BAHA'I thread III - feel free to ask of Baha'i any questions

[Sen_McGlinn]

… it has never been a Christian doctrine that Christ entered into and rescued the souls condemned to hell. … The Apostles Creed states that Christ “descended into hell”. There is no doubt that the translation would make it difficult for one who has no access to Sacred Tradition to interpret these passages and writings correctly. This is why Scripture should never be read unless it is through the lens of the Church that produced it. …

I was not quoting the Apostle’s creed, Steve, although I might have (“descendit ad inferos”) if my memory was better. I was thinking rather of the 1992 catechism, which I had just read so it was fresh in my mind:

Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.

This is also Eastern Orthodox teaching. It is not a new thing, as we can see from the history of European literature and painting. So I think Abdu’l-Baha is quite right to say that most Christians have believed this. If you do not, that’s something we have in common.

However the thread was for questions about the Bahai Faith. Ask away

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

Yes, it is found in t**he Administrative Order **of Baha’u’llah

"THE world’s equilibrium hath been upset through the vibrating influence of this most great, this new World Order. Mankind’s ordered life hath been revolutionized through the agency of this unique, this wondrous System—the like of which mortal eyes have never witnessed."

It is the World Order, not the Administrative Order, that Baha’u’llah is referring to here Servant. The Administrative Order did not exist at that time, and it is something different. The new World Order is a way of ordering the world, based on unity, justice, law and above all the deep awareness of the oneness of humanity, expressed in action. The Administrative Order is a system of church government that embodies the same principles, but has a more limited purpose. There’s any entry on this on my Bahai Studies blog.

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

It seems you have a better grasp on your own religion than others. But I still maintain that the ultimate goal of the bahai religion is impossible and that even if you were to have your Utopia (for we should not mince words, thats what it is) evil will still prevail. Corruption would seep into the highest levels, as in any government, abortion would still exist, sexual sin would still exist, so my basic question has not been answered. As long as human beings exist there will be evil and it seems believe that evil is an ever present reality, there will not be a time when there are no tears, when Christ’s return is like a trumpet blast that every will know about, when sin and evil will have no more room in this world to live, when there is a new heaven and a new earth. The basic question of mine remains, when will God put this world to rights? Will he? Or is a one world universal government the only solution bahais offer?

Not the only solution, but one half of the solution. On the one hand, we believe that this world can, with the help of God, be reshaped in accordance with God’s will, which is to see His children dealing with one another good children of one family. A world federal system is one aspect of this: many other things are also involved. In his letter to the Central Organization for a Durable Peace (the “tablet to the Hague”) he writes:

These manifold principles, which constitute the greatest basis for the felicity of mankind and are of the bounties of the Merciful, must be added to the matter of universal peace and combined with it, so that results may accrue. Otherwise the realization of universal peace by itself in the world of mankind is difficult. … If the question is restricted to universal peace alone, the remarkable results which are expected and desired will not be attained. The scope of universal peace must be such that all the communities and religions may find their highest wish realized in it.
(Selections from the Writings of Abdu’l-Baha, p. 304)

This new world order is not envisioned as a world without sin, for evil (the absence of good) is always potential in free will. Bahais believe that in this world we always have free will, so the potential for sin is always present. The new world order is to be sustained by an awareness of the oneness of humanity, and maintained by a Tribunal that can enforce its verdicts. It’s practical, not utopian. But in the next world, we do not have free will. The world you look for, when sin and evil will be no more, is coming, for you and for everyone, as we all die.

This programme of principles for " the felicity of mankind" is one part of what Baha’u’llah has to offer. The other part is “to know and to worship God.” This is the root of the tree, while justice, fellowship, and peace are among the fruits.

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

… So you say there is progress, but thats simply because you want to see it, you have to believe mankind is growing better but when you look at this time and in history you see the same thing. We might be more complex in thinking than those in the past but one thing is clear, mankind cannot save itself, God must save us. Hence I must believe bahai hold to the most rediculous of all beliefs, that humans can create heaven on earth for themselves.

As has been noted here, Bahais do believe that a better world cannot be achieved without the support of the Holy Spirit, and the transformation of individuals. In particular, the awareness of the oneness of humanity has to become central to our personal lives and our social action.

