Baha'i Returns Thread: Ask Any of Many Baha'i

[PRmerger]

PR I have heard you speak in this way before and have hesitated to share my own personal experience. I will do so now, and know that there are many other Baha’is who can confirm the same experience, although they will tell you, as I do, that words cannot contain or express the experience in any way shape or form.

. This will be a personal story. Mine.

I thank you for sharing your personal story.

. As mentioned before, having grown up as a Methodist in the Midwest, my understanding of God and religion was culturally affected by both my being white, and living on a Sioux Reservation. For me, prayer was what I was taught in church by my folks, my grandmother, and our minister and teachers. My Lakota friends had their own form of prayer, according to their culture, and I believe that their religion was given to them by God through the Prophets He sent to them long before my ancestors showed up, or those of similar geographic origin.

. The closeness to God that I experienced in church was at its peak what Christians commonly call being “born again”. It is a spiritual awakening and a profound experience.

That there is a profound spiritual experience to be found among other religions, I have no doubt.

. I can tell you also that the most sacred ritual among the Sioux is the Sweat Lodge ceremony. There are a lot of a characters now who may peddle some version of that among rich white folks nowadays and if they are lucky, they might get a whiff of what the real thing is all about, but I suspect it cannot be duplicated for a fee, if you catch my drift

Let’s say that there is a person who profoundly believes that Santa Claus appears to him in a ceremony?

Do you think that we must give credence to the veracity of this, because he feels so emotionally moved when it occurred?

Now, please do not read any disrespect in my allusion to Santa Claus. It is only because I must appeal to a figure we both know does not exist, in order to make my point.

And the point, again, is this: religious fervor and emotional experiences do not testify to the truth of an experience.

My point here is twofold. One: What the Native American people had been given by God is every bit as valid as what you refer to, and it is out of prejudice or ignorance that you may think otherwise. I do not wish to confront you on this, for it is a bias which you yourself shall have to overcome.

Again, to the degree that what the Native American people believe that is consonant with the Truth of God’s revelation, then I give them a hearty amen!

One Planet. One People Please!

Amen! One Planet. One People. ***United in Truth! ***

 

[daler]

What that life will entail is beyond anyone’s ability to know or even conceive. “No eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart conceived what God has planned for those who love him”. So if you imagine that the Christian idea of heaven is that we simply reach a certain point and hit a wall, so to speak, you are mistaken. We will be in a constant state of wonder and awe as we gaze upon the face of God and become one with Him and with each other. We will finally, truly, be home and every human longing will be fulfilled. We will lack nothing.

Steve, We are not talking about two different things. The “Christian Heaven” and the Baha’i Heaven are no more different than the Heaven of Abraham and Moses was to Christ. It is the same destination, the same goal, the same Reality. To try and analyze it from where we are at is like riding tricycles at the Indy 500. It seems to miss the point of the what the races are all about. Except that there is no competition in Heaven.

. I suspect very much that what we shall be occupied with will be praying for others, that they shall all be a head of us. “The first shall be last, and the last shall be first.” Only by leaving our “self” behind can we ever hope to approach God.

. As you say: “We will be in a constant state of wonder and awe as we gaze upon the face of God…” So will that wonder cease? When we attain to the state of Wonderment, will it be over?

. There is an incredible mystical work by Baha’u’llah called the Seven Valleys and the Four Valleys. One of these Valleys in our Journey to God is the Valley of Wonderment.

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/SVFV/svfv-6.html

PS This was addressed to a Sufi so its context reflects their terms and thoughts… When Baha’u’llah addressed people of different cultures and religions, He did so from their perspective so that they could understand Him.

 

[daler]

Jesus did not come to help us progress toward an ever-advancing civilization until we finally become civilized. He came to save us from spiritual death that we might live with him for eternity.

We are focusing on the fact that the Baha’i apparently agree that Jesus is the Messiah. That means Jesus is the one for which the world has been waiting since Adam and Eve. The Messiah is the one who saves us from sin and death. If we have been saved from sin and death, through the passion, death and resurrection of Jesus, for what possible reason do we need anyone or anything else? He gives us the gift of eternal life. Could anyone offer us more?

The Baha’i faith, implicitly, if not explicitly, considers Jesus to be insufficient in bringing to fulfillment God’s eternal plan. That is where you loose the Christian. There is no one above or beyond Jesus Christ and therefore we have no need for anyone but him.

