BAHA'I thread III - feel free to ask of Baha'i any questions

[Randy_Carson]

Hang on you’re talking about a human soul here, not a physical body.

Yes God has something amazing awaiting us as His lovers, but no eye has seen, because no eye is needed, and no ear has heard because no ear is needed.

In fact, what God has in store for us requires NOTHING physical at all

Let’s be clear about the resurrection of the dead. The dead are raised, and they have spiritual or glorified bodies.

1 Corinthians 15:35-57
35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”[f]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we[g] bear the image of the heavenly man.

50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”[h]

55 “Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”*
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

The dead will be raised in bodies that surpass our understanding. They will not be pure spirit.*

 

[Servant19]

Randy, my friend, a spiritual body is not a physical body…

This theology is confusing to say the very least. It’s a physical resurrection, but its a spiritual body

What then is the definition of a spiritual body?
How does that differ with the definition of a “spirit”?
…since the spiritual body is not a spirit…

…and while you’re at it, does Catholicism offer a definition of the human soul?

Thankyou

 

[Randy_Carson]

Yes God has something amazing awaiting us as His lovers, but no eye has seen, because no eye is needed, and no ear has heard because no ear is needed.

This is a non sequitur.

“No eye has seen” simply means that no one has yet gazed upon the glory of God. “No ear had heard” simply means that no one has yet listened to the sound of the angelic host praising God.

No eye and no ear refer to the timing of sequential events - seeing and hearing the things of heaven have not happened yet. There is no implication that eyes and ears are not needed. This is pure eisegesis.

In fact, what God has in store for us requires NOTHING physical at all

If no eye has seen what God has in store, then how do you know with certainty that no eye is needed? You’ve never seen it. :dancing:

 

[Servant19]

This is a non sequitur.

“No eye has seen” simply means that no one has yet gazed upon the glory of God. “No ear had heard” simply means that no one has yet listened to the sound of the angelic host praising God.

No eye and no ear refer to the timing of sequential events - seeing and hearing the things of heaven have not happened yet. There is no implication that eyes and ears are not needed. This is pure eisegesis.

If no eye has seen what God has in store, then how do you know with certainty that no eye is needed? You’ve never seen it. :dancing:

Randy, may I please suggest you go through some of the content of the previous Bahai threads?

These points regarding life after death have been addressed very thoroughly before

If there are questions from those previous posts please quote and ask away…

 

[Randy_Carson]

Randy, my friend, a spiritual body is not a physical body…

This theology is confusing to say the very least. It’s a physical resurrection, but its a spiritual body

What then is the definition of a spiritual body?
How does that differ with the definition of a “spirit”?
…since the spiritual body is not a spirit…

…and while you’re at it, does Catholicism offer a definition of the human soul?

Thankyou

It’s a “glorified” body which you can still touch but is no longer bound by physical limitations. Can a saint with a glorified body hear our prayers? Can a glorified body be in two places at once? These things and more are possible.

Now to your questtions about the nature of man. I was influenced by Watchman Nee who taught that man is a tri-partite being: spirit, soul and body. This is NOT Catholic theology:

The spirit is that part of man which may be open to God. It is composed of intuition, communion and conscience. The mind is that by which we reason, feel and choose. It is composed of intellect, emotion and will. The body is…well, the body. It is that part of man which others see and it is subject to desires of the flesh such as food and sex.

The battle for the mind occurs when the body, sensing the pleasures and things of this world pulls the man in a way that is displeasing to God. The spirit of man, if it has been regenerated through baptism and the indwelling of God’s Spirit, leads the man away from sin, Satan and the World. The mind is caught between two forces and must choose (will) using right reason (intellect). Having chosen wisely, man may then enjoy the feeling of good choices (emotion).

Rightly ordered, man lives by faith, fact and feeling. Sin occurs often when we allow our emotions or our flesh to sway our intellect into choosing things that displease God.

All that having been said, the Catholic Church teaches that man is composed of body and soul. The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines it this way:

II. “BODY AND SOUL BUT TRULY ONE”

362 The human person, created in the image of God, is a being at once corporeal and spiritual. The biblical account expresses this reality in symbolic language when it affirms that "then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being."229 Man, whole and entire, is therefore willed by God.

