Baha'i Returns Thread: Ask Any of Many Baha'i

[Jcc1960]

arthra and Jcc seem to be saying contradictory things.

One of you is positing that the highest station is being in the presence of God, and the other is arguing that being in the presence is NOT the highest station…that we progress eternally into infinity.

Which is the correct explication of the Baha’i faith?

No, there is no contradiction. The highest station is being in the presence of God, and our soul may progress eternally while in the presence of God. We do not merge with God, but we can become ever closer.

This is the last quotation that Athra cited:

“For example, Peter cannot become Christ. All that he can do is, in the condition of servitude, to attain endless perfections; for every existing reality is capable of making progress. As the spirit of man after putting off this material form has an everlasting life, certainly any existing being is capable of making progress; therefore it is permitted to ask for advancement, forgiveness, mercy, beneficence, and blessings for a man after his death, because existence is capable of progression. That is why in the prayers of Bahá’u’lláh forgiveness and remission of sins are asked for those who have died. Moreover, as people in this world are in need of God, they will also need Him in the other world. The creatures are always in need, and God is absolutely independent, whether in this world or in the world to come.”

I would note that Catholics have the concept of Purgatory so the soul can progress in the afterlife. Is that so?

 

[Reuben_J]

If Jesus is the Messiah then what do we need with Baha’u’llah? That is why I dwell on this further.

We don’t.

Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved. Acts 4:11

 

[Servant19]

So is salvation the only requirement for human beings?

If we are given eternal life from the sacrifice of the Lamb of God, what next? I have been saved, can I sit down and enjoy and revel in that knowledge?

 

[Reuben_J]

So is salvation the only requirement for human beings?

If we are given eternal life from the sacrifice of the Lamb of God, what next? I have been saved, can I sit down and enjoy and revel in that knowledge?

Very clever but redundant, Servant, really.

The saints in heaven are blissfully enjoying and reveling in the presence of the Lamb of God; and while for the faithful on earth they are looking forwards in the hope of the thing to come.

Amen.

 

[daler]

It is acceptable. My only point is that there is just a lot more to Jesus than being a prophet.

If Jesus is the Messiah then what do we need with Baha’u’llah? That is why I dwell on this further.

Steve,
. Thank you for focussing the question here. I’ll do my best to answer it. Some of it will probably be similar to what you have read here before, but I will try my best to be original and ask that you follow as best you can what the Baha’i understanding is, although it differs from your own.

. The Prophets of God give to humanity what we have the capacity to receive. They are both Divine Educators and Divine Physicians, sent for the progress and healing of mankind.
. Our belief is that of Progressive Revelation, that in due portion we are given spiritual understanding, or the Knowledge of God increasingly as our capacity increases over centuries and thousands of years.

. “All men have been created to carry forward an ever-advancing civilization. The Almighty beareth Me witness: To act like the beasts of the field is unworthy of man. Those virtues that befit his dignity are forbearance, mercy, compassion and loving-kindness towards all the peoples and kindreds of the earth.”

. It is clear that humanity, individually and collectively, continues to act “like the beasts of the field”. Hence, we are not “there” yet, as in “Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.”

. So the process of this divine education did not stop with Abraham, or with Moses, but greater teaching was given by Moses than Abraham. This is not because Abraham did not possess more knowledge, or that Moses possessed more, it is because, as Instruments of Divine Revelation, mankind had digested after time the teachings of Abraham and at the time of Moses had gained greater capacity.
. This process continued with the coming of Jesus, the Messiah (Messenger), building upon the foundation laid by Abraham and the framework built by Moses. Let us say that Jesus, the Divine Carpenter, added the roof to shelter humanity from spiritual storms.

. While Jews do not recognize Jesus as the continuation of the Divine Revelation of God, Christians do so, without negating Abraham and Moses and the other lesser prophets. The Baha’i view, although it be rejected by Christians and Jews, is that Muhammad was yet another Apostle, foretold as the Book of Genesis said, “I will make of thee a great nation”, referring to the children of Abraham through the line of Hagar and Ishmael:
. "Then the angel of the Lord told her, “Go back to your mistress and submit to her.” The angel added, “I will increase your descendants so much that they will be too numerous to count.”
. Jesus descended (or Mary did) through Sarai through Isaac. Muhammad descended through Hagar through Ishmael. Baha’u’llah descended through both Sarai and Katurah. All descended through Abraham, and all figure into later Revelations prophesied in the Holy Books.