Steve, When Jesus prayed, “Thy Kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven” <<<— That! is what is meant by an “ever advancing civilization”

When you say that Baha’is believe: “Jesus to be insufficient” is totally, completely missing the point of His 2nd Coming. i.e., to establish the Kingdom of God on Earth, as it is in Heaven.

Can you honestly say that after 2000 years His Kingdom has been established? Anywhere???

And forgive me if I don’t know how to phrase this in any other way, but the One Who is the Christ Spirit which Anointed Jesus and made Him the Christ is the Spirit which Baha’is are talking about. It is not a “different” Spirit, or some other Reality. It is that same Heavenly Reality which was spoken of in the Bible:

“Christ shall return in the Glory of God”

To ask why does this have to happen is to challenge the Bible verse it self: “Why does He have to return in the Glory of God?” Why? Why???

And of course by now you know that when Baha’is refer to the Glory of God as Baha’u’llah, or Baha’u’llah as the Glory of God, we are merely speaking English and Arabic, or Arabic and English.

That the Jews who “became” Christian did so because of their recognition of Jesus as having fulfilled the prophesies foretold in their own Holy Books, is the very same “reason” that Jews, Christians, Muslims, Native Americans and others have become Baha’is in this day. It is because we (all of the above - and then some) “recognize” the fulfillment of prophecies from all these wide variety of religious traditions.
. We are not making this stuff up!! But it remains true that after 2000 years there are millions of Jews who have not investigated the claim of Jesus. Most of those who sincerely searched out the truth of the matter, I suspect, became Christian somewhere along “the Way, the Truth, and the Life”… and found no contradiction, but rather fulfillment.
. At least 10% of Iranian Jews became Baha’i, thus recognizing at the same time Christ as the Messiah. The most profound book on prophecy that I ever read was by a descendent of Iranian Jews: Hushidar Motlagh.
. His book entitled, “I Shall Come Again”, is the result of a 25 year effort, and is so replete with sufficient proofs as to enable anyone of either Jewish or Christian background absolutely stunned!
. Not only does it prove Baha’u’llah to be the Promised One expected by Christians and Jews, but Christ as well to the Jews if they look no further.
. What else can I say? Really???

 

[Jcc1960]

Yes. It sounds like an interminable pregnancy. Always pregnant but never having the joy of birth.

To follow your analogy, a mother carries the child for 9 months then has the joy of birth. Then what, nothing more to do, just rest? No, a birth is a new beginning, there is plenty more to do, new joys, new opportunities for growth for the parents, and obviously for the child.

I certainly appreciate and understand your logic in saying that you do not accept being in the presence of God as a final destiny, but that we can continue to grow (where is the finality in that). But to me, lack of growth or the ability to grow is not consistent with life.

 

[PRmerger]

To follow your analogy, a mother carries the child for 9 months then has the joy of birth. Then what, nothing more to do, just rest? No, a birth is a new beginning, there is plenty more to do, new joys, new opportunities for growth for the parents, and obviously for the child.

And to follow your analogy: what happens when this adult dies?

Is he reincarnated to continue to grow, interminably?

But to me, lack of growth or the ability to grow is not consistent with life.

But it is inconsistent with eternal life.

 

[arthra]

And to follow your analogy: what happens when this adult dies?

Is he reincarnated to continue to grow, interminably?

But it is inconsistent with eternal life.

Baha’is don’t accept reincarnation… We don’t believe the soul “incarnates” in the body in the first place… The soul is associated with the body.like a light is seen in a mirror. I realize many Christians believe in incarnation and some maybe even in re-incarnation and physical resurrection and the bodies ascending out of graves and so on… but these are not our beliefs.

 

[PRmerger]

Baha’is don’t accept reincarnation… We don’t believe the soul “incarnates” in the body in the first place… The soul is associated with the body.like a light is seen in a mirror. I realize many Christians believe in incarnation and some maybe even in re-incarnation and physical resurrection and the bodies ascending out of graves and so on… but these are not our beliefs.

Are you of the position that our soul evolves eternally…that being in the Presence of God is NOT the highest station?

 

[arthra]

Earlier some seemed perplexed that the soul can continue to progress… Let me suggest that in the next world our language and thought processes developed here on his physical plane may not be so relevant.

