Baha'i understanding of revelation

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

David, i’m sorry but what you just asked is probably exactly what the Pharisees said.
i’m sorry if i sounded arrogant, but i don’t like to hear Prophet Muhammad denigrated, and i have an angelic Message. And i am impatient by nature.

Your not sorry, if you were you would not have said this.

So when someone disagrees with you and asks question, which you refuse to answer, they are just like the Pharisees?

I have done a bit more research.

Baha’i denies the Trinity, they deny that Jesus is God, they call Jesus a “manifestation” of God, of which there are many. This goes against Christanity.

Thank you for your time but you have not done much to answer my questions.

I had hoped to gain some understand of the Baha’i faith, all I have gained is the understanding that those who represent Baha’i faith here have no wish to understand the religion of others and only wish to present themselves and Baha’i as the ultimate authority. Which is not a bad thing as Catholicism contains the fullness of the Truth but what is a bad thing is the refusal to acknowledge that this is a Catholic Forum and the refusal to attempt to understand what we believe.

Thank you for your time but it is time to move on.

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

After you have read that, send me a message, otherwise I’m done with people thinking this is a joke.

But I’m still here, for the next couple of weeks, happy to help anyone with questions or who wants to bounce ideas about the Bahai Faith around.

 

[Usbek_de_Perse]

In a thread on the Scripture forum about the meaning of 666 in the Bible there is a poster of the Baha’i faith.

He seems to have an issue with the Catholic Teaching that there will be no further public revelation following that of Jesus.

He states.

I am wondering why Joseph Smith and Moromism is left out of this list.

I am a former Baha’i of over 30 years, so I think I can answer this. The Baha’i Faith teaches that revelation is progressive, and that from time to time, God sends “Manifestations” or “educators” to advance humankind as humankind becomes progressively capable to understand more subtle spiritual realities. The example commonly cited is that Moses brought the law, and Jesus brought a greater understanding of that law. Baha’is believe that Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab (precursor of Baha’u’llah, somewhat analogous to John the Baptist) and Baha’u’llah the founder of the Baha’i Faith are Manifestations of God (in Arabic rasulu’l-lah).

The problem is that the teachings of Jesus have never been equaled, let alone surpassed. The moral provisions of the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew are such that no religion past or future can rival. Jesus forbad divorce, but both Islam and the Baha’i faith provide regular procedures for it.

There are teachings in the Baha’i Faith that there will be no further revelation for 1000 years. Hence Joseph Smith is not covered. However, there was a Baha’i named Kenneth Stephens, who converted from Mormonism to the Baha’i Faith, who wrote a book called “So Great a Cause”, in which he finds prophecies of Baha’u’llah in the Book of Mormon. I remember talking to other former Mormon Baha’is who didn’t think much of his arguments.

The problem with naming Jesus and Muhammad in the same group is that Jesus and his disciples taught a distinctly trinitarian God, and this is clear from both the NT and from writings just after the NT period. For Baha’is, Manifestations are like mirrors who, though not being God, show mankind as much of God as is possible for mankind to know.

This is contrary to the teachings in the New Testament, such as Phillipians 2: “5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.”

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I am a former Baha’i of over 30 years, so I think I can answer this. The Baha’i Faith teaches that revelation is progressive, and that from time to time, God sends “Manifestations” or “educators” to advance humankind as humankind becomes progressively capable to understand more subtle spiritual realities. The example commonly cited is that Moses brought the law, and Jesus brought a greater understanding of that law. Baha’is believe that Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab (precursor of Baha’u’llah, somewhat analogous to John the Baptist) and Baha’u’llah the founder of the Baha’i Faith are Manifestations of God (in Arabic rasulu’l-lah).

The problem is that the teachings of Jesus have never been equaled, let alone surpassed. The moral provisions of the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew are such that no religion past or future can rival. Jesus forbad divorce, but both Islam and the Baha’i faith provide regular procedures for it.

There are teachings in the Baha’i Faith that there will be no further revelation for 1000 years. Hence Joseph Smith is not covered. However, there was a Baha’i named Kenneth Stephens, who converted from Mormonism to the Baha’i Faith, who wrote a book called “So Great a Cause”, in which he finds prophecies of Baha’u’llah in the Book of Mormon. I remember talking to other former Mormon Baha’is who didn’t think much of his arguments.

The problem with naming Jesus and Muhammad in the same group is that Jesus and his disciples taught a distinctly trinitarian God, and this is clear from both the NT and from writings just after the NT period. For Baha’is, Manifestations are like mirrors who, though not being God, show mankind as much of God as is possible for mankind to know.

