Baha'i Returns Thread: Ask Any of Many Baha'i

[daler]

There is no need to create a dichotomy. The Catholic both/and is applicable here.

Although I take exception of the use of the word “magician” to Moses. He was given the supernatural power to convert a staff into a snake.

Right back at 'cha!

PR I think this is the crux of the matter. Either the Prophets of God educate and transform through the “Words” which come from God, which releases a divine power to change us into truly spiritual Samaritans, as Jesus taught, which alone is sufficient proof of their Divine Identity and Purpose, or they are merely “Magicians” who “prove” that they are from God by the superhuman “tricks” they can pull off.

I don’t believe Moses was a “magician”. Thats just the point! He led the people through the wilderness of error and divinely educated them, “taming” their spirits from animalistic behaviors to angelic souls.

. What summarizes the properties of, and distinguishes the Divine Manifestations of God from mere mortals is the power of Their Words upon those who hear them.

. “The vitality of men’s belief in God is dying out in every land; nothing short of His wholesome medicine can ever restore it. The corrosion of ungodliness is eating into the vitals of human society; what else but the Elixir of His potent Revelation can cleanse and revive it? Is it within human power to effect in the constituent elements of any of the minute and indivisible particles of matter so complete a transformation as to transmute it into purest gold? Perplexing and difficult as this may appear, the still greater task of converting satanic strength into heavenly power is one that We have been empowered to accomplish. The Force capable of such a transformation transcendeth the potency of the Elixir itself. The Word of God, alone, can claim the distinction of being endowed with the capacity required for so great and far-reaching a change.”

Baha’u’llah

 

[daler]

There is no miracle in getting 5000 people to share.

That’s a natural event, prompted by rational discourse. It makes sense to share what you have with others.

Rather, a miracle is a supernatural event, in that Jesus transcended the natural laws of science and created something out of nothing. And, it pre-figures the Eucharist.

. I would invite you to the Pettus Bridge in Selma, Alabama. If Jesus Himself showed up as a black man marching next to Dr Martin Luther King, white Christians would have lynched Him.

The first march took place on March 7, 1965 — known as “Bloody Sunday” — when 600 marchers, protesting the death of Jimmie Lee Jackson and ongoing exclusion from the electoral process, were attacked by state and local police with billy clubs and tear gas. The second march was held the following Tuesday, and resulted in 2,500 protesters turning around after crossing the Edmund Pettus Bridge.

The third march started March 16. The marchers averaged 10 miles (16 km) a day along U.S. Route 80, known in Alabama as the “Jefferson Davis Highway”. Protected by 2,000 soldiers of the U.S. Army, 1,900 members of the Alabama National Guard under Federal command, and many FBI agents and Federal Marshals, marchers arrived in Montgomery on March 24 and at the Alabama State Capitol on March 25.[1]

Please view the photographs and remember “those days”…

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selma_to_Montgomery_marches

 

[Reuben_J]

Reuben,
. I can’t tell for sure what you are responding to about “reinventing the wheel.” Was this addressing my question about the story of Moses and His staff?

No, it didn’t exactly.

Oh, I am so sorry. I misunderstood you. I was so engrossed with the subject of Jesus bodily resurrection and I thought you were suggesting that I discard for a while my traditional understanding from my Church of that subject and to relook at it from another angle, ***“threw down the staff of their twisted logic which allowed them to enslave others according to their ideas of supremacy and “divine rights” to own people, etc”, “Because in some parts of the world you have to dig the truth out of the ways things are said, rather than them simply handing it all to you. This requires thought and the appliance of soul searching, conscience wrestling, etc” ***

So you were after all really bringing up the topic of Moses and Pharaoh. My bad.

