Baha'i understanding of revelation

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

In a thread on the Scripture forum about the meaning of 666 in the Bible there is a poster of the Baha’i faith.

He seems to have an issue with the Catholic Teaching that there will be no further public revelation following that of Jesus.

He states.

The most recent Divine Manifestations:
Moses
Jesus
Muhammad
the Báb & Bahá’u’lláh

I am wondering why Joseph Smith and Moromism is left out of this list.

 

[Big_Ro]

I’m not sure if you are trying to be funny, but I found your post hilarious. Sorry no offense.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I’m not sure if you are trying to be funny, but I found your post hilarious. Sorry no offense.

No offense taken, this is just something that came to mind the other night.

The poster seemed to discredit the Catholic Teaching (and that is putting it mildly) that public revelation is closed.

He then went on to give the list I quoted. My question is why just those, why not other revelations that claim to be public and claim to superceed the revelation given to the Church.

If one opens the door to further public revelations then how can one pick and choose which are true and valid and which are not.

 

[ralphinal]

I would say that it is typical that the “last” prophet be the one making the prophecy.

In other words, JS was later, so he is left out.

 

[Mickey]

I usually try to ignore the Baha’is. They are very cultish.

 

[Eucharisted]

In a thread on the Scripture forum about the meaning of 666 in the Bible there is a poster of the Baha’i faith.

He seems to have an issue with the Catholic Teaching that there will be no further public revelation following that of Jesus.

He states.

I am wondering why Joseph Smith and Moromism is left out of this list.

Typically a cult claims it has the last prophet, the prophet of prophets, such as Mormonism, the Baha’i Faith, Islam, etc. Typically a cult links itself to powerful figures like Jesus Christ, whether to appear authentic, get new followers, or correct whatever the founder wishes to correct in the world (like an error he perceives in Jesus or in a religion). Typically, too, Jesus is either portrayed only as a man or only as a god, or as an angel or other entity, or as a god-man but not the only god-man or his divinity-humanity is believed differently from Christians.

So, if one prophet claims to be the last prophet, why bother saying other prophets that came after him are also prophets? It would disprove the prophet’s claim of being the last prophet, which in turn would undermine the new cult he has founded or is founded around him.

On a related note, Catholics believe Jesus Christ is the Revelation of God, God Himself, and you can’t get a better revelation of God than God Himself. Nor would God need to correct Himself, since He is perfect. And of those truths which He could not reveal yet, He promised to send His Spirit, that is, His Presence, the Love of the Father and the Son, which He did at Pentecost, as testified by His Word, which God Himself authored. Yet this would not be true if it not true, and it is true because we have historical evidence for it: the relics of Christ, the gospels and epistles, and so forth.

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

I would say that it is typical that the “last” prophet be the one making the prophecy.

In other words, JS was later, so he is left out.

Actually no, Joseph Smith preceeds Baha’u’llah in time. Bahai scripture recognises certain prophets and seers, but Joseph Smith is not mentioned one way or the other - the question never came up I guess. The Bahai scriptures also say that God never leaves any people without guidance, whether through saints seers prophets or the founders of religions (like Moses, Muhammad and Jesus). That means that there must have been many many inspired figures, most of whom are lost in history. And they must have been there in North and South America too. You can argue argue this from religion being a universal human dimension, or treat it as logically entailed by the idea of a just and merciful God. Since the Bahai scriptures do not name any such figures, each Bahai can look at the stories and make up their own mind. But since Joseph Smith preceeds Baha’u’llah, it’s not an existential issue: either way, we now have a new revelation, which unites us as Bahais

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

… So, if one prophet claims to be the last prophet, why bother saying other prophets that came after him are also prophets? .

But Bahai is unusual, in that Baha’u’llah did not claim to be the last prophet, in fact, he denied there ever would be a last prophet or an end to God’s mercy and revelation.

Baha’u’llah’s great-grandson Shoghi Effendi, the ‘Guardian’ (something like the official theologian) of the Bahai Faith wrote:

“The Faith standing identified with the name of Bahá’u’lláh disclaims any intention to belittle any of the Prophets gone before Him, to whittle down any of their teachings, to obscure, however slightly, the radiance of their Revelations, to oust them from the hearts of their followers, to abrogate the fundamentals of their doctrines, to discard any of their revealed Books, or to suppress the legitimate aspirations of their adherents. Repudiating the claim of any religion to be the final revelation of God to man, disclaiming finality for His own Revelation, Bahá’u’lláh inculcates the basic principle of the relativity of religious truth, the continuity of Divine Revelation, the progressiveness of religious experience. His aim is to widen the basis of all revealed religions and to unravel the mysteries of their scriptures. He insists on the unqualified recognition of the unity of their purpose, restates the eternal verities they enshrine, coordinates their functions, distinguishes the essential and the authentic from the nonessential and spurious in their teachings, separates the God-given truths from the priest-prompted superstitions, and on this as a basis proclaims the possibility, and even prophecies the inevitability, of their unification, and the consummation of their highest hopes.”
(Shoghi Effendi, The Promised Day is Come, p. 108)
Online at http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/se/PDC/pdc-28.html

 

[Eucharisted]

separates the God-given truths from the priest-prompted superstitions

And therein lies the problem. You cannot support one belief but not another in a religion if you support a religion, nor can you claim one belief is superstitious if the religious authorities say it isn’t, nor can you have the authority to say something is and something isn’t if you say you don’t exist to make authority declarations on religions but only to unite mankind. Thus, the Baha’i is self-contradicting; it says it dose not have the last prophet, yet claims to be the last word - the final judgment - on all religious matter, as if it holds such authority as to say what is and what isn’t. It is this hidden poison which few within Baha’i understand.

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

… the Baha’i is self-contradicting; it says it dose not have the last prophet, yet claims to be the last word - the final judgment - on all religious matter,

It’s certainly not what I understand the Bahai Faith to say - and I’ve been a Bahai for 30 years. Where did you find this?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

But Bahai is unusual, in that Baha’u’llah did not claim to be the last prophet, in fact, he denied there ever would be a last prophet or an end to God’s mercy and revelation.

Baha’u’llah’s great-grandson Shoghi Effendi, the ‘Guardian’ (something like the official theologian) of the Bahai Faith wrote:

“The Faith standing identified with the name of Bahá’u’lláh disclaims any intention to belittle any of the Prophets gone before Him, to whittle down any of their teachings, to obscure, however slightly, the radiance of their Revelations, to oust them from the hearts of their followers, to abrogate the fundamentals of their doctrines, to discard any of their revealed Books, or to suppress the legitimate aspirations of their adherents. Repudiating the claim of any religion to be the final revelation of God to man, disclaiming finality for His own Revelation, Bahá’u’lláh inculcates the basic principle of the relativity of religious truth, the continuity of Divine Revelation, the progressiveness of religious experience. His aim is to widen the basis of all revealed religions and to unravel the mysteries of their scriptures. He insists on the unqualified recognition of the unity of their purpose, restates the eternal verities they enshrine, coordinates their functions, distinguishes the essential and the authentic from the nonessential and spurious in their teachings, separates the God-given truths from the priest-prompted superstitions, and on this as a basis proclaims the possibility, and even prophecies the inevitability, of their unification, and the consummation of their highest hopes.”
(Shoghi Effendi, The Promised Day is Come, p. 108)
Online at reference.bahai.org/en/t/se/PDC/pdc-28.html

So your prophet makes claims to be the authority and the authority that my religion claims is nothing more than “priest-prompted superstitions”?

 

[Eucharisted]

It’s certainly not what I understand the Bahai Faith to say - and I’ve been a Bahai for 30 years. Where did you find this?

“The Faith standing identified with the name of Bahá’u’lláh disclaims any intention to belittle any of the Prophets gone before Him, to whittle down any of their teachings, to obscure, however slightly, the radiance of their Revelations, to oust them from the hearts of their followers, to abrogate the fundamentals of their doctrines, to discard any of their revealed Books, or to suppress the legitimate aspirations of their adherents. Repudiating the claim of any religion to be the final revelation of God to man, disclaiming finality for His own Revelation, Bahá’u’lláh inculcates the basic principle of the relativity of religious truth, the continuity of Divine Revelation, the progressiveness of religious experience. His aim is to widen the basis of all revealed religions and to unravel the mysteries of their scriptures. He insists on the unqualified recognition of the unity of their purpose, restates the eternal verities they enshrine, coordinates their functions, distinguishes the essential and the authentic from the nonessential and spurious in their teachings, separates the God-given truths from the priest-prompted superstitions, and on this as a basis proclaims the possibility, and even prophecies the inevitability, of their unification, and the consummation of their highest hopes.”
(Shoghi Effendi, The Promised Day is Come, p. 108)
Online at reference.bahai.org/en/t/se/PDC/pdc-28.html

So your prophet makes claims to be the authority and the authority that my religion claims is nothing more than “priest-prompted superstitions”?