363 In Sacred Scripture the term “soul” often refers to human life or the entire human person.230 But “soul” also refers to the innermost aspect of man, that which is of greatest value in him,231 that by which he is most especially in God’s image: “soul” signifies the spiritual principle in man.

364 The human body shares in the dignity of “the image of God”: it is a human body precisely because it is animated by a spiritual soul, and it is the whole human person that is intended to become, in the body of Christ, a temple of the Spirit:232

Man, though made of body and soul, is a unity. Through his very bodily condition he sums up in himself the elements of the material world. Through him they are thus brought to their highest perfection and can raise their voice in praise freely given to the Creator. For this reason man may not despise his bodily life. Rather he is obliged to regard his body as good and to hold it in honor since God has created it and will raise it up on the last day. 233
365 The unity of soul and body is so profound that one has to consider the soul to be the “form” of the body:234 i.e., it is because of its spiritual soul that the body made of matter becomes a living, human body; spirit and matter, in man, are not two natures united, but rather their union forms a single nature.

366 The Church teaches that every spiritual soul is created immediately by God - it is not “produced” by the parents - and also that it is immortal: it does not perish when it separates from the body at death, and it will be reunited with the body at the final Resurrection.235

367 Sometimes the soul is distinguished from the spirit: St. Paul for instance prays that God may sanctify his people “wholly”, with “spirit and soul and body” kept sound and blameless at the Lord’s coming.236 The Church teaches that this distinction does not introduce a duality into the soul.237 “Spirit” signifies that from creation man is ordered to a supernatural end and that his soul can gratuitously be raised beyond all it deserves to communion with God.238

368 The spiritual tradition of the Church also emphasizes the heart, in the biblical sense of the depths of one’s being, where the person decides for or against God.239

scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c1p6.htm#II

 

[arthra]

Among Baha’is we don’t normally speculate a lot about the decaying physical bodies rising from literal graves. We take it as raising from the graves of disbelief…

All the signs appeared when We drew forth the Hand of Power from the bosom of majesty and might. Verily, the Crier hath cried out, when the promised time came, and they that have recognized the splendors of Sinai have swooned away in the wilderness of hesitation, before the awful majesty of thy Lord, the Lord of creation. The trumpet asketh: ‘Hath the Bugle been sounded?’ Say: ‘Yea, by the King of Revelation!, when He mounted the throne of His Name, the All-Merciful.’ Darkness hath been chased away by the dawning-light of the mercy of thy Lord, the Source of all light. The breeze of the All-Merciful hath wafted, and the souls have been quickened in the tombs of their bodies. Thus hath the decree been fulfilled by God, the Mighty, the Beneficent. They that have gone astray have said: ‘When were the heavens cleft asunder?’ Say: ‘While ye lay in the graves of waywardness and error.’ Among the heedless is he who rubbeth his eyes, and looketh to the right and to the left. Say: ‘Blinded art thou. No refuge hast thou to flee to.’ And among them is he who saith: ‘Have men been gathered together?’ Say: ‘Yea, by my Lord!, whilst thou didst lie in the cradle of idle fancies.’

~ Baha’u’llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 131

The concept of resurrection for us more when the Manifestation appears and men are judged by their response…

For he who had believed in God and in the Manifestation of His beauty was raised from the grave of heedlessness, gathered together in the sacred ground of the heart, quickened to the life of faith and certitude, and admitted into the paradise of the divine presence. What paradise can be loftier than this, what ingathering mightier, and what resurrection greater? Indeed, should a soul be acquainted with these mysteries, he would grasp that which none other hath fathomed.

~ Baha’u’llah, Gems of Divine Mysteries, p. 40

 

[Randy_Carson]

Randy, may I please suggest you go through some of the content of the previous Bahai threads?

These points regarding life after death have been addressed very thoroughly before

If there are questions from those previous posts please quote and ask away…

If I were interested in learning more about your religion, I would. Just as you could go read the Catechism if you really wanted to learn more about the Catholic view of the soul. I’m not and you won’t.

Therefore, we’re probably better off just interacting with one another in “real time” as opposed to making references to old threads.

 

[arthra]

If I were interested in learning more about your religion, I would. Just as you could go read the Catechism if you really wanted to learn more about the Catholic view of the soul. I’m not and you won’t.

Therefore, we’re probably better off just interacting with one another in “real time” as opposed to references to old threads.