 

[Reuben_J]

. For me, my ongoing difficulty with accepting “face value” literal interpretation is that it genuinely rejects metaphorical understanding and intention in the writers of books, traditions, and the recording on ancient oral traditions.
. It is historically evident that most, if not all cultures, employ myth and metaphor in the telling of their tales and traditions, often intending moral truths to be conveyed in this process.
. Of all the cultures in the world which have long histories of mythical tales and metaphorical usage in their traditions, it does not appear logical to me that the Jewish people would not be among them.

. So if I may ask you, are you satisfied with the face value of Moses’ staff being turned into a literal snake which ate the other fellow’s snake, which was originally a staff?

. I mean no offense to your intelligence by asking this question. I am just wanting to know where you are coming from.

Thank you, daler

I would like to share with you my attitude (and probably true to most Catholics) towards Sacred Scripture.

All Scripture is one book, pointing to Christ.
Typology: Old testament “types,” or prefigurations of Christ, anticipate His redemptive work.
The “New Testament is hidden in the Old, the Old Testament revealed in the New.”

There are many “senses” of Scripture:
Literal sense – Historical meaning of the text (that is, the meaning expressed by the words themselves) “All other senses … are based on the literal.”

Spiritual senses are
(a) Allegorical – the text’s significant to Christ, oriented to past by faith.
(b) Moral – text’s significance to our lives of faith, oriented to present in charity.
(c) Anagogical – the text’s significance with regard to eternal things oriented to future hope.

So am I satisfied with the face value of Moses’ staff being turned into a literal snake which ate the other fellow’s snake, which was originally a staff?

Yes, I would first take the literal sense as the miracle mentioned had a purpose from God. “This is so that they may believe that the LORD, the God of their fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob—has appeared to you.” Exo 4:5

Secondly, one cannot discount the allegorical, moral and anagogical senses to that story too. The account of the Israelites being enslaved by the Eygptians, their deliverance from them, their escape through the parted Red Sea, their sojourn in the desert and their return to the promised land (of milk and honey) also can be seen from the perspective of Christ bringing redemption (salvation) to our lives as well.

Hope that answers your question. - Understand the literal sense first and then see its ‘implication’ in the light of God saving plan for us. So it may not just stop at the literal sense but more.

 

[Reuben_J]

May I make an observation to your comments here my Christian friend.

You speak of an obvious chasm between our beliefs, but reality I am sure it is not all that great. You speak of Sacred Tradition and the Bible, with great respect I feel you need to separate the two, firstly The Bible we as Baha’is would defend against any who would speak ill of it etc., but saying that the problem we see is in the translations of passages from the Bible, here lies the problem leading to some of your Sacred Traditions.

Now we are followers of Baha’u’llah, we of course seeing in Him the sacred, seeing in Him what we know of God, the same with Jesus in Him the people of His day and up to now, people can get an understanding of God. Now you may not wish to accept Baha’u’llah in the same light as Christ, this is OK with us we are used to this stance.

But our understanding of the Bible of course is guided by the explanations of The Bab and Baha’u’llah who we see as the twin Manifestations of God for this day, the day foretold in the old Testament. This is the reason we at times see things a little different, Christ Himself told of this new knowledge coming, that you may refuse to accept is Ok by me, we are all responsible for our own belief, I just wish to see us all treat with respect each other and our beliefs. This thread is about people asking the Baha’is of their belief, that is wonderful, but it should never be the cause of anger and accusations of telling each other that one is false or insinuating lies etc, which I see some doing.

If someone refuses to believe what the Baha’is say, then yes declare that, and then walk away, God has not created religion for the cause of division, but for the world of man to find peace and love.

Thank you for taking note of my post. As for our differences respectively, I think Ronyodish’s posts #443, #444 and #445 articulate this very well. He has taken time to explain them which for the most part I agree with his rendering of the subject. I suggest you go through them again and to look at them objectively especially from a person who do not share your belief. Sometimes the truth can be hard but in no way it is meant to be disrespectful.

I must say Reuben I have found your questioning polite and good, you are an example of His Holiness Christ, thank you, I have just tried to explain a little more clearly to all.