Almost. Basically, they’re saying something like, “Your belief in one God is good,” but if the Orthodox have something they don’t agree with or like or find to be silly or whatever, they can call it superstitious. It would be better for them if they just said, “See all those silly misconceptions some believers in some religions believe in? Those are superstitious,” because that would be true, misconceptions and silly beliefs which some believers do hold - like the belief that Jesus is actually a real lion - are superstitious. But instead, they just point to those beliefs which they themselves don’t hold - such as the belief Jesus is God - and call it superstitious. It’s the equivalent of what the early pagans accused Christianity of: superstitious beliefs, except, it is magnified to include every religion.

 

[DavidMark]

In a thread on the Scripture forum about the meaning of 666 in the Bible there is a poster of the Baha’i faith.

He seems to have an issue with the Catholic Teaching that there will be no further public revelation following that of Jesus.

He states.
I am wondering why Joseph Smith and Moromism is left out of this list.

It is my belief, based on my rational understanding, that Joseph Smith never claimed to be the Return of Christ, but rather he was anticipating the near Return. Their Doctrine and Covenants reads:
D&C 1:12 Prepare ye, prepare ye for that which is to come, for the Lord is nigh

For how long will they wait for the Lord, if they really are saints of the ‘Latter Days’?
That is why the period is called the Latter Days --the end of one age and the beginning of another, which was the task of the Bab and Baha’u’llah Who did claim to be the Voice of God, just like the Burning Bush.
Isn’t Mormonism a branch of Christianity --even though it is very exotic, with purported golden tablets etc. At the same time as Joseph Smith. many other seers in East and West were anticipating the Advent of a divine Messenger. This is what I have been trying to alert everyone to. Not everyone in Judaism was intently awaiting the Messiah, but John the Baptist and His followers were. The same happened in Shí’ih Islam. The Shaykhi school, begun by Shakyh Ahmad in the late 1700s, was looking at the year 1260, (mentioned in the Bible as 1260 “days”, 43 "months, or 3.5 “times” or “years” each day of which is an actual year.) A student of that school of thought, Mullah Husayn, was drawn to Shiraz, in what was ancient Elam, when the time had come, and was met by His Holiness the Bab. This was May 22, 1844. The Baha’i calendar begins then.
A month later Joseph Smith was killed in Navoo, IL.

There is much more to indicate that Baha’u’llah fulfills everyones expectations for the Lord of the Kingdom, including the Mormons. And Baha’u’llah does not claim to be the last Messenger. None of them did. Progressive revelation is an ancient and eternal phenomenon. As long as there is a creation, the Creator will reveal His Will to people through divine Messengers.
I hope you take the time to look into it closer, Mickey. You will be called to account by Christ, when you go the Hereafter and find Him indistinguishable from His latter Advent in the Greatest Name, Baha’u’llah. They are aspects of One Glory, on the same Throne.

One more point. Jesus’ ministry was three years long, and a dozen or so of His followers wrote down what they had memorized of His aphorisms. Baha’u’llah’s ministry was 40 years long, and He wrote much of it Himself, or dictated much more than the volumne we have been used to, revealing those things we ‘could not bear’ before. This is why His Advent resembles a full moon, instead of a crescent or a half moon. The same light, but at maximum magnitude.

**O my God! O my God! Unite the hearts of Thy servants, and reveal to them Thy great purpose. May they follow Thy commandments and abide in Thy law. Help them, O God, in their endeavor, and grant them strength to serve Thee. O God! Leave them not to themselves, but guide their steps by the light of Thy knowledge, and cheer their hearts by Thy love. Verily, Thou art their Helper and their Lord. **- Bahá’u’lláh

 

[ralphinal]

Actually no, Joseph Smith preceeds Baha’u’llah in time. Bahai scripture recognises certain prophets and seers, but Joseph Smith is not mentioned one way or the other - the question never came up I guess. The Bahai scriptures also say that God never leaves any people without guidance, whether through saints seers prophets or the founders of religions (like Moses, Muhammad and Jesus). That means that there must have been many many inspired figures, most of whom are lost in history. And they must have been there in North and South America too. You can argue argue this from religion being a universal human dimension, or treat it as logically entailed by the idea of a just and merciful God. Since the Bahai scriptures do not name any such figures, each Bahai can look at the stories and make up their own mind. But since Joseph Smith preceeds Baha’u’llah, it’s not an existential issue: either way, we now have a new revelation, which unites us as Bahais

The point is taken, although the time was not far off. Basically, it would seem that Baha’u’llah was not told of what JS had said two decades earlier

Anyway, does this teach that you can just fit everything together?