This is contrary to the teachings in the New Testament, such as Phillipians 2: “5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.”

Thank you so much for this.

Now I understand why there is such an issue with the Catholic Teaching that there will be no further public revelation. That no revelation can superceed or correct that which Christ has given. As I read what you wrote, Baha’i claims just such a revelation.

 

[Usbek_de_Perse]

Thank you so much for this.

Now I understand why there is such an issue with the Catholic Teaching that there will be no further public revelation. That no revelation can superceed or correct that which Christ has given. As I read what you wrote, Baha’i claims just such a revelation.

Hello Brother David,

One further point: Baha’is believe that Baha’u’llah is the promised one for all religions, thus he is the Lord of Hosts for the Jews (as distinct from the Messiah who was Jesus), the Return of Christ for the Christians, the Qa’im for Shi’i Muslims, the Mahdi for Sunni Muslims, the Buddha Maitriya Amitabha for the Buddhists, etc.

Of course this is an issue with all Christians, not just Catholics. It is similarly an issue for Muslims who believe that Muhammad is the Seal of the Prophets, and Jews who have yet to accept Jesus as the Messiah.

On the non-Abrahamic side there are problems as well. Buddha did not teach the existence of God, yet Baha’is call him a “Manifestation of God”. I recall a Baha’i who went to great pains to show that Buddha did teach a God, but no serious Buddhist would take it seriously. Similarly, Zoroastrians teach a kind of duality between Good and Evil, and Jews, Christians, Muslims and also Baha’is teach that God is supreme. Baha’is actually teach the non-existence of evil, that evil is simply turning away from the light. So for Baha’is to reconcile their religion with the religions of the past, they must jump through many hoops.

Having said all that, I know Baha’is to be morally straight, sincere, and upright people. They take their religion seriously, and they show respect to other religions.

I think most people become Baha’is at a time when they have stepped back from their own religion, whatever that is, and are questioning. They are thus not that ready to question the various inconsistencies that exist. Baha’is can pull up any number of Bible verses to illustrate the rightness of their teachings, but these usually do not convince sincere Christians. That said, I have known of several Catholic priests and nuns who have become Baha’is, as well as more than a few Protestant ministers.

 

[DavidMark]

Thank you Usbek, for coming out of retirement from the Baha’i faith to define it.
Since today is Baha’u’llah’s Birthday, and I am not at work, I will help you to do it.
I find it strange that people do not go to the source for things.
Reading Baha’u’llah’s Writings helps to understand what He meant to convey.
There is no question we believe there will never be an end to divine revelation; and it is not a matter of us bringing our faith down to fit into previous ones, but rather the Call of God for all to gather, whoever they might be.
Concerning Buddha: If it is God’s intent not to speak of Himself, it would seem appropriate to me, since he expects the same of us sometimes! Remember the gods-soaked environment Buddha came to. He stressed other things for that people at that time, and promised the Maitreya would come, who would speak about God again!

**Say: This is a Revelation around which every proof and testimony doth circle. Thus hath it been sent down by your Lord, the God of Mercy, if ye be of them that judge aright. **(Bahá’u’lláh, KA, p. 68)
This is a Revelation to which whatever ye possess can never be compared, could ye but know it. (Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 210)
**This is a Revelation that infuseth strength into the feeble, and crowneth with wealth the destitute. **(Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 183)
Say: There is no place of refuge for you, no asylum to which ye can flee, no one to defend or to protect you in this Day from the fury of the wrath of God and from His vehement power, unless and until ye seek the shadow of His Revelation. This, indeed, is His Revelation which hath been manifested unto you in the person of this Youth. Glorified, then, be God for so effulgent, so precious, so wondrous a vision. (Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 257)

 

[Usbek_de_Perse]

Thank you Usbek, for coming out of retirement from the Baha’i faith to define it.
Since today is Baha’u’llah’s Birthday, and I am not at work, I will help you to do it.
I find it strange that people do not go to the source for things.

DavidMark, I certainly meant no offense. I simply offered up some issues that one must confront when attempting to understand the Baha’i teachings on progressive revelation. As to the quotations of Baha’u’llah cited, I will not quibble with them. In my letter of disassociation to National, I said, “Who is Baha’u’llah? I do not know. Was he a fraud? I don’t think so”. And so, there I must leave it. Ambiguity is my best answer for now.

By the way, what do you think of the Maid of Heaven? Is that image not strangely Marian? I always thought so, though I never expressed that, even as a Baha’i.

 

[DavidMark]

I respect your right to pick and choose.
It might be interesting to pursue it with others who know more about Mariology.
Maid of Heaven was one of the Hourís, described as feminine to symbolize the hidden meanings of the Word, which, when embraced, gives great spiritual pleasure to the soul.