. But getting to your point, “Why” do we need Baha’u’llah? I would say that it follows the same pattern of Progressive Revelation towards an ever-advancing civilization. We are obviously not civilized yet.

. It also fulfills prophecy. Many, many prophecies. “There shall be One Fold and One Shepherd”. This has not occurred under Christ’s first coming. It was prophesied to be fulfilled in the 2nd Advent upon His return. Therefore, it must be so, for Scripture has foretold it.

. From the Baha’i perspective, there will always be a need for successive Manifestations of God:

. “God witnesseth that there is no God but Him, the Gracious, the Best-Beloved. All grace and bounty are His. To whomsoever He will He giveth whatsoever is His wish. He, verily, is the All-Powerful, the Almighty, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. We, verily, believe in Him Who, in the person of the Báb, hath been sent down by the Will of the one true God, the King of Kings, the All-Praised. We, moreover, swear fealty to the One Who, in the time of Mustagháth, is destined to be made manifest, as well as to those Who shall come after Him till the end that hath no end. We recognize in the manifestation of each one of them, whether outwardly or inwardly, the manifestation of none but God Himself, if ye be of those that comprehend. Every one of them is a Mirror of God, reflecting naught else but His Self, His Beauty, His Might and Glory, if ye will understand. All else besides them are to be regarded as mirrors capable of reflecting the glory of these Manifestations Who are themselves the Primary Mirrors of the Divine Being, if ye be not devoid of understanding. No one hath ever escaped them, neither are they to be hindered from achieving their purpose. These Mirrors will everlastingly succeed each other, and will continue to reflect the light of the Ancient of Days. They that reflect their glory will, in like manner, continue to exist for evermore, for the Grace of God can never cease from flowing. This is a truth that none can disprove.”

page 73, 74 Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah

 

[daler]

I have no expertise in Baha’i teachings.

I do know that both of you are saying contradictory things, so if I do conclude that what you are saying is consonant with Baha’i teachings, then I must infer that what arthra is saying is not.

Either when we die we progress eternally (your position), or when we die and reach the presence of God, we have achieved our fullest and highest end (arthra’s position, and that of Catholicism.)

PR If you would care to, here is a link which pertains to the nature of the soul. It will dispel the apparent contradictions you point out:

bahaullah.com/bahaullah-writings-soul.html

 

[PRmerger]

PR If you would care to, here is a link which pertains to the nature of the soul. It will dispel the apparent contradictions you point out:

bahaullah.com/bahaullah-writings-soul.html

What is it that you believe, daler?

Does the soul progress eternally? Or when one is in the presence of God is that the highest and fullness of our being and we do not progress anymore?

 

[daler]

And Jesus being the Messiah, the anointed one, the Son of God, should we not listen and obey everything that he said and reject any and everything that conflicts with what he said and taught?

Pork

Porknpie, Good to have you back…

. What you say is true. We Baha’is who are of Christian background couldn’t agree with you more.

. What we point to as being relevant is of course all that is mentioned concerning the 2nd Advent of Christ. That is relevant. Indeed, for those living in the time of the 2nd Advent, nothing could be more relevant.

. Baha’is are very sincere and emphatic about saying that the prophecies foretold in all the Holy Books, not only in the Old and New Testament, but other Holy Books as well, have been fulfilled in the coming of Baha’u’llah, The Glory of God.

. It is true that there are many interpretations to a few verses of Scripture which cause some to say: “This is incompatible with that.” We fully recognize that certain traditions, for example, appear to differ between say, the Quran and what is written in both the Old and New Testament. They are very few in number, but significant, and we do not deny that.

. We do, however, believe that these differences are resolved in light of the teachings of Baha’u’llah. For us there in no contradiction.

. The greatest mistake of the Jews was the denial of the coming of their Promised Messiah. They view the coming of Jesus as contradictory to certain of their prophecies. Yet for Christians, there is no contradiction.