 

[DavidMark]

And therein lies the problem. You cannot support one belief but not another in a religion if you support a religion, nor can you claim one belief is superstitious if the religious authorities say it isn’t, nor can you have the authority to say something is and something isn’t if you say you don’t exist to make authority declarations on religions but only to unite mankind. Thus, the Baha’i is self-contradicting; it says it dose not have the last prophet, yet claims to be the last word - the final judgment - on all religious matter, as if it holds such authority as to say what is and what isn’t. It is this hidden poison which few within Baha’i understand.

We can very well claim whatever be believe God says, just as was done before.
Baha’u’llah’s Word is Law until God speaks again. And God can change the prescription for mankinds ills if He chooses to. See how the patients balk and complain!

Recall how the very leaders of Judaism were termed ‘serpents’ for their obstructionism, and the gentile Greeks and Romans and so on were welcomed into God’s Faith.
Are you saying the early Christians erred to call their own leaders superstitious, when the Leader of Mankind said so? It is He who determines. And that Spirit has returned.

Baha’i is the Balance. Whatever the question, refer it to this Balance.
It is a matter of belief. When the first Christians heard Jesus interpret Scriptures they were familiar with, and give them fresh meanings, it was like turning water into wine.
We have no authority, as Baha’is, except what was given to faithful followers before.
We convey to you what our Best-Beloved said, because it is important that you know of this claim in the world.

In this most mighty Revelation all the Dispensations of the past have attained their highest and final consummation.(Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 244)

That which hath been made manifest in this preeminent, this most exalted Revelation, stands unparalleled in the annals of the past, nor will future ages witness its like.(Baha’u’llah, quoted in The World Order of Baha’u’llah, p. 103)

This last verse indicates that future prophets will be under the aegis of Baha’u’llah, in a very long cycle of unity, whereas from Adam to the Bab, was only a brief 6000 year cycle of prophetic expectation, waiting for the Lord to make Earth His foot-stool, and rule as He has a right.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

It is my belief, based on my rational understanding, that Joseph Smith never claimed to be the Return of Christ, but rather he was anticipating the near Return.

But Moses and Muhammad did not claim to be Christ either and your faith says that they are prophets.

Again, it seems that you pick and choose what you want.

We can very well claim whatever be believe God says, just as was done before.

But you seem to deny us that same right. God has spoken and revelation is closed according to Catholic Teaching. The Catholic Church is the Church of Christ so you can not claim him as a prophet (He was much more than just that, after all He claimed to be God and we recognize Him as such) and deny His Teachings.

 

[DavidMark]

For the birth of the Blessed Beauty Baha’u’llah, November 12, 1817, in Tehran, and the story of His Blessed life, please visit: teachingandprojects.com/artandmusic.htm

 

[ralphinal]

Which side does the Baha’i faith take in the difference between the Truth of what Christians believe and the incorrect information in Islam that they are said to believe?

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

So your prophet makes claims to be the authority and the authority that my religion claims is nothing more than “priest-prompted superstitions”?

I do not know if Shoghi Effendi had a particular religion, church or superstition in mind. I do know that he had the greatest respect for Catholicism and wrote:

As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that its divine origin is unconditionally acknowledged, that the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus Christ are fearlessly asserted, that the divine inspiration of the Gospel is fully recognized, that the reality of the mystery of the Immaculacy of the Virgin Mary is confessed, and the primacy of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, is upheld and defended. The Founder of the Christian Faith is designated by Bahá’u’lláh as the “Spirit of God,” is proclaimed as the One Who “appeared out of the breath of the Holy Ghost,” and is even extolled as the “Essence of the Spirit.” His mother is described as “that veiled and immortal, that most beauteous, countenance,” and the station of her Son eulogized as a “station which hath been exalted above the imaginings 110 of all that dwell on earth,” whilst Peter is recognized as one whom God has caused “the mysteries of wisdom and of utterance to flow out of his mouth.”
(The Promised Day is Come, p. 109)
Bahá'í Reference Library - The Promised Day Is Come, Pages 108-113

Among the specific superstitions that Baha’u’llah attacks is the idea that the Mahdi lives in a well and also (mysteriously) in two cities who location is unknown, and that the 11th Shiah Imam had a young son who wandered into a cave and still lives invisibly in the world. I can’t think of any specifically Catholic doctrines he dismisses as superstition. He does endorse the sonship of Jesus and the Primacy of Peter.

