Baha'i understanding of revelation

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ralphinal said:
Anyway, does this teach that you can just fit everything together?
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If you start with a constructive approach, trying to understand rather than tear down, it very often is possible to find harmony between apparent contradictions. Take the Quranic verse:
2:116 And they say: Allah hath taken unto Himself a son. Be He glorified! Nay, but whatsoever is in the heavens and the earth is His. All are subservient unto Him.
(The Qur’an (Pickthall tr), Sura 2 - The Cow)
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Taken on its own, it looks incompatible with Christian teaching. But what if the version of the anunciation that Muhammad is refuting here is something crude, like Helen being the daughter of Zeus and Leda?

If we look a little further in the Quran we find:
3:45 when the angels said: O Mary! Lo! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a word from him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, illustrious in the world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near (unto Allah). He will speak unto mankind in his cradle and in his manhood, and he is of the righteous. She said: My Lord! How can I have a child when no mortal hath touched me ? He said: So (it will be). Allah createth what He will. If He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is.
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and now it’s looking not so different to the Catholic idea of Sonship and the Annunciation.

Both Christian unity and the unity of religions require a constructive approach and work, and a process. It’s not a matter of waving a pollyanna wand over the whole shebang and saying “it’s all one.” Among the essential elements are, first, understanding other religions as they are, rather than as cardboard cutouts, then reappraising our own assumptions, criticising and reforming what needs to be critiqued and reformed - and handing the task on to the next generation by showing them that this is both interesting and important work.

~~ Sen McGlinn
 
The topic is “Baha’i understanding of revelation”.

Let us look at it in detail and find out the Baha’is definition of Revelation. What is Revelation?
  1. Is it some kind of message.?
  2. Is it a message from a man to a man or from the God to man?
  3. Is it a message from The God to any special man (prophet) only?
  4. Could it be a message from God to an ordinary person (man or woman) too?
  5. Could it be a message from a God to another God?
  6. Could it be just an inspiration, i.e. a thought generated in the mind of a person?
  7. Is revelation from outside or inside of a person?
  8. If Revelation is from The God to a person then how does it come?
  9. Who brings the Revelation?
  10. What is the medium for the Revelation?
The above questions are only for the Baha’i friends only. Please reply so that we know the “Baha’i understanding of revelation…”. Thanks. (Reply by numbers.)
 
DavidMark said:
Please attend to what i have to say carefully. As I have tried to show elsewhere in this blog, the followers of all faiths have muddied their waters, and it is the task of the divine Physician to set the course straight.
I would dismiss what mullahs are teaching, since they are irrelevant as the pharisees, and turn squarely to the Voice that spoke from the Bush. Whatever He says is the intent of God. For instance, Jesus said many times, “You have heard it said, but I say unto you…”

Now, when Baha’u’llah revealed the Kitab-i-Iqan (The Book of Certitude) in two days, demonstrating His innate and untaught knowledge, He mentioned that it had become common practice for Muslims to say that the Bible was not genuine and its was corrupted. He disputed this:

"A part of them heard the Word of God, and then, after they had understood it, distorted it, and knew that they did so." [Qur’án 2:75] This verse, too, doth indicate that the meaning of the Word of God hath been perverted, not that the actual words have been effaced. To the truth of this testify they that are sound of mind.(The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 86)
Reflect: the words of the verses themselves eloquently testify to the truth that they are of God. (The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 83)

But not every one has the authority to interpret and teach. That is the prerogative of God’s Teacher.
In the serious matter of the crucifixion, Muslims have, over time, come to think soething, which, with God, has no reality. The body was crucified and lost, to expect to see the same body again is pointless. It is the dawning of the Spirit of Christ among us that we should look out for. He gave certain signs and proofs of this, but only those with spiritual sight will se them, just as it was in the case of Jesus first coming, when the Jews expected Messiah to rule, an the ‘lion to lie down with the lamb’ etc.