. The greatest mistake for all the Religions is to deny the Promised One all their Holy Books foretold. For Baha’is, there is no contradiction. With sober sincerity we all testify that Baha’u’llah is the Promised One foretold in all the Heavenly Books.

. The following Wikipedia link gives a good overview of this:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahá’u’lláh

 

[PRmerger]

No, there is no contradiction. The highest station is being in the presence of God, and our soul may progress eternally while in the presence of God. We do not merge with God, but we can become ever closer.

Ah. So the highest station is being in the presence of God but there is a higher station still than that?

Is that what you are saying?

I would note that Catholics have the concept of Purgatory so the soul can progress in the afterlife. Is that so?

Indeed.

But just not in heaven. Once the beatific vision is achieved, then we have achieved the fullness of salvation. There is no such thing as progression of the soul in the afterlife.

That is another Baha’i teaching that is contradictory to Christianity.

 

[daler]

What is it that you believe, daler?

Does the soul progress eternally? Or when one is in the presence of God is that the highest and fullness of our being and we do not progress anymore?

PR Thank you for your question. I have been reading your posts and understand that there is a complex nature to this important subject.

First, let me say that for Baha’is, what is meant by the term “Heaven” is attainment unto the good-pleasure of God. Heaven is not a geographic location, but a spiritual condition.

When we turn towards God, which happens only when we turn towards His Manifestation, we receive the bounty of His Light and Merciful bestowals. This is a continual process, in my understanding. We do not simply “arrive” at some point in time. It is not like that.

We progress according to degrees in accordance with our spiritual development, in stages, as it were, eternally progressing towards God in the “Heaven of His nearness.”

From our earthly vantage point, we are used to being able to arrive at a destination and then say: “I have arrived” I would suspect that it is more of a journey upon which we must always continue towards an eternal destination.

As God is infinite and Unknowable in His Essence, we continue towards this Infinity in the Knowledge of God. Our life is eternal, and as we shall always be finite, our knowledge of God shall never be complete. We will forever progress so long as we turn towards Him, both in this world and the world to come.

Also understand that human words will ever fall short of describing that which is beyond us in this mortal world. Conversation at some point will not suffice to answer that which cannot be known to us in this world. The human mind cannot fathom beyond its limitations imposed by God.

 

[PRmerger]

When we turn towards God, which happens only when we turn towards His Manifestation, we receive the bounty of His Light and Merciful bestowals. This is a continual process, in my understanding. We do not simply “arrive” at some point in time. It is not like that.

This is very Catholic.

We progress according to degrees in accordance with our spiritual development, in stages, as it were, eternally progressing towards God in the “Heaven of His nearness.”

Is the above something that happens on earth only? Or even in heaven?

If it is the latter, then what’s the difference between our existence on earth before death, and after we die?

As God is infinite and Unknowable in His Essence, we continue towards this Infinity in the Knowledge of God. Our life is eternal, and as we shall always be finite, our knowledge of God shall never be complete. We will forever progress so long as we turn towards Him, both in this world and the world to come.

So you, like Jcc, believe that being in the presence of God is the highest station, but that there is a higher station still?

 

[daler]

This is very Catholic.

Is the above something that happens on earth only? Or even in heaven?

If it is the latter, then what’s the difference between our existence on earth before death, and after we die?

So you, like Jcc, believe that being in the presence of God is the highest station, but that there is a higher station still?

PR I would like to comment on your frequent comment: “This is very Catholic”

. There is no question that the Catholic Faith has been given many profound insights over the course of the past 2000 years. That you should find much agreement with Baha’i teachings is not surprising.
. A Jew studying Christianity would no doubt often be able to say: “This is very Jewish” This is as it should be. For many profound insights were given to the Jews over the course of several thousand years.
. This speaks to

“The Oneness of Religion”, which Baha’is believe in, as well as
“The Oneness of God” and
“The Oneness of Mankind.”