Imagine trying to explain to a foetus what life will be like after birth… A foetus who derives all it’s nutrients through the umbilical cord will not be so excited to learn that it will have to do without the cord in the next world. Nor will they understand how time is reckoned in this life or why it is necessary and so on.

Here are a few selections from the Baha’i Writings that may help illustrate how it is for us in the next world…

The reason of the mission of the Prophets is to educate men; so that this piece of coal may become a diamond, and this fruitless tree may be engrafted, and yield the sweetest, most delicious fruits. When man reaches the noblest state in the world of humanity, then he can make further progress in the conditions of perfection, but not in state; for such states are limited, but the divine perfections are endless.

Both before and after putting off this material form, there is progress in perfection, but not in state. So beings are consummated in perfect man. There is no other being higher than a perfect man. But man when he has reached this state can still make progress in perfections but not in state, because there is no state higher than that of a perfect man to which he can transfer himself. He only progresses in the state of humanity, for the human perfections are infinite. Thus, however learned a man may be, we can imagine one more learned.

Hence, as the perfections of humanity are endless, man can also make progress in perfections after leaving this world.

*~ Abdu’l-Baha,
*

*And now concerning thy question regarding the soul of man and its survival after death. **Know thou of a truth that the soul, after its separation from the body, will continue to progress until it attaineth the presence of God, in a state and condition which neither the revolution of ages and centuries, nor the changes and chances of this world, can alter. ***

*It will endure as long as the Kingdom of God, His sovereignty, His dominion and power will endure. It will manifest the signs of God and His attributes, and will reveal His loving kindness and bounty. **The movement of My Pen is stilled when it attempteth to befittingly describe the loftiness and glory of so exalted a station. ***

*The honor with which the Hand of Mercy will invest the soul is such as **no tongue can adequately reveal, nor any other earthly agency describe. *Blessed is the soul which, at the hour of its separation from the body, is sanctified from the vain imaginings of the peoples of the world. Such a soul liveth and moveth in accordance with the Will of its Creator, and entereth the all-highest Paradise.

~ Baha’u’llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 155

 

[PRmerger]

Earlier some seemed perplexed that the soul can continue to progress…

arthra, could you please answer this question: do you believe that being in the Presence of God is the highest station? It appears that you do, as you stated this here (bold mine):

For Baha’is anyway… I would suggest that the highest station we would envision is being in the presence of God… not being in “… union with the Godhead”.

And then are you of the position that there is a station higher than this “highest station”, since you are positing that the soul progresses?

Yes, or no?

 

[PRmerger]

I was asked by Servant19 to point out what words from Baha’i writings are not Truth.

I answered, citing several examples.

Here are some more that are not Truth:

Here are a few selections from the Baha’i Writings that may help illustrate how it is for us in the next world…

When man reaches the noblest state in the world of humanity, then he can make further progress in the conditions of perfection, but not in state; for such states are limited, but the divine perfections are endless.

Both before and after putting off this material form, there is progress in perfection, but not in state. So beings are consummated in perfect man. There is no other being higher than a perfect man. But man when he has reached this state can still make progress in perfections but not in state, because there is no state higher than that of a perfect man to which he can transfer himself. He only progresses in the state of humanity, for the human perfections are infinite. Thus, however learned a man may be, we can imagine one more learned.

Hence, as the perfections of humanity are endless, man can also make progress in perfections after leaving this world.

*~ Abdu’l-Baha,
*

*And now concerning thy question regarding the soul of man and its survival after death. **Know thou of a truth that the soul, after its separation from the body, will continue to progress until it attaineth the presence of God, in a state and condition which neither the revolution of ages and centuries, nor the changes and chances of this world, can alter. ***

*It will endure as long as the Kingdom of God, His sovereignty, His dominion and power will endure. It will manifest the signs of God and His attributes, and will reveal His loving kindness and bounty. **The movement of My Pen is stilled when it attempteth to befittingly describe the loftiness and glory of so exalted a station. ***

*The honor with which the Hand of Mercy will invest the soul is such as **no tongue can adequately reveal, nor any other earthly agency describe. *Blessed is the soul which, at the hour of its separation from the body, is sanctified from the vain imaginings of the peoples of the world. Such a soul liveth and moveth in accordance with the Will of its Creator, and entereth the all-highest Paradise.