In the matter of Islam thinking itself to be the last community, one of the first things Baha’u’llah taught, on the first day of His declaration to those around Him in Iraq, in 1863, besides abolishing military jihad, He reminded Muslims that Islam was “an intermediate community” (Quran 2:143)
**…Ask them then as to how they interpret that which has been revealed from the kingdom of glory unto the Arabian Prophet and what do they say the meaning of “intermediate” is.
If Prophethood has been sealed with Him, how is the Prophet’s nation said to be intermediate amongst the nations? In this wise ascertain the limit of their cognizance…” **~Bahá’u’lláh, (Surih of Patience, provisional translation)

So, what comes after the Paraclete mission of Muhammad? The Presence of God again, in such great measure as to fulfil the many promises made to all how God, Who is a Spirit, can rule on earth, if not through His Representative?

Remember the parable of the land owner, Who sent revenue collectors, who were beaten up, so He sent His Son, who was killed. What happens next? He comes back Himself to establish justice. Look out!

For on that Day all men will be brought before God and will attain His Presence; which meaneth appearance before Him Who is the Tree of divine Reality and attainment unto His presence; inasmuch as it is not possible to appear before the Most Holy Essence of God, nor is it conceivable to seek reunion with Him. That which is feasible in the matter of appearance before Him and of meeting Him is attainment unto the Primal Tree.
(The Bab, SWB, p. 108)
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In other words, it would not deny the crucifixion and death of Jesus but would deny the physical resurrection of Jesus?
 
Sen_McGlinn said:
If you start with a constructive approach, trying to understand rather than tear down, it very often is possible to find harmony between apparent contradictions. Take the Quranic verse:

Taken on its own, it looks incompatible with Christian teaching. But what if the version of the anunciation that Muhammad is refuting here is something crude, like Helen being the daughter of Zeus and Leda?

If we look a little further in the Quran we find:

and now it’s looking not so different to the Catholic idea of Sonship and the Annunciation.

Both Christian unity and the unity of religions require a constructive approach and work, and a process. It’s not a matter of waving a pollyanna wand over the whole shebang and saying “it’s all one.” Among the essential elements are, first, understanding other religions as they are, rather than as cardboard cutouts, then reappraising our own assumptions, criticising and reforming what needs to be critiqued and reformed - and handing the task on to the next generation by showing them that this is both interesting and important work.

~~ Sen McGlinn
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So how do you deal with the idea that Jesus was not crucified and did not die on the cross? How do you deal with the idea that the Trinity is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?
 
planten said:
The topic is “Baha’i understanding of revelation”.

Let us look at it in detail and find out the Baha’is definition of Revelation. What is Revelation?
  1. Is it some kind of message.?
  2. Is it a message from a man to a man or from the God to man?
  3. Is it a message from The God to any special man (prophet) only?
  4. Could it be a message from God to an ordinary person (man or woman) too?
  5. Could it be a message from a God to another God?
  6. Could it be just an inspiration, i.e. a thought generated in the mind of a person?
  7. Is revelation from outside or inside of a person?
  8. If Revelation is from The God to a person then how does it come?
  9. Who brings the Revelation?
  10. What is the medium for the Revelation?
The above questions are only for the Baha’i friends only. Please reply so that we know the “Baha’i understanding of revelation…”. Thanks. (Reply by numbers.)
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  1. & 2. Yes. The Message we need is what is revealed by God.
  2. The special Man is spokesman for God to all mankind
  3. God guides individuals who are sensitive, but The Message for mankind is from a Living Book, the Um’ul-Kitab (Mother Book) which is more than any regular man can imagine.
  4. When the Bab wrote to Baha’u’llah, it was from God to God, the same God.
  5. no
  6. The Sinai of Moses etc. is in His heart first, and then the world.
    8,9 & 10. The arrival of the Most Great Spirit to the designated Messenger has been symbolized in various ways, as the Dove, Gabriel, a Heavenly Maiden. The Lord of the Universe has all vision and is quite able to show what He wants to His Messenger. Praise Him!
    It has been an organic process since the appearance of Mankind. Just as individuals are gradually educated, so humanity has been gradually instructed by th Best Teacher, and this is the Day of Days.
In a sense, the Message never changes:
Worship none but God, and, with radiant hearts, lift up your faces unto your Lord, the Lord of all names. This is a Revelation to which whatever ye possess can never be compared, could ye but know it.(Baha’u’llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 48)