. When we speak of “attaining the Presence of God”, as God is beyond human capacity to know, and remains in His Essence, Unknowable to us, we are in reality speaking of attaining unto the Presence of His Manifestation.
. At the time of Moses, to be in His presence was to be in the Presence of God, Baha’is believe, for He is regarded as a “Manifestation” of God.
. Similarly, to be in the presence of Christ was to be “in the Presence” of God, as He was the Manifestation of God among men.
. Also, in turning to His “Manifestations”, we are turning towards God.
. In turning away from His Manifestations, we are turning away from God.

. As God is Infinite, and we are finite and of limited capacity, both in this world and the world to come, the most we can hope to do is to keep turning towards Him, submitting ourselves (which tends to stray) to His will in obedience to His command.

. Clearly, in this world, we all fall short of the Glory of God.

Abdul Baha, the son of Baha’u’llah, spoke on the subject of endless perfections for the human soul. (This one is not too long)

reference.bahai.org/en/t/c/BWF/bwf-33.html

 

[SteveVH]

We progress according to degrees in accordance with our spiritual development, in stages, as it were, eternally progressing towards God in the “Heaven of His nearness.”

From our earthly vantage point, we are used to being able to arrive at a destination and then say: “I have arrived” I would suspect that it is more of a journey upon which we must always continue towards an eternal destination.

How does one always continue toward an eternal destination? Inherent in the act of progressing is the fact that one is moving toward something, a destination, for the very purpose of reaching that destination. If one is not moving ever closer then one is not progressing. To progress eternally is a contradiction in terms; it would mean that we will never reach our final destiny which in turn means that we are progressing toward nothing.

I find it a little odd that the thought of realizing one’s final destiny in sharing in the very life of God seems somehow less than satisfactory.

 

[PRmerger]

PR I would like to comment on your frequent comment: “This is very Catholic”

. There is no question that the Catholic Faith has been given many profound insights over the course of the past 2000 years. That you should find much agreement with Baha’i teachings is not surprising.
. A Jew studying Christianity would no doubt often be able to say: “This is very Jewish” This is as it should be. For many profound insights were given to the Jews over the course of several thousand years.

. This speaks to

“The Oneness of Religion”, which Baha’is believe in, as well as
“The Oneness of God” and
“The Oneness of Mankind.”

No. All religions are not One. But there is indeed only ONE religion. At least, ONE that is revelation of the fullness of Truth.

. When we speak of “attaining the Presence of God”, as God is beyond human capacity to know, and remains in His Essence, Unknowable to us, we are in reality speaking of attaining unto the Presence of His Manifestation.
. At the time of Moses, to be in His presence was to be in the Presence of God, Baha’is believe, for He is regarded as a “Manifestation” of God.

And in Catholicism we are able to have the most profound, sublime, magnificent thing ever: the One Flesh Union with God.

 

[PRmerger]

. At the time of Moses, to be in His presence was to be in the Presence of God, Baha’is believe, for He is regarded as a “Manifestation” of God.
. Similarly, to be in the presence of Christ was to be “in the Presence” of God, as He was the Manifestation of God among men.
. Also, in turning to His “Manifestations”, we are turning towards God.
. In turning away from His Manifestations, we are turning away from God.

Being able to be in the Presence of God is nothing to sniff at, to be sure.

But, again, there is no way for Baha’is to experience the One Flesh Union with God.

It is like you and your Beloved can enjoy dating, being together, enjoying each other’s presence, but you can never achieve the fullness of this union, the marital embrace in which you enjoy the ONE FLESH UNION.

You and God get to look at each other, and that’s fine.

But my beloved and I get to enjoy the most intimate union possible: becoming One Flesh with each other.

 

[daler]

How does one always continue toward an eternal destination? Inherent in the act of progressing is the fact that one is moving toward something, a destination, for the very purpose of reaching that destination. If one is not moving ever closer then one is not progressing. To progress eternally is a contradiction in terms; it would mean that we will never reach our final destiny which in turn means that we are progressing toward nothing.

I find it a little odd that the thought of realizing one’s final destiny in sharing in the very life of God seems somehow less than satisfactory.

Steve, I can appreciate the difficulty this may present, but consider for example, space exploration. No matter how much space is explored, there will always be more. If the “destination” or goal of space exploration is to “know it all”, that will never happen. Nevertheless, we can continue to explore always in the hope of knowing more than we presently do.