I am concerned that your negative view of the direction the world is taking might become disempowering for you. Objectively speaking, the world is in fact getting better, thanks to the efforts of those who believe a better world is possible, and a widespread change in attitudes on a host of issues. See for example Pinker’s The Better Angels of Our Nature

In any case, the Church’s social teachings and the example of Christ are not conditioned on prospects of quick success. I am sure you are in fact committed to implementing them, so I urge you to look for the signs of progress, to see them because you want to see them, as we do. The road is a little easier to walk, when you can do it with a bounce in your step.
:bounce:

 

[PRmerger]

If the generality of Baha’is believed that Abdu’l-Baha was a Manifestation of God, (and this was found written in the Baha’i Encyclopedia), and you made a comment saying “Most Baha’is believe that Abdu’l-Baha was a Manifestation of God. This is an erroneous belief”

I would respond with the wrords “Well done PR, there is a mistake in the baha’i Encyclopedia and most Baha’is have an incorrect belief in thinking that Abdu’-Baha is a Manifestation of God”

No, Servant. I didn’t ask how you would react to me.

Would you tell us that it is unfair to judge the member (who, in this analogy, is paralleled to Abdu’l-Baha) by his erroneous assumption?

If I were a Bahai I would tell him that he needs to understand exactly what the Bahai faith teaches before criticizing it.

 

[Servant19]

No, Servant. I didn’t ask how you would react to me.

Would you tell us that it is unfair to judge the member (who, in this analogy, is paralleled to Abdu’l-Baha) by his erroneous assumption?

If I were a Bahai I would tell him that he needs to understand exactly what the Bahai faith teaches before criticizing it.

Was there a member here criticizing original sin?

If there was, I must’ve missed it.

If I’m barking up the wrong tree, I must be misunderstanding the point you are trying to make…

 

[Servant19]

It is the World Order, not the Administrative Order, that Baha’u’llah is referring to here Servant. The Administrative Order did not exist at that time, and it is something different. The new World Order is a way of ordering the world, based on unity, justice, law and above all the deep awareness of the oneness of humanity, expressed in action. The Administrative Order is a system of church government that embodies the same principles, but has a more limited purpose. There’s any entry on this on my Bahai Studies blog.

Hi Sen, yes I appreciate what you are pointing out, and great blog entry btw

Wouldn’t you say though that the Administrative Order, while a separate entity to the World Order of Baha’u’llah is an integral part of it?

The SYSTEM being employed within both orders will bear great similarities, namely consultative processes and responsibility to God, won’t they?

I’m not so well read on the Guardians letters, I need to revisit them!

 

[rinnie]

Rinnie wrote above:

So it is IMPOSSIBLE for Baha’i to be conceived without original sin, unless you can prove his Mother and Father were saved from it also.

Could you show me that teaching?

My comment:

Well Rennie my understanding is that Baha’is don’t believe in “original sin”… that’s what many Christians believe so it’s not our belief to begin with…

*But the mass of the Christians believe that, as Adam ate of the forbidden tree, He sinned in that He disobeyed, and that the disastrous consequences of this disobedience have been transmitted as a heritage and have remained among His descendants. Hence Adam became the cause of the death of humanity. This explanation is unreasonable and evidently wrong, for it means that all men, even the Prophets and the Messengers of God, without committing any sin or fault, but simply because they are the posterity of Adam, have become without reason guilty sinners, and until the day of the sacrifice of Christ were held captive in hell in painful torment. This is far from the justice of God. If Adam was a sinner, what is the sin of Abraham? What is the fault of Isaac, or of Joseph? Of what is Moses guilty?

~ Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 120

Well according to the word of God the result of original sin is death. If original sin is rejected why is there human death?

Secondly it seems Baha’i does not understand the meaning of original sin.

Original sin and actual sin are completely different.

As far as the sins of Abraham there are many, I am not to judge him, but one for sure is adulterly. He had sex with his maid out of marriage and look at the disaster that became.

Moses had his sins also. Read numbers.

But the point is not rather you disagree with the word of God or not it is the word of God.

The word of God states if you eat from the forbidden fruit you shall die. Why is there pangs of childbirth? Only after the disobedience of God. Women do have great pain, TRUST ME!

We work by the sweat of our face we shall get bread to eat. Don’t we do that today?

All of the word of God tells us we will suffer until we return to the ground from which we were taken.

Now if you reject original sin how do you explain we don’t live in paradise the same as Adam and Eve started out?

So you either have to agree that we are punished for that sin, or we are living in paradise today? Do you feel this is paradise?