But in another sense, it is adapted to the age it appears in:
"In every Dispensation, the light of Divine Guidance has been focused upon one central theme… In this wondrous Revelation, this glorious century, the foundation of the Faith of God, and the distinguishing feature of His Law, is the consciousness of the oneness of mankind." ('Abdu’l-Baha, quoted in The Promised Day is Come, p. 119)

**The gift of God to this enlightened age is the knowledge of the oneness of mankind and of the fundamental oneness of religion. War shall cease between nations and by the will of God the Most Great Peace shall come; the world will be seen as a new world, and all men will live as brothers. **~‘Abdu’l-Bahá, quoted in The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 36

Were it not for this new Revelation, the world would become desolate and void. Again, Praise God for His loving providence and don’t be of those who turn aside.
 
planten said:
The topic is “Baha’i understanding of revelation”.
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If God gave a revelation, and no-one got it, would it be a revelation? I don’t think so. There are different kinds of revelation: general revelation (in creation), special revelation (through prophets and the founders of religions that Bahais call ‘Manifestations of God’), the revelation we get when we see something that should have been blindingly obvious all the time … and more. What these things have in common - the reason why we use one word for all of them - is that they have a certain effect on us. ‘Revelation’ is the word we use for what causes an epiphany.

In the Bahai writings, special revelation is described primarily in terms of the person who embodies it, rather than a message or words being transmitted. This is one of several respects in which Bahai theology is closer to Catholic theology and the Eastern Orthodox than to Islamic or Protestant theologies. The Bab for example described Man Yuzhiruhllaah (he whom God will reveal) as Kitab-e Naatiq = the Book that Speaks. (see Persian Bayan 4:10).

Baha’u’llah confirmed this:
Say: The Book of God hath been sent down in the form of this Youth. Hallowed, therefore, be God, the most excellent of makers! Take ye good heed, O peoples of the world, lest ye flee from His face. Nay, make haste to attain His presence, and be of them that have returned unto Him.
(Gleanings, 104-105; reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-52.html)
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In a prayer Baha’u’llah revealed for the night on which the Bab was born (see Ayyam-e Tis`eh pp 12-15), Baha’u’llah says:
“O night of the All-Bounteous! We see in thee the Mother Book. Is this a Person born, or is it a Book? Nay, by Myself! All such things pertain to the station of names and God hath sanctified Him above all names.
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And in the Kitab-e Aqdas:
“Take heed lest ye be prevented by aught that hath been recorded in the
Book from hearkening unto this, the Living Book, Who proclaimeth the truth: “Verily, there is no God but Me, the Most Excellent, the all-Praised.””
reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KA/ka-8.html#pg87
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Another verse showing that primacy of the Person over the verses revealed is this:
Say, I swear by God! In this Revelation even before a single verse was sent down from the realm of holiness and sublimity, the supreme testimony of God had been fulfilled for all the inmates of heaven and the dwellers on earth… (Tablets of Baha’u’llah, 182; reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/TB/tb-13.html#pg182)
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On the relationship between the Person who embodies revelation and the words revealed and (usually) written down, Bah’u’llh says that "The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed … " (Gleanings p. 105)

So the text itself is a 3rd-order revelation. We can check and correct our understanding of the text against the Revelation and Person of the Manifestation. Of course the larger part of our knowledge of the Manifestation comes through His writing, but by no means all. Leaving aside the instances in which biographical information can indicate how a passage should be read, there is an important subjective difference between checking one’s reading of a passage against one’s overall understanding of the writings , and checking it against one’s picture of Bah’u’llah’s life, mind, concerns and personality, built up from a reading of the writings as a whole. Both are good. Asking whether my reading of passage A is consonant with another passage begins a reasoning process that may include close reading techniques, textual criticism, logical analysis, historical criticism etc etc. The biographical approach on the other hand is to call to mind the whole picture I have of the person of Baha’u’llah, take my little interpretation in my hand, and ask “Do you like it?”.