There are three aspects of logic:

That which is logical, and can be made sense of in logical terms.
That which is illogical, and clearly does not make sense logically.
And that which is alogical, or outside the realm of logic.

. What we term heaven, or the “next world”, which surely is an insufficient term, as it has no frame of reference other than that of which we know, is as different to us as is this world to the fetus in the womb. No matter how much we may try and communicate with the fetus yet within the womb of its mother, it has no capacity to understand. It is still developing that which it needs, not for life in the womb, but for life after the womb. One could say that the world you and I live in is the “afterlife” of our stage as a fetus.

. Looking at it that way, what is the destination of the growth of the fetus? It is preparation for that which to it would seem infinite, for it is bound and confined to the interior of the womb. I suspect that heaven is exponentially greater than what we experience here when compared to what we experience in proportion to fetal existence. In other words, hang onto your hat, cowboys. Ya’ll are in for one helluva ride!! Yahoo!!

. Ok… sorry if thats a little weird. ;-(

But there are “rules to the rodeo” to be considered.

#1 Don’t p… off the horse you’re riding.
#2 Try and stay on the horse…
#3 Stay away from the fences…
#4 Be glad you’re on a horse and not a bull!!
#5 Make sure you’re on the good side of the clown…

. Can you add a few more of your own here?

 

[SteveVH]

Steve,
. Thank you for focussing the question here.

You are welcome. Let’s see if we can stay focused.

But getting to your point, “Why” do we need Baha’u’llah? I would say that it follows the same pattern of Progressive Revelation towards an ever-advancing civilization. We are obviously not civilized yet.

Jesus did not come to help us progress toward an ever-advancing civilization until we finally become civilized. He came to save us from spiritual death that we might live with him for eternity.

We are focusing on the fact that the Baha’i apparently agree that Jesus is the Messiah. That means Jesus is the one for which the world has been waiting since Adam and Eve. The Messiah is the one who saves us from sin and death. If we have been saved from sin and death, through the passion, death and resurrection of Jesus, for what possible reason do we need anyone or anything else? He gives us the gift of eternal life. Could anyone offer us more?

The Baha’i faith, implicitly, if not explicitly, considers Jesus to be insufficient in bringing to fulfillment God’s eternal plan. That is where you loose the Christian. There is no one above or beyond Jesus Christ and therefore we have no need for anyone but him.

 

[SteveVH]

Steve, I can appreciate the difficulty this may present, but consider for example, space exploration. No matter how much space is explored, there will always be more. If the “destination” or goal of space exploration is to “know it all”, that will never happen. Nevertheless, we can continue to explore always in the hope of knowing more than we presently do.

There are three aspects of logic:

That which is logical, and can be made sense of in logical terms.
That which is illogical, and clearly does not make sense logically.
And that which is alogical, or outside the realm of logic.

. What we term heaven, or the “next world”, which surely is an insufficient term, as it has no frame of reference other than that of which we know, is as different to us as is this world to the fetus in the womb. No matter how much we may try and communicate with the fetus yet within the womb of its mother, it has no capacity to understand. It is still developing that which it needs, not for life in the womb, but for life after the womb. One could say that the world you and I live in is the “afterlife” of our stage as a fetus.

. Looking at it that way, what is the destination of the growth of the fetus? It is preparation for that which to it would seem infinite, for it is bound and confined to the interior of the womb. I suspect that heaven is exponentially greater than what we experience here when compared to what we experience in proportion to fetal existence. In other words, hang onto your hat, cowboys. Ya’ll are in for one helluva ride!! Yahoo!!

. Ok… sorry if thats a little weird. ;-(

But there are “rules to the rodeo” to be considered.

#1 Don’t p… off the horse you’re riding.
#2 Try and stay on the horse…
#3 Stay away from the fences…
#4 Be glad you’re on a horse and not a bull!!
#5 Make sure you’re on the good side of the clown…

. Can you add a few more of your own here?

I really have no idea of what you believe heaven to be. Continually seeking, but never finding? Moving toward something which you will never reach?

As is evident from the very name of God; Father, Son and Holy Spirit, we believe that God is, in his essence, a family.