You do not see hate in the world? Murder? Violence? Greed? This world is not paradise.

So if we are not punished for the sins of Adam and Eve why are we thrown out of paradise also? Why did we not start out just like Adam and Eve and given the same chance to sin or not sin?

 

[rinnie]

This may well be true, you can reject as you wish dear friend Pork. The Pharisees said the same things when Jesus arrived and challenged their entire mess that they had made in God’s Kingdom.

Baha’u’llah has similarly come to challenge the religious institutions of past Dispensations.

“Let deeds not words be your adorning”

This stern rejection of the deeds of religious hierarchy being in any way different from the “official Church teaching” is the old world, old heaven and old earth that Baha’u’llah has come to overthrow.

No individual holds the keys to God’s land. God has created institutions to be infallible in this Day, since the acts and deeds of individuals have proven to be lamentably defective, especially by those individuals who cling onto old Traditions, when it is clear that God has Revealed Himself again through another Manifestation of God.

But see we have a problem here also. We believe Jesus is indeed God, which I believe you understand now.

Okay, Jesus said to Peter to you I give the keys to the kingdom, so anotherwards the Pope has the keys to teach us through the Holy Spirit even today.

By the way Old Traditions are not what you think. Traditions of God we still must cling to. Jesus never changed that.

He was speaking to the Jews who had man made traditions that made up for their own gain.

Another wards they were taking off of the poor who could not afford it to give the rich who were themselves given more. Or to make it clearer, making them think they were giving to God, but in truth the poor were giving to the Jews for their own selfish needs.
Thats what Jesus was speaking about.

 

[rinnie]

Was there a member here criticizing original sin?

If there was, I must’ve missed it.

If I’m barking up the wrong tree, I must be misunderstanding the point you are trying to make…

Yes sweetie in post 992 I addressed the question given to me.

According to Arthra your faith rejects original sin. Read the post it will show you. Thanks

 

[eddie_too]

it is amusing, at least to me, how similar the mormon and bahai religions are. a prominent feature that both share is to take the sacred scriptures written by, preserved by and interpreted consistently by the RCC and to spin the sacred scripture by giving them an entirely different meaning from the historically consistent meaning provided to the world by the christian community that was created by Jesus.

another prominent feature is the way both mormons and bahai teach that their founder was directed by the Holy Spirit. they both affirm this by the feelings they get from their religions. they both claim that Jesus’ life, death and resurrection were not sufficient for the salvation of mankind.

they both rely on new scriptures that they claim have the Holy Spirit as their origin.

perhaps we christians should realize that false prophets often, if not always, have similar traits that betray the lack of truth in their beliefs, the most prominent feature of false religions seems to be their absolute determination to re-interpret the life, death, resurrection and teachings of Jesus.

 

[Lochias]

Have a good sleep Steve

I think you are assuming that Abdul-Baha does not know what the reality of hell is

I did read the Catechism you quoted. As far as I can see, your objection is that there is no “painful torment” for all the souls that were awaiting in Hades for Jesus’ salvation.

The reality is that where it says in the Catechism “those who are there are deprived of the vision of God” EQUALS “painful torment”

I can think of no worse torment than to be deprived of the vision of God, my Creator and Beloved, whether I was in Abraham’s bosom or not.

What makes you think that the souls who were awaiting entry into Heaven were deprived of the vision of God?

Or are you simply going to dismiss yet again what you’ve been told in favor of what you’d rather believe? I understand it can be hard to admit that one has been mistaken in their assumptions if it goes counter to a belief system that they’ve structured their life around, but if you’re really looking for the Truth and not just a club that you can “feel good” in, you need to open your eyes and ears.

 

[eddie_too]

i wonder if servant19 thinks he is in the worst of torments in this life or does he think he is experiencing the beatific vision in this life?

afterall, he wrote that he can think of no greater torment than being deprived of the beatific vision.

on my part, i believe there are degrees of torment even within the confines of the eternal punishment that is the just reward of the unrepentant sinner.

 

[SteveVH]

I was not quoting the Apostle’s creed, Steve, although I might have (“descendit ad inferos”) if my memory was better. I was thinking rather of the 1992 catechism, which I had just read so it was fresh in my mind:

Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.

This is also Eastern Orthodox teaching. It is not a new thing, as we can see from the history of European literature and painting. So I think Abdu’l-Baha is quite right to say that most Christians have believed this. If you do not, that’s something we have in common.