In another passage, Baha’u’llah writes:
"“Write: 'Hast thou not heard that My proof is My Essence, My evidence My person, and My argument My Manifestation? While that which hath proceeded from My pen is a path leading unto My recognition …”
reference.bahai.org/fa/t/b/MAS4/mas4-92.html
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The text is about the proofs of having received (or being) a revelation (about the ‘Miracle of Proof’ in Islamic theological terms). However it also tells us quite a lot about the nature of revelation. The simple fact that different revelations can have different proofs (Moses’ white hand, the resurrection, the revelation of the Quran, speed of revelation (for the Bab), the Person of the Manifestation, and something possibly different for the next Manifestation), tells us that the proofs are not the Revelation, but rather signs pointing to the revelation, which is itself ineffable. If it was effable, every tom dick and harry would already have effed it 🙂 and it wouldn’t be a revelation to us.

~~ Sen McGlinn
 
ralphinal said:
So how do you deal with the idea that Jesus was not crucified and did not die on the cross? How do you deal with the idea that the Trinity is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?
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The idea that Jesus did not die on the cross is a matter of interpretation, of Quran 4:157. Most but not all Muslim theologians have understood this to mean that Jesus did not die, or was not on the cross at all, but others say that the verse means that they imagined that they had killed “Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah” - that is, they imagined they had defeated God. But they had not, what occurred, occurred not because of them, but because it was God’s will that Jesus should be crucified and rise again.

Bahais do believe that Jesus was crucified and that that sacrifice had a salvific effect:
Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence 86 exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.
(Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, 85; reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-36.html)
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On the Trinity, Abdu’l-Baha says:
the Reality of Christ was a clear mirror, and the Sun of Reality… became visible in the mirror. The meaning is not that the Sun, which is the Essence of the Divinity, became divided and multiplied – for the Sun is one – but it appeared in the mirror. This is why Christ said, “The Father is in the Son,” meaning that the Sun is visible and manifest in this mirror.
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The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God which becomes visible and evident in the Reality of Christ. …
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This is the signification of the Three Persons of the Trinity. If it were otherwise, the foundations of the Religion of God would rest upon an illogical proposition which the mind could never conceive, and how can the mind be forced to believe a thing which it cannot conceive? A thing cannot be grasped by the intelligence except when it is clothed in an intelligible form; otherwise, it is but an effort of the imagination.
(Some Answered Questions, p. 114, reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/SAQ/saq-27.html)
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The whole chapter is worth reading. Note that it begins by saying that “The Divine Reality …is exempt from all conception” and then goes on to give a comprehensible picture of the Trinity, as if to say, you can’t really understand, but this is a good approximation.

Islamic theologians have rejected every formulation of the trinity. The Quran says, for example:
O ye people of the Book! do not exceed in your religion, nor say against God aught save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, is but the apostle of God and His Word, which He cast into Mary and a spirit from Him; believe then in God and His apostles, and say not ‘Three.’
(Sura 4 - Women)
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Which sounds pretty definite. But bear in mind that there were many different formulations of the trinity, and we do not know (or at least, I do not), what formulation it was the Muhammad had encountered among the Christians of Arabia or Syria. Perhaps the formulation he condemns, is one that was also rejected or condemned by church councils.
 