~ Baha’u’llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 155

 

[Little_Star_1]

Well I can certainly assert that it’s not by WORDS alone, which is how all are judging the Bahai Faith on this thread…

It’s only through ACTIONING the Word of God that its true meaning is ascertained. The Word of God is living. It assumes a life of its own and its true meaning is LEARNT through ACTION, NOT, I repeat NOT provided like a spoon full of sugar by a man who “assumes” learning while sitting in his church office, preparing his next sermon.

This is why Little Star is in actuality a very BIG STAR. She actually comes across as someone who wants to APPLY the Word of God into action and has learnt the true meaning of this Word through living experience, not by reading book after book, or being spoon fed by priest after priest.

Application of the Word through deeds, allows you to BECOME the Word.

Thank you so much Servant 19.
God did not intend for us to be endlessly bickering over this and that area of theology. He seeks our knowing Him. Sacraments, prayers, messengers, Son of God, sons of God, all lead to the knowing of Him, which is an individual action of allowing Him to live in your heart and, through your heart, to move your nature closer to His own.

Sometimes the debates on here, and other threads, get to sounding like a bunch of intellectual drivel. The attempt of the writer to demonstrate the immensity of their handle on the idea of God, the words and theories, and the rightness and wrongness of these. God is not an idea. No theory, no one religion, can sum up God; and, He does not intend for it to be any other way. What He does desire is that we look beyond what we perceive to be boundaries, which are really the meaning of the words we use to describe Him, and to reach out to each other and to Him. We were made to love Him and each other through it all.

I received this in my email box yesterday. It really expresses what I think we are to achieve and also what I think the OT and the NT are trying to get across, yet the message is missed by so many some how.

“Seek not the letter or the word but meditate deeply and let Me inspire you 
from within, let Me express the Truth in you. That which is of the Spirit comes 
from within, not from without. Keep your consciousness raised into the realm 
of the Spirit where all can be understood and lived. Listen, listen in that raised
 state of consciousness when every fiber of your being is alert and you cannot fail to hear My still small voice - but always remember when you hear to follow 
it through and ACT upon it. Never let My word fall on deaf ears.”

Now, I know someone will be on here saying I miss this or miss that. Well, sorry, to have offended. However, my life, since almost my first memory, has been a communion with God. Sometimes weakly, sometimes strongly, but, always a communion. I don’t seek to be a “good Christian”. I seek to be a good daughter to the one and only Creator of the Universe, our Father.

Love back at ya Servant 19!

 

[PRmerger]

Thank you so much Servant 19.
God did not intend for us to be endlessly bickering over this and that area of theology. He seeks our knowing Him. Sacraments, prayers, messengers, Son of God, sons of God, all lead to the knowing of Him, which is an individual action of allowing Him to live in your heart and, through your heart, to move your nature closer to His own.

Sometimes the debates on here, and other threads, get to sounding like a bunch of intellectual drivel. The attempt of the writer to demonstrate the immensity of their handle on the idea of God, the words and theories, and the rightness and wrongness of these. God is not an idea. No theory, no one religion, can sum up God; and, He does not intend for it to be any other way. What He does desire is that we look beyond what we perceive to be boundaries, which are really the meaning of the words we use to describe Him, and to reach out to each other and to Him. We were made to love Him and each other through it all.

I received this in my email box yesterday. It really expresses what I think we are to achieve and also what I think the OT and the NT are trying to get across, yet the message is missed by so many some how.

“Seek not the letter or the word but meditate deeply and let Me inspire you 
from within, let Me express the Truth in you. That which is of the Spirit comes 
from within, not from without. Keep your consciousness raised into the realm 
of the Spirit where all can be understood and lived. Listen, listen in that raised
 state of consciousness when every fiber of your being is alert and you cannot fail to hear My still small voice - but always remember when you hear to follow 
it through and ACT upon it. Never let My word fall on deaf ears.”

Now I know someone will be on here jumping up and down on my head saying I miss this or miss that. Well, too bad for ya. My life, since my first memory, has been a communion with God. Sometimes weakly, sometimes strongly. I don’t seek to be a “good Christian”. I seek to be a good daughter to the one and only Creator of the Universe, our Father.

Love back at ya Servant 19!