But superstition is universal, it’s part of the way we think. There are Bahai superstitions too: David Piff is a researcher who collects instances of them (published in Baha’i Lore) and analyses the function of oral lore and superstition. So yes, there are superstitions in the Catholic communtiy, as in any other. Baha’u’llah critiques the ways of thinking that produce supersititions; one of which is following blindly what a religious “authority” says, and another is reading the scripture for oneself, taking a verse out of context without understanding the whole message, and interpreting it “literally.” Such thinking produces superstitions like expecting the stars to literally fall to earth (which is smaller than any one of them), or, in a previous age, expecting the Messiah to literally sit on the throne of David, an expectation which justified the rejection of Christ as a false prophet.

Baha’u’llah claims a prophetic role, and delivers a prophetic denouncement of superstitions. He is not the first prophet to do this:

Isaiah 1:11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats. When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts? Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting. Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.

Religion needs that prophetic voice, it needs a Jesus to come and clean out the temple every now and again This is God’s work - it does not tear down, it renews and revitalises. Shoghi Effendi writes:

The indwelling Spirit of God which, in the Apostolic Age of the Church, animated its members, the pristine purity of its teachings, the primitive brilliancy of its light, will, no doubt, be reborn and revived as the inevitable consequences of this redefinition of its fundamental verities, and the clarification of its original purpose. For the Faith of Baha’u’llah — if we would faithfully appraise it — can never, and in no aspect of its teachings, be at variance, much less conflict, with the purpose animating, or the authority invested in, the Faith of Jesus Christ.
(The World Order of Baha’u’llah, 185)
http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/se/WOB/wob-49.html#pg185

Feel free to ask more
~ Sen McGlinn

 

[DavidMark]

Which side does the Baha’i faith take in the difference between the Truth of what Christians believe and the incorrect information in Islam that they are said to believe?

Please attend to what i have to say carefully. As I have tried to show elsewhere in this blog, the followers of all faiths have muddied their waters, and it is the task of the divine Physician to set the course straight.
I would dismiss what mullahs are teaching, since they are irrelevant as the pharisees, and turn squarely to the Voice that spoke from the Bush. Whatever He says is the intent of God. For instance, Jesus said many times, “You have heard it said, but I say unto you…”

Now, when Baha’u’llah revealed the Kitab-i-Iqan (The Book of Certitude) in two days, demonstrating His innate and untaught knowledge, He mentioned that it had become common practice for Muslims to say that the Bible was not genuine and its was corrupted. He disputed this:

"A part of them heard the Word of God, and then, after they had understood it, distorted it, and knew that they did so." [Qur’án 2:75] This verse, too, doth indicate that the meaning of the Word of God hath been perverted, not that the actual words have been effaced. To the truth of this testify they that are sound of mind.(The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 86)
Reflect: the words of the verses themselves eloquently testify to the truth that they are of God. (The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 83)

But not every one has the authority to interpret and teach. That is the prerogative of God’s Teacher.
In the serious matter of the crucifixion, Muslims have, over time, come to think soething, which, with God, has no reality. The body was crucified and lost, to expect to see the same body again is pointless. It is the dawning of the Spirit of Christ among us that we should look out for. He gave certain signs and proofs of this, but only those with spiritual sight will se them, just as it was in the case of Jesus first coming, when the Jews expected Messiah to rule, an the ‘lion to lie down with the lamb’ etc.

In the matter of Islam thinking itself to be the last community, one of the first things Baha’u’llah taught, on the first day of His declaration to those around Him in Iraq, in 1863, besides abolishing military jihad, He reminded Muslims that Islam was “an intermediate community” (Quran 2:143)
**…Ask them then as to how they interpret that which has been revealed from the kingdom of glory unto the Arabian Prophet and what do they say the meaning of “intermediate” is.
If Prophethood has been sealed with Him, how is the Prophet’s nation said to be intermediate amongst the nations? In this wise ascertain the limit of their cognizance…” **~Bahá’u’lláh, (Surih of Patience, provisional translation)

So, what comes after the Paraclete mission of Muhammad? The Presence of God again, in such great measure as to fulfil the many promises made to all how God, Who is a Spirit, can rule on earth, if not through His Representative?

Remember the parable of the land owner, Who sent revenue collectors, who were beaten up, so He sent His Son, who was killed. What happens next? He comes back Himself to establish justice. Look out!

For on that Day all men will be brought before God and will attain His Presence; which meaneth appearance before Him Who is the Tree of divine Reality and attainment unto His presence; inasmuch as it is not possible to appear before the Most Holy Essence of God, nor is it conceivable to seek reunion with Him. That which is feasible in the matter of appearance before Him and of meeting Him is attainment unto the Primal Tree.
(The Bab, SWB, p. 108)