ByzCath said:
But Moses and Muhammad did not claim to be Christ either and your faith says that they are prophets.
Again, it seems that you pick and choose what you want.
But you seem to deny us that same right. God has spoken and revelation is closed according to Catholic Teaching. The Catholic Church is the Church of Christ so you can not claim him as a prophet (He was much more than just that, after all He claimed to be God and we recognize Him as such) and deny His Teachings.
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Dear David, But Moses was the Voice of God to Pharaoh (Exodus 7:1) And whoever obeyed Him or Jesus or Muhammad obeyed God. Is this a bitter pill to swallow?

We refer to the Great Prophets as Divine Manifestations; lesser prophets like those of the House of Israel promoted the Mosaic Revelation. The greatest of those was Isaiah and John the Baptist. Baha’u’llah verifies that Isaiah foresaw the Divine Manifestations of the future, including Himself, the “Everlasting Father”, a title which shouldn’t be confused with the Godhead, but refers to the appearance of the Lord of the Vineyard, the Lord of Hosts, the King of Glory, the Comforter, the Shepherd who gathers all mankind, the Father of 'Abdu’l-Baha, the Center of His Covenant with Mankind. Revelation is not finished…nor ever will be.

"‘The hand of God,’ say the Jews, ‘is chained up.’ Chained up be their own hands! And for that which they have said, they were accursed. Nay, outstretched are both His hands!"[Qur’án 5:64] “The hand of God is above their hands.” [Qur’án 48:10.]
(Baha’u’llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 135)

** He that obeys the Apostle obeys Allah Himself. **(Qur’án 4:80)
You are the one who picks and chooses.
How do you imagine that revelation is closed? Two Prophets were promised in the Book of Revelation chapter 11 alone; and when Christ comes back do you think He will have nothing to reveal, when He promised to tell us those things ‘we could not bear’?
Isn’t He the Spirit of Truth Who comes with a new name? (Rev. 2:17, 3:12)

The term ‘prophet’ is used in the Gospel, as one of the services one can perform…Ephesians 4:11 ** And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:**

But who can decide to do that? Isn’t God the one who appoints a true prophet? How do the Twelve Mormon leaders elect their prophet? Does he have visions after elected? I don’t think so. It is administrative. That was not the case with Mírza Husayn 'Alí, the Persian nobleman, who had not gone to school, and was visited by a brilliant celestial Hourí, or Maiden of Heaven, either asleep or awake, while in the dungeon of Tihran.
You accept the Apparitions on Sinai and in the River Jordan but not in Hijaz or Tihran.

Deny one Messenger, and you have denied all.
We did not pick and choose, except to follow God’s promised One, when He called us and thereby obtain forgiveness of everything and avoid hell-fire. It is always the same… salvation in some manner. But this time it is not just animals in an ark, or the 12 tribes, or individuals (Jew or Gentiles), but Life itself on this planet. There is no other refuge.
It is only by grace that we are blessed with belief. i am no better than anyone; and i don’t know why i was favored; but i’m very glad i was. The sheep know the Shepherd.

Say: O ye who are as dead! The Hand of Divine bounty proffereth unto you the Water of Life. Hasten and drink your fill. Whoso hath been re-born in this Day, shall never die; whoso remaineth dead, shall never live.(Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 213)
 
DavidMark said:
Dear David, But Moses was the Voice of God to Pharaoh (Exodus 7:1) And whoever obeyed Him or Jesus or Muhammad obeyed God. Is this a bitter pill to swallow?
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No it is not. Moses was the voice of God. Jesus is God. As for Muhammad, I do not believe that he is a prophet at all.

Is that a bitter pill to swallow?
 
ByzCath said:
No it is not. Moses was the voice of God. Jesus is God. As for Muhammad, I do not believe that he is a prophet at all.

Is that a bitter pill to swallow?
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No, but it will be for you.

It is evident that whoso hath failed to acknowledge the truth of the Qur’án hath in reality failed to acknowledge the truth of the preceding Scriptures. (Baha’u’llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 204)

You shouldn’t deny that Muhammad was an Educator who raised his people from polytheisitic barbarity to a better level. So much so that Gerbert went to a Muslim University in Spain before becoming Pope. Remember, the seed of Abraham was to bless the earth, and that includes Ishmael, the Imams of the line of Hashim, and the Blessed Báb, whose Shrine is a Lighthouse for the spiritually alive.

