussion and this conversation continued to flow here.

Hi. I am sorry I was not in the discussion from the beginning. I just chipped in because I saw some obvious points that may need clarification. I thought I just did that.

. When we are in the womb, we are attached to our mother by the placenta and the umbilical cord. Both are a part of us. When we are born we shed the placenta and the umbilical cord either shrivels up naturally or is cut and tied off.
. We drink milk from our mothers at this stage until we grow our baby teeth, which in time we shed, making room for adult teeth. Eventually, we shed those, too, and the jaws which hold them, along with the skull and the rest of the body.
. The point here is that our physical body changes over time, from the fetal stage through our physical growth periods according to God’s design. It seems to me that even as we are constantly taking in nourishment, growing new skin cells, for example, and shedding the old cells, that we are never those cells.

Yes, medically speaking this is true. And neither this contradict anything with what Christianity believes.

Instead of cells, probably it is more specific to say DNA. Our cells can change. For example, in cancer, our cells are ‘mutated’ which caused our illness and when eventually the new ‘mutated’ cells take over we will be dead or before if the metastation is very chronic.

. In other words, we aren’t the horse we rode in on. Naturally, we associate others with their bodies and they associate us with ours, as we do ourselves. That which “goes to heaven” is not these earthly cells, placenta, umbilical cord, baby teeth, adult teeth and jaws, skull and body, etc. As Paul also says “that flesh and blood can’t inherit the Kingdom of God”

Agreed with you. The glorified bodies that go to heaven are probably different from what we have now. Perhaps the term glorified speaks for itself. We will be like God, not in his power but in his image.

. The point of all of this is that our true reality, which is our soul, occupies a physical frame concurrent with the needs of our physical environment according to successive stages of our physical development. That physical development is itself a stage process which we ultimately grow out of and no longer require, even as we no longer required the umbilical cord at a certain point to transfer nutrients.

I do not quite understand this argument. Probably you can rephrase it for easier understanding or ‘user-friendly’. As long as we live on this earth we have our physical body. When we die the physical bodies die and turn to dust. Our souls do not die and cannot die. The promise of God that at the end of time, we will resurrect in our glorious bodies. This is probably in spirit and yet bodies that we can see, not much different like Jesus after the resurrection.

. When our body dies, which is the mechanism for the acquisition and matriculation of nutrients, our soul survives without dependence upon this biological mechanism with which we associate ourselves and others. In other words, we are not our bodies. Our bodies do not go to heaven.

The glorified body which is spirit – yes. That is the uniqueness of God’s promise for us. We don’t know and we cannot know the extent of the nature of the glorified body as we cannot know the extent of God glorious nature too. We just know that we will be glorious after the resurrection in body and soul. How that come about we don’t know and we are not really required to know.

The most important thing is that we will live eternally in God’s Kingdom according to his promise for those who believe.

. What this requires of us is the understanding that life can exist apart from physical existence. I can live without my clothes when they are taken from me, and I can also live without my body when it is taken back to the dust from which it came.

. The further point of this leads to understanding what is meant by the words: “He entered the room, not using the doors”, as well as: “When two or more gather and make mention of Me, there I am also.”

Agreed.

. To say that this is still physical is a contradiction. It “limits” our reality to the physical world, assuming that we “need” a collection of molecules in the form of a human body to survive eternally. We don’t. We need them to survive physically. We don’t want to die prematurely, for that would disrupt our lives, physically and spiritually, unless, in the latter case, we sacrifice our lives for a higher purpose, such as to lay down our lives for our fellow man.

It is a misunderstanding on your part that the physical must be physical and cannot be spirit. It can be both. The example was of Jesus glorified body after the resurrection when he appeared to the disciples.

. So the trouble comes when we get the “fish story”. That is, taking literally the Gospel story that Jesus “ate fish”. Also, the touching of the wounds of His body. The whole “physical” Resurrection interpretation is called into question when He “appears” and “disappears”, and “ascends” into heaven.

I have explained to you about this. Jesus did this for a purpose, that is, it was part of the revelation. He was certainly spirit but was able to be visible and had physical form.

 

[Reuben_J]

. The Baha’i position is that the Resurrection of Jesus is real, but was not physical, even though when taken at “face value” it appears to be from a literal interpretation of the Gospel accounts. Christians who have become Baha’is see the stories as allegorical, although this requires some thought and a different perspective entirely.

Thanks for the information. I will note this. Of course this is different from Christianity position. It is both physical though not physical as in mortal living human body but one that can be touched and visible.

. My own view is that when people in a very “literal society” spoke of their experiences of “seeing” that the Reality of Jesus was “truly present” after His crucifixion and death, they were attempting to describe what that meant in terms understandable to their audience.

While this be may be true it is a generalization.

Definitely there are people who are able to discern the literal and the allegorical when needs be. The authors of the Gospels were quite clear in what they wrote and meant; and the Church understanding of the Bible is from Sacred Tradition which existed before the Bible. The Bible was required as the written scripture that was explained by the tradition.

. The question would “naturally” be asked, “Well how can He still be alive without the body He was born with?” And to the “believers” who reported “seeing” Him, their descriptions took on common physical descriptions, essentially translated into “normal” coming and going, eating and speaking, etc.