Thank you for being so kind in your remark.

I try to be mindful of the Forum rule. Generally speaking we are reactive people though many of us can control ourselves and act very mature. I think the Baha’i posters here are polite thus the reciprocating response.

 

[Reuben_J]

Just reading the responses from PRMerger and Reuben regarding witnesses to the resurrection, and I see that you contradict each other.

Can I have the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth please your honor

We should have joy in these threads. A joke here and there fosters heightened spirit
God LOVES laughter!

Yes, your honor, I will speak the truth and God helps me. Lol.

On a serious note, I don’t see any contradiction in our posts. Basically they (the posts) were affirming the Gospels writers as witnesses to the resurrection. I did make a little qualification in mentioning Paul and Luke but that was because I wanted to avoid argument on Paul. Even then my main contention that the writers of the Gospels were witnesses is achieved or that its truth (the resurrection) is being verified.

There is a story of when the Holy Family of Baha’u’llah had just arrived in the Prison City of Akka, having followed Baha’u’llah from country to country, prison to prison during His 40 year imprisonment. The night they arrived, they were allowed to visit Baha’u’llah and spend some time with Him beside His prison cell.

That night, the family were so full of joy, so happy, laughed so incredibly hard, that Baha’u’llah had to tell them to STOP, for fear of the guards thinking that they had all gone crazy!! LOL (I just love that recollection of Baha’u’llahs daughter)

What a wonderful story we have to draw on to cheer the heart during times of immense hardship. God truly loves laughter!!

What a wonderful story in that they could be positive and found joy in the midst of a very bad situation (in prison). Indeed laughter is the elixir of happy hearts.

 

[PRmerger]

Yes, your honor, I will speak the truth and God helps me. Lol.

On a serious note, I don’t see any contradiction in our posts.

Indeed.

For something to be a contradiction one person needs to posit “I believe [A] is true” and the other person needs to say, “I believe [not-A] is true”. That’s the definition of contradiction.

So if I said that I believe John was a witness to the Resurrection, you would need to say, “I believe that John was not a witness to the Resurrection” for our posts to be “contradictory”.

And, of course, you said nothing at all like that.

 

[PRmerger]

PR I think this is the crux of the matter. Either the Prophets of God educate and transform through the “Words” which come from God, which releases a divine power to change us into truly spiritual Samaritans, as Jesus taught, which alone is sufficient proof of their Divine Identity and Purpose, or they are merely “Magicians” who “prove” that they are from God by the superhuman “tricks” they can pull off.

Yes. This is indeed an either/or option. Either the Prophets are the Voice of God, or they are merely magicians.

I don’t believe Moses was a “magician”.

Exactly right.

Thats just the point! He led the people through the wilderness of error and divinely educated them, “taming” their spirits from animalistic behaviors to angelic souls.

Indeed.

He was a prophet, and** not **a magician.

Not sure how that relates to a false dichotomy of whether the story of Moses turning the staff into snakes ought to be interpreted literally or allegorically.

The Catholic both/and appears to be applicable here.

 

[PRmerger]

. I would invite you to the Pettus Bridge in Selma, Alabama. If Jesus Himself showed up as a black man marching next to Dr Martin Luther King, white Christians would have lynched Him.

The first march took place on March 7, 1965 — known as “Bloody Sunday” — when 600 marchers, protesting the death of Jimmie Lee Jackson and ongoing exclusion from the electoral process, were attacked by state and local police with billy clubs and tear gas. The second march was held the following Tuesday, and resulted in 2,500 protesters turning around after crossing the Edmund Pettus Bridge.

The third march started March 16. The marchers averaged 10 miles (16 km) a day along U.S. Route 80, known in Alabama as the “Jefferson Davis Highway”. Protected by 2,000 soldiers of the U.S. Army, 1,900 members of the Alabama National Guard under Federal command, and many FBI agents and Federal Marshals, marchers arrived in Montgomery on March 24 and at the Alabama State Capitol on March 25.[1]

Please view the photographs and remember “those days”…

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selma_to_Montgomery_marches

Not sure how this follows from my comment that 5000 people sharing their food is not a supernatural event.