It sounds to me, Little Star, that you reserve for yourself the right to do everything to which you object in others.

You allow yourself to bicker with others as much as you hate to see it in others.

You allow yourself to proclaim your thoughts on what you believe regarding God, yet you hate to see others doing it here.

Just sayin’…

 

[Little_Star_1]

It sounds to me, Little Star, that you reserve for yourself the right to do everything to which you object in others.

You allow yourself to bicker with others as much as you hate to see it in others.

You allow yourself to proclaim your thoughts on what you believe regarding God, yet you hate to see others doing it here.

Just sayin’…

If you ever read any of my posts correctly, you would see what I have consistently spoken about is the nature in which others have been addressed and their ideas ridiculed. Truly, I don’t have an interest in what others believe. It is the right of every man and woman to find their truth of God in a manner that fits their hearts and minds. I don’t hate anyone doing anything on here except when they insult others or claim to own the one and the only true idea of God and to hold that within their faith as if no other is of any value. As if any faith can really hold all of God in its theories. How can an individual grow in faith and understanding as a child of God, a unique creation? Is it through theology? Seriously, it is not and was never intended to be, not for those souls that seek Him as a Father. Read the Bible, find the heart within it. The consistent message throughout. It is God’s wish to be personally known.

I stay away from here as much as possible to avoid myself being exposed to the silliness of it all. I am drawn here to have the opportunity to oppose the meanness of spirit which is so ripe in so many of the posts. Heck, most of my “bickering” has been about bickering and once again you provide a prime example. Goodness of heart is what God looks for in us.

 

[PRmerger]

If you ever read any of my posts correctly, you would see what I have consistently spoken about is the nature in which others have been addressed and their ideas ridiculed. Truly, I don’t have an interest in what others believe. It is the right of every man and woman to find their truth of God in a manner that fits their hearts and minds. I don’t hate anyone doing anything on here except when they insult others or claim to own the one and one true idea of God and to hold that within their faith as if no other is of any value. I stay away from here as much as possible to avoid myself being exposed to the silliness of it all. I am drawn here to have the opportunity to oppose the meanness of spirit which is so ripe in so many of the posts. Heck, most of my “bickering” has been about bickering and once again you provide a prime example. Goodness of heart is what God looks for in us.

And if you ever read any of my posts correctly, you would see that what I have consistently spoken about is the nature in which others have been addressed and their ideas ridiculed.

Again, you reserve for yourself to do what you criticize in others.

I don’t have a problem with disagreement here on the CAFs, with dialogue, debate, and with others posting opinions contrary to the Catholic Church.

I do have a problem with people saying “We shouldn’t do any of the above!” while doing exactly everything to which she is critical of others.

 

[Little_Star_1]

And if you ever read any of my posts correctly, you would see that what I have consistently spoken about is the nature in which others have been addressed and their ideas ridiculed.

Again, you reserve for yourself to do what you criticize in others.

I don’t have a problem with disagreement here on the CAFs, with dialogue, debate, and with others posting opinions contrary to the Catholic Church.

I do have a problem with people saying “We shouldn’t do any of the above!” while doing exactly everything to which she is critical of others.

Nope, that is not what I have done. Not about someone’s faith, but about their behavior, about the tone in their posts which is to condemn, not to nurture the other’s person’s right to love God as taught by their faith. To compare and contrast is one thing, to judge, another. If you don’t see the difference then you are not going to be capable of doing it. Love of God is a beautiful, the most beautiful experience of being human. Why stomp on someone for doing it in a manner that seems different from your own. In truth, it is not a bit different, just the words differ. Underneath it all, the understanding of God that has been developed in the heart is the same.

PR there is something very vital that you miss in your understanding and I don’t know how it can be given to you, for words will not do it. I am talking about sharing our experiences of God that we hold in our hearts. You want to debate the Lord God. Do you really think that the Truth of the Lord God is actually up for debate? Really?

 

[PRmerger]

You want to debate the Lord God. Do you really think that the Truth of the Lord God is actually up for debate? Really?

There is nothing at all wrong with debate, dialogue, discussion, discourse about the Truth of the Lord God.

That is what we are commanded to do, Little Star. At least, Christians are.

And I find it curious that you come to a FORUM, whose entire purpose is to debate, dialogue, discuss and discourse about Truth, and ask the above question. That is exactly the nature of a FORUM.