A better question would be, “why not?” Why not, he is God. Why could not he do that?

. We Baha’is are well aware that this flies in the face of literal interpretation of the “stories” which were passed down in the Gospels, that the transformation of the nuts and bolts reality of a “physical body” into one which could appear and disappear, requires looking at things a different way.

While I mean no disrespect, you Bah’ai did not write the Bible nor you know why the Bible was written as such. You only read and study the finished product and perhaps trying to read the mind of the authors. Not so for the Christians. They were the authors of the Bible. They know what they were saying and believing as far as the Bible is concerned. There is no mistake and doubt about that.

. “Question. - What is the meaning of Christ’s resurrection after three days? Answer.- The resurrection of the Divine Manifestations are not of the body. [All that the Divine Manifestations do has] a spiritual and divine significance, and have no connection with material things.”

You know, in a sense that is right. We say ‘body’ for want of better word.

. “His disappearance under the earth for three days has an inner signification and is not an outward fact. In the same way, His resurrection from the interior of the earth is also symbolical; it is a spiritual and divine fact, and not material; and likewise His ascension to heaven is a spiritual and not material ascension.” quotations from Abdul Baha

What is important is that there was the resurrection, not the number of days Jesus was resurrected after death. The three days is mainly for the fulfillment of the prophecy. As Jonah was three days in the fish belly before he was released and so was Jesus three days dead before he rose again.

 

[SteveVH]

Just to add to what Steve said. Let be clear about this first – Jesus glorious body is the one after the resurrection. Obviously he was not human then because he had risen from the dead. Nor was he a ghost since he could be touched and seen. Obviously like Steve said, he now was not subjected to the law of nature anymore but he did what he wanted to as he like. In other word since he is not human, he was spirit – he can be visible and invisible.

Reuben, I must challenge the statement that you made that “Obviously he was not human then because he had risen from the dead”. When Jesus rose from the dead he rose with the body which he assumed when he came to earth, complete with the wounds he had suffered. After the resurrection this body had been glorified, changed as to its properties, no longer subject to the laws of nature. But he never gave up his humanity. He is still the God-man. The same will be true for us, concerning our human nature. We will not cease to be human once we are resurrected. We will be humans with a glorified body. Maybe this will help:

From the Catechism:

"The unity of body and soul is so profound that one has to consider the soul to be the ‘form’ of the body: i.e. it is because of its spiritual soul that the body made of matter becomes a living, human body; spirit and matter, in man, are not two natures united, but rather their union forms a single nature." (CCC par 365)

Jesus assumed and retained this human nature as well as remaining divine. He did not shed his human nature after the resurrection nor when he ascended to the Father.

 

[Reuben_J]

Reuben, I must challenge the statement that you made that “Obviously he was not human then because he had risen from the dead”. When Jesus rose from the dead he rose with the body which he assumed when he came to earth, complete with the wounds he had suffered. After the resurrection this body had been glorified, changed as to its properties, no longer subject to the laws of nature. But he never gave up his humanity. He is still the God-man. The same will be true for us, concerning our human nature. We will not cease to be human once we are resurrected. We will be humans with a glorified body. Maybe this will help:

From the Catechism:

"The unity of body and soul is so profound that one has to consider the soul to be the ‘form’ of the body: i.e. it is because of its spiritual soul that the body made of matter becomes a living, human body; spirit and matter, in man, are not two natures united, but rather their union forms a single nature." (CCC par 365)

Jesus assumed and retained this human nature as well as remaining divine. He did not shed his human nature after the resurrection nor when he ascended to the Father.

Hi Steve. I mean he was spirit because he had risen from the dead. I said he had a body which is a glorious body. Remember Mary Magdelene did not recognize him on that fateful morning at the tomb and yet that was Jesus who spoke to him. So he was not exactly in his human body as per before the resurrection.

The Church is right to mean that he resurrect as body and soul but certainly this body now is not exactly the same as the one before the resurrection and yet it was still a body.

I would say CCC 365 is saying that a human is both body and soul. This does not contradict the person of Jesus.

 

[SteveVH]

Hi Steve. I mean he was spirit because he had risen from the dead. I said he had a body which is a glorious body. Remember Mary Magdelene did not recognize him on that fateful morning at the tomb and yet that was Jesus who spoke to him. So he was not exactly in his human body as per before the resurrection.

The Church is right to mean that he resurrect as body and soul but certainly this body now is not exactly the same as the one before the resurrection and yet it was still a body.

I would say CCC 365 is saying that a human is both body and soul. This does not contradict the person of Jesus.

My only point is that receiving a glorified body does not translate into losing our humanity. We are human with a glorified body. Christ appeared to the Apostles complete with the wounds he had suffered in order to show them that it was really him and not someone else.

"…this authentic, real body possesses the new properties of a glorious body: not limited by space and time but able to be present how and when he wills; for Christ’s humanity can no longer be confined to earth and belongs henceforth only to the Father’s divine realm. For this reason too the risen Jesus enjoys the sovereign freedom of appearing as he wishes: in the guise of a gardener or in other forms familiar to his disciples, precisely to awaken their faith." (CCC par 645)