 

[Reuben_J]

Indeed.

For something to be a contradiction one person needs to posit “I believe [A] is true” and the other person needs to say, “I believe [not-A] is true”. That’s the definition of contradiction.

So if I said that I believe John was a witness to the Resurrection, you would need to say, “I believe that John was not a witness to the Resurrection” for our posts to be “contradictory”.

And, of course, you said nothing at all like that.

Sometimes the difference could be just a matter of literary style or in a different approach to the same subject.

 

[Reuben_J]

Hi Reuben

Just a quick one.

Wouldn’t you say that the world would benefit from divine guidance on how to resolve this church vs state dichotomy and how we can live forever under the banner “The Kingdom is Gods”?

But that is not how it work with religion ( I am speaking from the Christian’s perspective) though Islam favors something like that or specially divine law to govern societies and nations.

Christians are satisfied that we are ‘visitors’ in this world. We only live here temporarily. Our real home is in the next. Thus we are ‘in the world but not of the world’. How the world is managed does not interest us, uh oh, don’t misunderstand me because we are called to be obedient to the authority.

Christians first and foremost are to seek the Kingdom of God and everything else will be given to them. I have given the example of Ceasar and God – the world and the spiritual. We are therefore more interested in how we live our lives (righteously as how we are called) and by doing so be light to the world as Jesus is; and so to change the world by our lives, our words and action until we leave this world to the next.

The objective is of course to establish the Kingdom of God here on earth. Yet we know that the enemy is also working against us. That if the wheat must grow, then we should allow the darnel which the enemy planted in the night, to grow together until harvest time when the separation would be done.

I think the purpose of religion is related strongly to creating a better world, otherwise why would there be such a strong emphasis on service, godly deeds, Good Samaritan type works etc etc?

Yes, it does in a way. A good Christian for example, should make the world a better place to live in. Just imagine if all the people are good Christians. If the local civil servants, mayor, congressman and even the President are ‘good’ Christians, it will certainly result in a better world to live in.

If it was just about faith and reading the Word of God alone, it would be fruitless, right?

Yup. It must be translated into thought, words and deed.

 

[Reuben_J]

. So if I may ask you, are you satisfied with the face value of Moses’ staff being turned into a literal snake which ate the other fellow’s snake, which was originally a staff?

Just an addition to my post #463 regarding this.

Here Moses performed a miracle (by the power of God). From here we can also observe and learn among other things, that miracle though not strictly so, is one of the marks of a true prophet.

 

[Reuben_J]

Rony, I am confused. Jesus on several occasions called Himself a Prophet. Can you clarify why He would do that and deceive people in this manner, if that’s not what He was?

Jesus also said that he is the Son of Man. He also agreed that he is the Son of the living God. And he is right on every one of them.

 

[daler]

What a wonderful story in that they could be positive and found joy in the midst of a very bad situation (in prison). Indeed laughter is the elixir of happy hearts.

. What I remember growing up on the Sioux Reservation among the extreme poverty so common among the Lakota people is that they could be freezing, down to their last bean, with no buffalo or even a rabbit in sight and everybody feeling low and without hope. Then, invariably, someone would crack a joke and the whole lot would bust out laughing. Thats what kept them going. Home on the range. Yahoo!!

 

[ronyodish]

I also hereby declare to you that Baha’u’llah IS Christ in His Second Coming

If you reject this proposition, and are expecting Christ to come down literally as a glorified body, how would you know it is Him, since you have never seen Him before?

Lastly, what if the Chirch, the Body of Christ ITSELF provides false teachings? How do you reconcile these lapses of godliness from the Church itself?