Being a Baha’i on this blog is a challenge: defending three Prophets after Christ, when the Catholics tow the line of their Popes and deny Him one time, twice, thrice…
No one can content with truth, although they might think they can.

**O ye leaders of religion! Who is the man amongst you that can rival Me in vision or insight? Where is he to be found that dareth to claim to be My equal in utterance or wisdom?
No, by My Lord, the All-Merciful! All on the earth shall pass away; and this is the face of your Lord, the Almighty, the Well-Beloved. **(Baha’u’llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 56)
 
DavidMark said:
No, but it will be for you.
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A bit arrogant of you.
It is evident that whoso hath failed to acknowledge the truth of the Qur’án hath in reality failed to acknowledge the truth of the preceding Scriptures. (Baha’u’llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 204)
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Quoting texts that I do not recognize as inspired do not help make your point to me.

I wonder why you seem to not understand this?
You shouldn’t deny that Muhammad was an Educator who raised his people from polytheisitic barbarity to a better level. So much so that Gerbert went to a Muslim University in Spain before becoming Pope. Remember, the seed of Abraham was to bless the earth, and that includes Ishmael, the Imams of the line of Hashim, and the Blessed Báb, whose Shrine is a Lighthouse for the spiritually alive.
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I do not deny that Muhammad was an educator who may have helped his people, I do deny that he had a message from God or that he was a prophet.

Just as muslims deny that Jesus is God.
Being a Baha’i on this blog is a challenge: defending three Prophets after Christ, when the Catholics tow the line of their Popes and deny Him one time, twice, thrice…
No one can content with truth, although they might think they can.
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Now you are just being offensive.

I now see there is no discussing this with you as you have refused to answer my questions.
 
ByzCath said:
So your prophet makes claims to be the authority and the authority that my religion claims is nothing more than “priest-prompted superstitions”?
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David, i’m sorry but what you just asked is probably exactly what the Pharisees said.
i’m sorry if i sounded arrogant, but i don’t like to hear Prophet Muhammad denigrated, and i have an angelic Message. And i am impatient by nature.
The Proclamation of Baha’u’'llah which Sen and i quote from is stentorian and stupendous! Baha’u’llah is saying He is the Holy One of Israel, the Lord of mankind, and that this is His planet. He could appropriate anything He wanted for His purposes. But, He doesn’t want the kingdoms and countries, He is meek and yearned for God’s ancient purposes to be fulfilled. And God informed Him they would be fulfilled through Him! He was not a deranged person; He operated under stress we cannot imagine.
He wants the hearts (including those of the kings and leaders). He’s got mine unto death.

i want to try to answer you the best i can, which is to try to find the best quotations, which say it better than i can…but since you do not accept their authority, there is no point in continuing. A catch-22 ? If you’re willing to phrase more questions, i’ll try to be good. 🙂

Now, the initial question concerned Joseph Smith, and that has been answered.
NoWings wonders what we mean by the term “seer.” It no way approaches a divine Manifestation; but many poets and thinkers of the 19th century felt a millenial zeal, including Julia Ward Howe, who wrote the Battle Hymn of the Republic.
I heard that one line originaly was “mine eyes have seen the coming of the Glory of the Lord” (which means Baha’u’llah to us) but afterward she thought, how can this be, and changed it to the “glory of the coming fo the Lord.” There are many other songs and poems like this.
Joseph Smith was one of the more elaborate, but still not a Manifestation.
Another church that began at that time was the Seventh Day Adventists (SDA)
William Miller and others expected the prophecy in Daniel 8:13-14 about the 2300 “days” to be fulfilled in 1844, which is when the Babi-Bahai calendar began. The Shí’ih also were looking toward their year 1260, which was 1844. Do you see how this could be a point of unity between Christianity and Islam, or are you not a seer?:rolleyes:

Are Catholics even interested in the numerical prophecies that point to Christ?
If they are, then they should be interested in the others as well.
 