Then probably not much to be gained by argumentation any way…

 

[Randy_Carson]

Then probably not much to be gained by argumentation any way…

Agreed, and there are other threads that are more interesting.

Adios.

:tiphat:

 

[eddie_too]

important differences between bahai and christianity.

the bahai believe individuals are involve in an eternal process of spiritual growth.

christians believe that individuals who die in the state of sanctifying grace (meaning with God’s life in their souls) will ultimately reside eternally in perfect union with God, the process of spiritual growth ends.

the bahai believe that the process spiritual growth is the objective of human life. this makes it perfectly sensible for the process to be eternal.

christians believe perfect and eternal union with God is the objective of human life.

this is a basic difference between bahai and christianity. the bahai teach that progress toward God is heaven. christians teach that perfect union with God is heaven.

this makes it difficult when speaking of bahai to speak of salvation since, to them, man is meant to grow eternally. but, in a sense, the bahai are teaching that men save (remebering that to the bahai being saved is etrnally progressing toward God rather than away from God) themselves.

christians believe they are saved by the atoning sacrifice of the Incarnate Word.

bahai believe souls are eternally without their bodies after death. therefore, for the bahai, in the afterlife, no one sees, or tastes, or touches, or hears, or smells anything, since these are functions of the body and humans do not have a body after death.

christians believe that their bodies are re-united with their souls that left the body at the point of death in this world.

the most important difference is that the bahai do not believe that God became man. of course, God becoming man is the essence of christianity.

there are many other differences, but these are among the most important.

 

[Servant19]

It’s a “glorified” body which you can still touch but is no longer bound by physical limitations. Can a saint with a glorified body hear our prayers? Can a glorified body be in two places at once? These things and more are possible.

Now to your questtions about the nature of man. I was influenced by Watchman Nee who taught that man is a tri-partite being: spirit, soul and body. This is NOT Catholic theology:

The spirit is that part of man which may be open to God. It is composed of intuition, communion and conscience. The mind is that by which we reason, feel and choose. It is composed of intellect, emotion and will. The body is…well, the body. It is that part of man which others see and it is subject to desires of the flesh such as food and sex.

The battle for the mind occurs when the body, sensing the pleasures and things of this world pulls the man in a way that is displeasing to God. The spirit of man, if it has been regenerated through baptism and the indwelling of God’s Spirit, leads the man away from sin, Satan and the World. The mind is caught between two forces and must choose (will) using right reason (intellect). Having chosen wisely, man may then enjoy the feeling of good choices (emotion).

Rightly ordered, man lives by faith, fact and feeling. Sin occurs often when we allow our emotions or our flesh to sway our intellect into choosing things that displease God.

All that having been said, the Catholic Church teaches that man is composed of body and soul. The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines it this way:

II. “BODY AND SOUL BUT TRULY ONE”

362 The human person, created in the image of God, is a being at once corporeal and spiritual. The biblical account expresses this reality in symbolic language when it affirms that "then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being."229 Man, whole and entire, is therefore willed by God.

363 In Sacred Scripture the term “soul” often refers to human life or the entire human person.230 But “soul” also refers to the innermost aspect of man, that which is of greatest value in him,231 that by which he is most especially in God’s image: “soul” signifies the spiritual principle in man.

364 The human body shares in the dignity of “the image of God”: it is a human body precisely because it is animated by a spiritual soul, and it is the whole human person that is intended to become, in the body of Christ, a temple of the Spirit:232

Man, though made of body and soul, is a unity. Through his very bodily condition he sums up in himself the elements of the material world. Through him they are thus brought to their highest perfection and can raise their voice in praise freely given to the Creator. For this reason man may not despise his bodily life. Rather he is obliged to regard his body as good and to hold it in honor since God has created it and will raise it up on the last day. 233
365 The unity of soul and body is so profound that one has to consider the soul to be the “form” of the body:234 i.e., it is because of its spiritual soul that the body made of matter becomes a living, human body; spirit and matter, in man, are not two natures united, but rather their union forms a single nature.