Servant19,

I reject this proposition which teaches that Baha’u’llah is Christ in His second coming! In the name of the one and only Lord Jesus Christ, I reject this false prophet Baha’u’llah and his false doctrine.

As the Lord Jesus taught us: “Then if any one says to you, Lo, here is the Christ!' or There he is!’ do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. Lo, I have told you beforehand” (Matt. 24:23-25).

We will know it is Him because it will be a public event, at the end of time, at the general judgment. The whole world will know that the Judge of mankind has come to judge the living and the dead.

As the Lord Jesus taught us: “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left” (Matt. 25:31-33).

The Church is protected by the Holy Spirit from errors. This is called the teaching of Infallibility, where the Teaching Office (Magisterium), which is composed of the Pope and the Bishops in full communion with him, is protected by the Holy Spirit from teaching publically any errors in Faith and Morals.

This is different from sinning, whereby any member, including the Pope, can fall into. The bishops of the Church can fall into various sins, but when the body of Bishops is in full communion with each other, and with their head Bishop (Pope), they can never publically fall into erroneous teachings on Faith and Morals, due to the power and protection of the Holy Spirit.

 

[ronyodish]

Continued…

Where do the words “Jesus is not the Son of God incarnate” appear in the Quran?

I will tell you why the Divine and human aspects of Christ can be separated. It’s because His Divine aspect existed eternally in the past, yet His human aspect was created, by cellular proliferation in the womb of His Blessed Mother 2000 years ago. Did anyone on earth ever witness or know about Jesus before 2000 years ago? Was there any record of a man named Jesus in the year 10BC? No, the DIVINE aspect of Christ creates human versions of Itself, it becomes flesh as it were, and can become flesh AS MANY TIMES AS IT LIKES THROUGHOUT HISTORY.

It is your test from God to recognize that Divine aspect, no matter what human form it may take 

Look here for the verses in the Qur’an which deny the Trinity, and deny the Incarnation:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_view_of_the_Trinity

I reject any teaching which says that the Divine and Human natures of Christ can be separated. The orthodox teaching of the Church is that the Union is without division, without separation, without confusion, and without change.

Prior to the Incarnation, the Son did not have a human nature, but since the Incarnation, the Son has added to Himself a human nature. This is not a matter of separation; it is simply a matter of a non-existence of a human body and soul prior to the Incarnation, and the existence of a human body and soul since the Incarnation. So, since the Incarnation, there has never been a separation between the Son and His human nature.

As far as the creation of the human nature, yes, the human nature was created by the Son Himself, and assumed it unto Himself, and made it His own, about 2000 years ago. The ancient people on earth did not know about, or witness, or have records of, Jesus before His Incarnation, because He hasn’t incarnated yet. The Jewish people, especially, did know that the Messiah was coming, because He was prophesied in their Scriptures, but they didn’t know when it would happen. All the other nations on earth simply reached out to God, or usually several gods, to the best of their understanding, until the Son was incarnated and revealed as Jesus who brought the Gospel to the nations by means of His Apostles. All the ancient religions were a preparation for the Gospel, and the Gospel is for all people, who are all called to be baptized and become members of the Body of Christ.

This all occurred one time in history; the Divine Son’s incarnation as Jesus Christ, the Word becoming flesh and dwelt among us, happened one time and one time only in history. This same Son and Lord Jesus Christ will come again at the second coming. There has been no other times in history when the Divine Son became flesh, so people like Muhammad, Baha’u’llah, and any other false Manifestation is not the true incarnation of the Divine. It is, therefore, not a test from God for us to submit to these false Manifestations as if they were the various human forms of the Divine. Instead, it is the evil one who attacks the True Faith and makes men submit to false prophets such as Muhammad and Baha’u’llah. I urge you to reject these false prophets, and turn only to Jesus as the one and only true Son of God.

Rony, I am confused. Jesus on several occasions called Himself a Prophet. Can you clarify why He would do that and deceive people in this manner, if that’s not what He was?