However the thread was for questions about the Bahai Faith. Ask away

When speaking of heaven and hell and purgatory we are speaking of states of being, rather than physical places. Those condemned to hell are deprived of the vision of God, and every aspect of his being. Those just who died prior to Christ’s passion and death were deprived of the vision of God as well because the gates of heaven had not yet been opened. We, who are now living on the earth are also deprived of the vision of God, at least a clear vision of God. We do not now see him face to face as we will in heaven.

My point is that none of us have been there and back to report on it. But we know that God is a loving God and that whatever deprivation the just souls experienced was not the deprivation of those poor souls damned to hell through their own choice.

The Catholic doctrine of purgatory describes this state of being as a burning fire; meaning purification. Those in Purgatory are deprived of the vision of God as well. Any pain we experience there is the pain of realizing how much we have offended God in this life; feelings of sorrow and a great longing to be with our Father in heaven. But they also receive consolations and are filled with hope. They will see heaven someday. The damned have no hope.

So you see that there are different states of being after death and only those in heaven receive the beatific vision; seeing God as he really is, face to face. IOW the experience and the fate of those in “hell” awaiting redemption was not the same as those who were already damned, even though they both are deprived of the vision of God. The Church clearly distinguishes between the two and always has, which was not done by Abdu’l-Baha.

And yes, I am aware that this is a Baha’i thread. When the doctrines and beliefs of the Catholic Church are stated erroneously, however, they will be defended.

 

[SteveVH]

Was there a member here criticizing original sin?

If there was, I must’ve missed it.

If I’m barking up the wrong tree, I must be misunderstanding the point you are trying to make…

We are speaking of Abdu’l-Baha, one of the leaders of your faith, who criticized the doctrine of original sin based on a false claim. You know exactly what PR is saying, we don’t need to play games.

 

[SteveVH]

What makes you think that the souls who were awaiting entry into Heaven were deprived of the vision of God?

Everyone who is not yet in heaven experiences the depravation of the vision of God to one extent or another. It is the “great longing” in every in every human heart. The Catechism tells us that those awaiting entry into heaven were deprived of the vision of God which makes perfect sense; they had not yet reached heaven. The problem is in comparing this to the damned in hell where there is total deprivation and no hope.

 

[SteveVH]

it is amusing, at least to me, how similar the mormon and bahai religions are. a prominent feature that both share is to take the sacred scriptures written by, preserved by and interpreted consistently by the RCC and to spin the sacred scripture by giving them an entirely different meaning from the historically consistent meaning provided to the world by the christian community that was created by Jesus.

another prominent feature is the way both mormons and bahai teach that their founder was directed by the Holy Spirit. they both affirm this by the feelings they get from their religions. they both claim that Jesus’ life, death and resurrection were not sufficient for the salvation of mankind.

they both rely on new scriptures that they claim have the Holy Spirit as their origin.

perhaps we christians should realize that false prophets often, if not always, have similar traits that betray the lack of truth in their beliefs, the most prominent feature of false religions seems to be their absolute determination to re-interpret the life, death, resurrection and teachings of Jesus.

And they both believe in a salvation based upon the progress of mankind rather than the grace of Jesus Christ.

 

[Servant19]

And they both believe in a salvation based upon the progress of mankind rather than the grace of Jesus Christ.

Maybe the Catholic and/and principle can be applied here Steve?

 

[SteveVH]

Maybe the Catholic and/and principle can be applied here Steve?

Maybe. But I have yet to see any evidence that this is true. I don’t think the Baha’i have a concept of “Grace”. Maybe you can help explain.

 

[Servant19]

Everyone who is not yet in heaven experiences the depravation of the vision of God to one extent or another. It is the “great longing” in every in every human heart. The Catechism tells us that those awaiting entry into heaven were deprived of the vision of God which makes perfect sense; they had not yet reached heaven. The problem is in comparing this to the damned in hell where there is total deprivation and no hope.

THANKYOU for clarifying that to Lochias, Steve. Lochias, I would advise you say a prayer before you post, it may allow you to post with a kinder tone

Steve, Abdul-Baha never wrote that this was “where there is total deprivation and no hope”.
He simply talked about the torment of being deprived of the vision of God. It’s unjust.

And you may say that life is lovely in Abraham’s bosom, but what of those Prophets and sinless souls before Abraham. What torment did they suffer?