It is like going to the World Cup Soccer match and ask, “Why are these people running around kicking a ball?”

 

[Porknpie]

Porknpie, Good to have you back…

What you say is true. We Baha’is who are of Christian background couldn’t agree with you more.

Hi Daler,

Terrific. So you agree that we should believe ALL that Jesus taught as he was the Messiah. This is what you mean by saying “we couldn’t agree with you more.” All the quotes below are from Jesus, in Matthew 25

30 And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Christ teachings on hell is that it IS a physical place. That is what he taught the apostles…it’s what the apostles wrote in the bible and it’s what the Church has believed for 2,000 years. This conflicts with Baha’u’llah teaching hell is not a physical place.

So Baha’u’llah teaches that hell is not a physical place. My source for this is here

How do you reconcile the differences?

 

[Little_Star_1]

There is nothing at all wrong with debate, dialogue, discussion, discourse about the Truth of the Lord God.

That is what we are commanded to do, Little Star. At least, Christians are.

And I find it curious that you come to a FORUM, whose entire purpose is to debate, dialogue, discuss and discourse about Truth, and ask the above question. That is exactly the nature of a FORUM.

It is like going to the World Cup Soccer match and ask, “Why are these people running around kicking a ball?”

I guess you have a point; and, I guess that is why I usually stay away from forums. I came here hoping to learn to understand the Baha’i perspective. I was gladden when I found a thread that invited Baha’i to discuss their perspective. I was shocked when I found them greeted with hostility so often.

See, I was taken on a different route to God than most people I think. First there was God and then there was reading book after book, listening to sermon after sermon, reading the Bible, reading commentary on the Bible, year after year. Finally, it became obvious to me that I wasn’t learning about God. What I felt and knew of my Father did not change. The character and quality of that love was consistent. My ability to know Him is limited to what He wants me to know of Him. It is the same for all people of all times.

What changed was I saw that it all really wasn’t about learning about God. It was learning about me and who He wanted me to be, who He created me to be as His child walking this Earth in these times. The purpose is to know yourself through Him. Debate all you want. It wont change anything. God is God whether you are a Baha’i, Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, Hindu, whatever–God is God. You can only Know that portion of Him that resides in you.

I guess I don’t understand the “kick” some people get out of debating who and what God is. It doesn’t make sense to me and I see it as a endeavor into meaningless chatter. What would make sense is expressing our love for each other for the beauty in the fact that God has revealed Himself to all man and how we can return that love.

 

[Porknpie]

Baler,

As a follow up to the common belief that we should believe everything that Christ taught, is it your argument that the apostles misunderstood him?

 

[PRmerger]

I guess you have a point; and, I guess that is why I usually stay away from forums.

Fair enough.

So when you do come to a forum, any forum, expect a difference of opinion. Expect to see people disagreeing with each other. Expect to see debate, discourse and contrary opinions.

I came here hoping to learn to understand the Baha’i perspective. I was gladden when I found a thread that invited Baha’i to discuss their perspective. I was shocked when I found them greeted with hostility so often.

If you find anything hostile or uncharitable, I suggest you report the post to the moderators.

And I suggest you do not return with hostile or uncharitable remarks yourself. Because, again, it makes the appearance that you object to others what you reserve for yourself.

I guess I don’t understand the “kick” some people get out of debating who and what God is. It doesn’t make sense to me and I see it as a endeavor into meaningless chatter.

You may find it meaningless.

I think that you respond so negatively to it because you are being given questions you’ve never considered, and it makes you uncomfortable.

For example, you proclaim that you do not trust the words of men, of any institution, of any church…yet you also have never considered this point (until it was presented to you here on the CAFs): the ONLY way you know what Jesus said and did is through the institution of the Catholic Church.

That is why, I think, you don’t like to come to the CAFs and discuss.

Because when you do, it confronts your comfortable notions with something that makes you go, “Hmmm…”.

And you realize the inconsistency of your position.

If you don’t like to be confronted with different ideas, and want to remain comfortable in your own ideas, then don’t come to the CAFs.

But if you want to consider some ideas that you’ve never been presented with (such as that you actually have to trust the Catholic Church, and only the Catholic Church, to tell you what Jesus said and did…), then continue to learn and discuss and dialogue here with knowledgeable Catholics.