Yes, Jesus is a Prophet, but not only a Prophet. He is a Priest, but not only a Priest. He is a King, but not only a King. Saying that Jesus is a Prophet is not a deception to anyone, provided that one understands that Jesus is more than just being a Prophet. He is ultimately God the Son of God the Father. He prophesied about His own passion, death, and resurrection, and then fulfilled the prophecy, which no mere Prophet can do that. This tells us that this Jesus was no ordinary Prophet like any other Prophet before him. So, He is indeed a Prophet, and much more than that.

I wish you the best, take care, and God bless!

Rony

Note to my fellow Catholic brethren: I will be busy in the next coming weeks with various things that I have to do, and so my presence on the forums will be limited. I ask all my fellow Catholic brethren, if you wish, to pick up and answer any further responses that may occur from this dialogue with Servant19. God bless!

 

[daler]

Not sure how this follows from my comment that 5000 people sharing their food is not a supernatural event.

PR To me, the greatest miracle of all is that a Prophet of God, whichever One He may be, can take the sorry lot of humanity and bring the “humanity” out of us. That, to me, is the surest sign of “Divinity”.

There are reasons why Jesus, for example, told the story of the good Samaritan. Its because people did not really “see” most of humanity as humanity. It is also clear that this blindness has persisted. Hence, the great curse of racism which has blinded much of humanity to much of humanity.

To take a batch of humans and actually get them to expand the comfort zone of their limited social, racial, cultural, and religious identity and extend their “humanity” to other members of humanity is an act of God!! Indeed, we are unable to elevate ourselves but by the example and teachings of the Prophets, in whatever age. They make us “see” ourselves and others in a new light.

What we require as “potential” humans, assuming that humans is a complementary term, is some Force which is above and beyond us to get us to become “ourselves”, in the highest sense of potential: moral, spiritual, and social.

We need the catalyst of the divine bestowal to fertilize and make happen the growth of the human soul. The Holy Spirit comes to us through the Portal of the Prophets, or Manifestations of “God”, Who are Themselves the “Vehicle” of providence and the means by which God’s Words reach us and penetrate our hardened hearts.

. " “Religious fanaticism and hatred,” Bahá’u’lláh warned over a century ago, “are a world- devouring fire, whose violence none can quench. The Hand of Divine power can, alone, deliver mankind from this desolating affliction.”

 

[daler]

Continued…

Look here for the verses in the Qur’an which deny the Trinity, and deny the Incarnation:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_view_of_the_Trinity

Rony,
. You have done a wonderful service by posting this Wikipedia link. Too often people speak from ignorance, filling the void with untruths. It is much, much better to investigate the truth for ourselves, educating ourselves, as to the actual “position” of the beliefs of others.

. To me, these verses from the Quran exalt and elevate the station of God in a manner harmonious with Jesus’ own words:

. “My Father is Greater than I.”

. I would be denying the Holiness of Christ by saying that He is Himself “equal” to God when He Himself says He is not.

. This is not creating disrespect or disparaging the lofty station of Jesus, the Christ. Not in any sense whatsoever. Rather, it is taking “Him” at “His” word. It would be blaspheme to do otherwise!

. When He, Jesus, said: “These are not My words, but Him that sent Me.” He is describing Himself as the “Messenger” of God, not God Himself, for God is, in Jesus’ own words, “Greater” than Him…

. I believe that for whatever historical or theological reasons, people have created a sort of expediency in the concept of “Three Gods in One.” There is a misunderstanding inherent in the terms and a bending of the proper use of the rules of logic which was for the cohesiveness of the group and there was an agreement to settle the differences, at the Council of Nicaea, I believe, to pacify the pantheists and the monotheists with some sort of compromise.

. The God of Abraham was One God.
. The God of Moses was One God.
. The God of Jesus was One God.
. The God of Muhammad was One God.
. The God of Baha’u’llah is One God.