Roll on the floor laughing huh?
Are you someone I should ignore henceforth?
You can laugh it to scorn if you like, but thousands of my fellow believers have died fiendishly cruel deaths for it, so if this thread is about the Baha’i understanding of Revelation, please show some respect.

It is established that Baha’is accept the Virgin Birth, the sanctity of Mary and the Primacy of Peter. Now, Progressive Revelation is God’s plan. You may not accept this or that Prophet, but you have already accepted the general idea. This is the Baha’i idea you wanted to know about. If you really don’t, then why are we here?

Take for instance the emphasis Catholics put on Christ as God, not just the Son.
Baha’is consider Him the ‘Son’, but not because He was born of a Virgin with no human father. Adam had no human parents, right? It is because of the perfections that Jesus possessed, thru the confirmations of the Holy Spirit. The Qur’an confirms this too.

2:87 And verily We gave unto Moses the Scripture and We caused a train of messengers to follow after him, and We gave unto Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs (of Allah’s sovereignty), and We supported him with the Holy spirit. Is it ever so, that, when there cometh unto you a messenger (from Allah) with that which ye yourselves desire not, ye grow arrogant, and some ye disbelieve and some ye slay?

The emphasis in Islam was that Yahveh/God/Allah is transcendent above imagination. We can use the term ‘Son’ but we have to realize it is relative in relation to the Absolute, Who does not beget as we beget. Baha’is use the term ‘Everlasting Father’ as Isaiah intended to refer to the Holy One of Israel who would come after the Messiah, namely the return of Christ in the ‘Glory of the Father’ --but it is a relative to what has gone before.

All are created by God, including the Divine Manifestation, which is a pre-existent Entity, the Logos, or the Sophia/Wisdom of Proverbs, the Shekina, Arkangel Michael, people try to connect lots of terms to this Reality that does exist, but is greater than us, and beyond our understanding. No matter what you say, all these Prophets are servants of God.
We also go further, and show that they are reflections, as in perfect mirrors, polished by God to teach the rest of mankind.

They have different names and stations, different emphasis, or themes in each age, different languages, laws, and cultures… but they are all God’s. There will not be unity within a family or a church, let alone all the churches, faiths and nations, without the Will of the divine Unifier, and before we knew enough to ask, He has appeared among us and left again! We must teach the Afghani children to live with the world and not hate it etc.

‘During these six thousand years there has been constant war, strife, bloodshed.
We can see at a glance the results. Have we not a sufficient standard of experience in this direction? Let us now try peace for a while. If good results follow, let us adhere to it.
If not let us throw it away and fight again. Nothing will be lost by the experiment.’
(Marzieh Gail, quoting 'Abdu’l-Baha in Dawn Over Mount Hira, p. 189)

I charge you all that each one of you concentrate all the thoughts of your heart on love and unity. When a thought of war comes, oppose it by a stronger thought of peace.
A thought of hatred must be destroyed by a more powerful thought of love.
Thoughts of war bring destruction to all harmony, well-being, restfulness and content.
(Abdu’l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 29)
 
DavidMark said:
Roll on the floor laughing huh?
Are you someone I should ignore henceforth?
You can laugh it to scorn if you like, but thousands of my fellow believers have died fiendishly cruel deaths for it, so if this thread is about the Baha’i understanding of Revelation, please show some respect.

It is established that Baha’is accept the Virgin Birth, the sanctity of Mary and the Primacy of Peter. Now, Progressive Revelation is God’s plan. You may not accept this or that Prophet, but you have already accepted the general idea. This is the Baha’i idea you wanted to know about. If you really don’t, then why are we here?

Take for instance the emphasis Catholics put on Christ as God, not just the Son.
Baha’is consider Him the ‘Son’, but not because He was born of a Virgin with no human father. Adam had no human parents, right? It is because of the perfections that Jesus possessed, thru the confirmations of the Holy Spirit. The Qur’an confirms this too.