God invites us to become his adopted sons and daughters; co-heirs with Christ to all that the Father has. This does not mean that we become God. It means that he invites us to share in his life, as a family. This is our destiny.

What that life will entail is beyond anyone’s ability to know or even conceive. “No eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart conceived what God has planned for those who love him”. So if you imagine that the Christian idea of heaven is that we simply reach a certain point and hit a wall, so to speak, you are mistaken. We will be in a constant state of wonder and awe as we gaze upon the face of God and become one with Him and with each other. We will finally, truly, be home and every human longing will be fulfilled. We will lack nothing.

 

[PRmerger]

I really have no idea of what you believe heaven to be. Continually seeking, but never finding? Moving toward something which you will never reach?

Yes. It sounds like an interminable pregnancy. Always pregnant but never having the joy of birth.

 

[daler]

Being able to be in the Presence of God is nothing to sniff at, to be sure.

But, again, there is no way for Baha’is to experience the One Flesh Union with God.

It is like you and your Beloved can enjoy dating, being together, enjoying each other’s presence, but you can never achieve the fullness of this union, the marital embrace in which you enjoy the ONE FLESH UNION.

You and God get to look at each other, and that’s fine.

But my beloved and I get to enjoy the most intimate union possible: becoming One Flesh with each other.

PR I have heard you speak in this way before and have hesitated to share my own personal experience. I will do so now, and know that there are many other Baha’is who can confirm the same experience, although they will tell you, as I do, that words cannot contain or express the experience in any way shape or form.

. This will be a personal story. Mine.

. As mentioned before, having grown up as a Methodist in the Midwest, my understanding of God and religion was culturally affected by both my being white, and living on a Sioux Reservation. For me, prayer was what I was taught in church by my folks, my grandmother, and our minister and teachers. My Lakota friends had their own form of prayer, according to their culture, and I believe that their religion was given to them by God through the Prophets He sent to them long before my ancestors showed up, or those of similar geographic origin.

. The closeness to God that I experienced in church was at its peak what Christians commonly call being “born again”. It is a spiritual awakening and a profound experience.

. I can tell you also that the most sacred ritual among the Sioux is the Sweat Lodge ceremony. There are a lot of a characters now who may peddle some version of that among rich white folks nowadays and if they are lucky, they might get a whiff of what the real thing is all about, but I suspect it cannot be duplicated for a fee, if you catch my drift.

. Much of Native American spirituality was destroyed in the past several hundred years. The East Coast got hit first, and the spiritual disease the Europeans carried with them had a potent effect upon the traditions of Indigenous peoples as it carried itself Westward Ho.
. The “frontier”, where I lived, was the last place to be “conquered” and the traditions were maintained the longest out along the Western Front until all was quiet, somewhere around 1890 in a Creek called Wounded Knee. So what remains of the original in what we have learned to call America is best preserved along these western regions, where some of it still survived, despite all attempts of Manifest Destiny to destroy every living trace.

. My point here is twofold. One: What the Native American people had been given by God is every bit as valid as what you refer to, and it is out of prejudice or ignorance that you may think otherwise. I do not wish to confront you on this, for it is a bias which you yourself shall have to overcome.
. I can say this with certainty, for having crossed the parameters of the prairie both physically and spiritually I can say (meaning no arrogance) that I have been to the Promised Land of both White and Indian, and they are the same Promised Land of the Great Spirit God. He did not leave out the people who happened not to be “Catholic”…

. Nor does He leave out those who happen not to be Baha’i. What Baha’u’llah brings is that which was promised to both East and West, to Christian and Indian, Jew and Muslim, Buddhist and Hindu. It is the same Promise, and He kept it. He’s pretty good about keeping promises when you get right down to it. Never missed a beat so far…

. On point number Two: You and I can sit here and hit letters on keyboards till our fingers fall off and it won’t change anything. All of us can express this or that opinion, but if we can’t see the forest for the trees, whats it all for?
. There are a lot of trees in the forest, and a lot of forests on the planet. The same green energy is surging through the leaves of the Cottonwood, the Juniper, the Cyprus, and the Bohdi Trees.

. One Planet. One People Please!