. For the sake of understanding the Muslim position, I would very strongly urge everyone reading these posts to actually read and consider what Rony posted, for then the position, wether agreed to or disagreed to, would at least by analyzed and understood.

Here it is again:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_view_of_the_Trinity

 

[daler]

As the Lord Jesus taught us: “Then if any one says to you, Lo, here is the Christ!' or There he is!’ do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. Lo, I have told you beforehand” (Matt. 24:23-25).

We will know it is Him because it will be a public event, at the end of time, at the general judgment. The whole world will know that the Judge of mankind has come to judge the living and the dead.

As the Lord Jesus taught us: “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left” (Matt. 25:31-33).

The Church is protected by the Holy Spirit from errors. This is called the teaching of Infallibility…

Indeed, if any “one” says “Here is the Christ, or there is the Christ, Do not believe Him.”

. But if “He” says: “Here I am!” Then we are to believe Him.

. He saith, and His Word is the Truth, “My sheep know My voice.”

. Those of us who identify ourselves as Baha’is are testifying to hearing “His” voice.

. "John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me”

. We are following “Him”, and testifying to you that He has come. We are being imprisoned, tortured, and killed in the Land where Daniel had his visions of the Lord’s coming. i.e., Elam.

. This is where Jeremiah said "The Lord shall set His throne in “Elam”.

. How many of us must be tortured, imprisoned, and killed for you to take us seriously enough to investigate this stupendous claim?

. Luke 21:24 says plainly:

“Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people; and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.”

My friends, they are imprisoning women with their newborn infants! Chopping off heads! Denying all manner of rights to the people of Baha… in Elam… where Daniel had his vision. Jesus Himself said Look to Daniel the Prophet for My coming. Why don’t you look? Are you too comfortable? I was comfortable, too, until I looked. I was one of you, saying what you are saying. I was like Saul. Now I am like Paul.

“Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.” Revelation 3:20

. “Say: We, in truth, have opened unto you the gates of the Kingdom. Will ye bar the doors of your houses in My face? This indeed is naught but a grievous error…” Baha’u’llah

. I invite all of you to read the following Tablet prayerfully and, having done so, tell me whether or not you hear “His” voice:

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/TB/tb-3.html

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Rony,
. You have done a wonderful service by posting this Wikipedia link. Too often people speak from ignorance, filling the void with untruths. It is much, much better to investigate the truth for ourselves, educating ourselves, as to the actual “position” of the beliefs of others.

. To me, these verses from the Quran exalt and elevate the station of God in a manner harmonious with Jesus’ own words:

. “My Father is Greater than I.”

. I would be denying the Holiness of Christ by saying that He is Himself “equal” to God when He Himself says He is not.

. This is not creating disrespect or disparaging the lofty station of Jesus, the Christ. Not in any sense whatsoever. Rather, it is taking “Him” at “His” word. It would be blaspheme to do otherwise!

. When He, Jesus, said: “These are not My words, but Him that sent Me.” He is describing Himself as the “Messenger” of God, not God Himself, for God is, in Jesus’ own words, “Greater” than Him…

. I believe that for whatever historical or theological reasons, people have created a sort of expediency in the concept of “Three Gods in One.” There is a misunderstanding inherent in the terms and a bending of the proper use of the rules of logic which was for the cohesiveness of the group and there was an agreement to settle the differences, at the Council of Nicaea, I believe, to pacify the pantheists and the monotheists with some sort of compromise.

. The God of Abraham was One God.
. The God of Moses was One God.
. The God of Jesus was One God.
. The God of Muhammad was One God.
. The God of Baha’u’llah is One God.

. For the sake of understanding the Muslim position, I would very strongly urge everyone reading these posts to actually read and consider what Rony posted, for then the position, wether agreed to or disagreed to, would at least by analyzed and understood.

Here it is again:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_view_of_the_Trinity

The trinity is not “Three Gods in one” and if you want to suppose that nicea’s decree wanted to pacify pagans and pantheists I challange you to show that.