366 The Church teaches that every spiritual soul is created immediately by God - it is not “produced” by the parents - and also that it is immortal: it does not perish when it separates from the body at death, and it will be reunited with the body at the final Resurrection.235

367 Sometimes the soul is distinguished from the spirit: St. Paul for instance prays that God may sanctify his people “wholly”, with “spirit and soul and body” kept sound and blameless at the Lord’s coming.236 The Church teaches that this distinction does not introduce a duality into the soul.237 “Spirit” signifies that from creation man is ordered to a supernatural end and that his soul can gratuitously be raised beyond all it deserves to communion with God.238

368 The spiritual tradition of the Church also emphasizes the heart, in the biblical sense of the depths of one’s being, where the person decides for or against God.239

scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c1p6.htm#II

Thanks for this Randy, I learnt a lot about Catholicisms view of the human condition. Bears a lot of similarities to the Bahai view

Could you please answer the question:

What then is the definition of a spiritual body?
How does that differ with the definition of a “spirit”?
…since the spiritual body is not a spirit…

 

[eddie_too]

a bahai error that needs correction, the aramaic language is NOT extinct. it is still spoken in the middle east.

 

[eddie_too]

i wonder if when servant19 speaks of a “spritual body” he is referring to the christian doctrine of a "glorified body’?

if nothing else, the bahai posting here are quite intent on displaying their ignorance of what christians teach and believe.

 

[eddie_too]

what did bahaullah give to mankind that Jesus had not already given?

 

[eddie_too]

i read earlier that bahaullah was a unique individual as though this is significant.

i fail to see the significance of bahaullah being a unique individual when every human being who ever existed and ever will exist are ALL unique individuals.

 

[eddie_too]

what good reason is there to trade the teachings of Christ, the Incarnate Word, for the teachings of someone who has in his own words told us he is only a human being?

people who would do that are typically going to get the bad end of every deal.

 

[Servant19]

Hey Eddie

This was posted by Randy.

The spiritual body is used in Corinthians 15. I’ve read the Bible from cover to cover, and you choose to call me ignorant.

The Baha’is have been called rude, ignorant and condescending. A bit harsh but all water off a ducks back.

We are happy to put ourselves in any position to be of service to you all, mock us, deride us, we will turn the other cheek

Let’s be clear about the resurrection of the dead. The dead are raised, and they have spiritual or glorified bodies.

1 Corinthians 15:35-57
35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”[f]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we[g] bear the image of the heavenly man.

50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”[h]

55 “Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”*
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

The dead will be raised in bodies that surpass our understanding. They will not be pure spirit.*

 

[SteveVH]

Steve, fair enough, but what is divine reality?

If it Truth coincides with another reality, surely that “other” reality must be defineable, so what is the definition of divine reality?

Divine reality is God’s reality; a reality that is eternally above us and above the laws of the created world.

I find it a little humorous that you are the first to say that God cannot be defined in human terms, and I would agree with you. Then when he does something that cannot be defined in human terms you object: “This doesn’t make sense to my human mind so it cannot be true. It must mean something else.”

 

[Servant19]

what good reason is there to trade the teachings of Christ, the Incarnate Word, for the teachings of someone who has in his own words told us he is only a human being?

people who would do that are typically going to get the bad end of every deal.

Baha’u’llah has said the following:
“When I contemplate, O my God, the relationship that bindeth me to Thee, I am moved to proclaim to all created things ‘verily I am God!’; and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!”

As regards to why follow His teachings. It’s simple, His teachings will bring about the Kingdom of God on earth.

 

[Servant19]

Divine reality is God’s reality; a reality that is eternally above us and above the laws of the created world.

I find it a little humorous that you are the first to say that God cannot be defined in human terms, and I would agree with you. Then when he does something that cannot be defined in human terms you object: “This doesn’t make sense to my human mind so it cannot be true. It must mean something else.”

Actually the reason why I say all this is that when something does occur on the physical plane, which seems contrary to the norm, you call it supernatural, or undefinable, or even divine.

Baha’is call it natural, soon to be definable by science and really nothing divine at all. If it relates to the human heart it is divine. If it relates to the physical universe, it is natural.

The body is sown a natural body, and is raised a spiritual (or divine) body. They are two different scopes of existence. The spirit world and the natural world are not one and the same world.

In terms of supernatural matters. If it occurs in the natural world, it is not supernatural. Give a man from 2000 years ago an iPhone and ask him to call his friend, and he would swear blind it was a supernatural event…natural truth is relative