2:87 And verily We gave unto Moses the Scripture and We caused a train of messengers to follow after him, and We gave unto Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs (of Allah’s sovereignty), and We supported him with the Holy spirit. Is it ever so, that, when there cometh unto you a messenger (from Allah) with that which ye yourselves desire not, ye grow arrogant, and some ye disbelieve and some ye slay?

The emphasis in Islam was that Yahveh/God/Allah is transcendent above imagination. We can use the term ‘Son’ but we have to realize it is relative in relation to the Absolute, Who does not beget as we beget. Baha’is use the term ‘Everlasting Father’ as Isaiah intended to refer to the Holy One of Israel who would come after the Messiah, namely the return of Christ in the ‘Glory of the Father’ --but it is a relative to what has gone before.

All are created by God, including the Divine Manifestation, which is a pre-existent Entity, the Logos, or the Sophia/Wisdom of Proverbs, the Shekina, Arkangel Michael, people try to connect lots of terms to this Reality that does exist, but is greater than us, and beyond our understanding. No matter what you say, all these Prophets are servants of God.
We also go further, and show that they are reflections, as in perfect mirrors, polished by God to teach the rest of mankind.

They have different names and stations, different emphasis, or themes in each age, different languages, laws, and cultures… but they are all God’s. There will not be unity within a family or a church, let alone all the churches, faiths and nations, without the Will of the divine Unifier, and before we knew enough to ask, He has appeared among us and left again! We must teach the Afghani children to live with the world and not hate it etc.

‘During these six thousand years there has been constant war, strife, bloodshed.
We can see at a glance the results. Have we not a sufficient standard of experience in this direction? Let us now try peace for a while. If good results follow, let us adhere to it.
If not let us throw it away and fight again. Nothing will be lost by the experiment.’
(Marzieh Gail, quoting 'Abdu’l-Baha in Dawn Over Mount Hira, p. 189)

I charge you all that each one of you concentrate all the thoughts of your heart on love and unity. When a thought of war comes, oppose it by a stronger thought of peace.
A thought of hatred must be destroyed by a more powerful thought of love.
Thoughts of war bring destruction to all harmony, well-being, restfulness and content.
(Abdu’l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 29)
Click to expand...
I see you subscribe to double-think. Most interesting.
 
Blessed is he whom His Call hath attracted to the summit of glory, who hath drawn nigh to the ultimate Purpose, and who hath recognized through the shrill voice of My Pen of Glory that which the Lord of this world and of the next hath willed. Whoso faileth to quaff the choice wine which We have unsealed through the potency of Our Name, the All-Compelling, shall be unable to discern the splendours of the light of divine unity or to grasp the essential purpose underlying the Scriptures of God, the Lord of heaven and earth, the sovereign Ruler of this world and of the world to come. Such a man shall be accounted among the faithless in the Book of God, the All-Knowing, the All-Informed.(Tablets of Baha’u’llah, p. 105)
 
Eucharisted said:
I see you subscribe to double-think. Most interesting.
Click to expand...
Elaborate if you will, so we can keep making progress. Are you saying i’m bi-polar or something? If you mean that we can return to war if peace doesn’t work, I’m sure you can see the humor here. Peace was promised, so it has to work, but not with our methods, only God’s. Planetary cessation of war, as well as inner glow…(reading your conversion story Nicholas)

My story: worldpeach.blogspot.com/
 
"Baha’i is self-contradicting; it says it dose not have the last prophet, yet claims to be the last word - the final judgment - on all religious matter, as if it holds such authority as to say what is and what isn’t. It is this hidden poison which few within Baha’i understand. "

Each one of the Prophets, including Jesus, had authority to say what is or isn’t…and you call that poison. We announce a new Revelation which you reject. To me that is poison.
Like Mickey, just call us a cult, and withdraw into a little shell. If we bothered to define a cult, we’d see who is really a cult.
 
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