**O Maid of inner meanings! Step out of the chamber of utterance by the leave of God, the Lord of the heavens and the earth. Reveal, then, thyself adorned with the raiment of the celestial Realm, and proffer with thy ruby fingers the wine of the heavenly Dominion, that haply the denizens of this world may perceive the light that shone forth from the Kingdom of God when the Daystar of eternity appeared above the horizon of glory.

Perchance they may arise before the dwellers of earth and heaven to extol and magnify this Youth Who hath established Himself in the midmost heart of Paradise upon the throne of His name, the All-Sufficing Helper – He from Whose countenance shineth the brightness of the All-Merciful, from Whose gaze appear the glances of the All-Glorious, and in Whose ways are revealed the tokens and evidences of God, the omnipotent Protector, the Almighty, the All-Loving… **(Bahá’u’lláh, Suriy-i-Haykal #1.22, The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 12)

 

[DavidMark]

Moses
Jesus
Muhammad
The Báb & Bahá’u’lláh

I am wondering why Joseph Smith and Moromism is left out of this list.

I don’t think Smith was of the Semetic line from Abraham.
This is an especial blessing that from among the descendants of Abraham should have come all the Prophets of the children of Israel. This is a blessing that God has granted to this descent: to Moses from His father and mother, to Christ from His mother’s line; also to Muhammad and the Báb, and to all the Prophets and the Holy Manifestations of Israel.(Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 213)

**The Blessed Beauty **[Bahá’u’lláh] is also a lineal descendant of Abraham, for Abraham had other sons besides Ishmael and Isaac who in those days migrated to the lands of Persia and Afghanistan, and the Blessed Beauty is one of their descendants.(Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 213)

He derived His descent, on the one hand, from Abraham (the Father of the Faithful) through his wife Katurah, and on the other from Zoroaster, as well as from Yazdigird, the last king of the Sasaniyan dynasty. He was moreover a descendant of Jesse*****, and belonged, through His father, Mirza Abbas, better known as Mirza Buzurg – a nobleman closely associated with the ministerial circles of the Court of Fath-'Ali Shah – to one of the most ancient and renowned families of Mazindaran. (Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, p. 94) (*****Sasan was the son of Cyrus the Great and Rahab bint Pinchas, who was a Jewess descended from Rehoboam, ben Solomon, ben David, ben Jesse.)

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

By the way, what do you think of the Maid of Heaven? Is that image not strangely Marian? I always thought so, though I never expressed that, even as a Baha’i.

You should have expressed it, it’s a good insight. The Maid of heaven whom Baha’u’llah describes:

I beheld a Maiden - the embodiment of the remembrance of My Lord - suspended in the air before Me. So rejoiced was she in her very soul that her countenance shone with the ornament of the good-pleasure of God, and her cheeks glowed with the brightness of the All-Merciful. Betwixt earth and heaven she was raising a call which captivated the hearts and minds of men. She was imparting to both my inward and outward being tidings which rejoiced my soul, and the souls of God’s honored servants. Pointing with her finger unto My head, she addressed all who are in heaven and all who are on earth, saying "By God! This is the Best-Beloved of the worlds, and yet ye comprehend not, and the power of His sovereignty within you, could ye but understand. This is the Mystery of God and His Treasure, the Cause of God and His glory unto all who are in the kingdoms of Revelation and creation, if ye be of them that perceive. [Surih of the Temple, official translation by Shoghi Effendi]

is sometimes interpreted as the Law of God, because the Law is symbolised by Jerusalem:

O ye children of His Kingdom! Verily, verily, the new heaven and the new earth are come. The holy City, new Jerusalem, hath come down from on high in the form of a maid of heaven, veiled, beauteous, and unique, and prepared for reunion with her lovers on earth.
(Abdu’l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu’l-Baha, p. 12)

or the Holy Spirit (from the Father AND the Son apparently )

I am the Maid of Heaven, the Offspring begotten by the Spirit of Baha. My habitation is the Mansion of His Name, the All-Glorious. Before the Concourse on high I was adorned with the ornament of His names.
(Baha’u’llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 283)

But my favourite is that she represents the church, the mashriqu’l-adhkar, because both the Maid and the Mashriq are embodiments of remembrance of God (= dhikr, plural adhkar, = worship)

There’s a very brief article on the Maid of Heaven at
angelfire.com/ca3/bigquestions/houri.html
with links to the Maiden tablets at the bottom. Kamran Ekbal wrote an article on "Daena-Den-Din: The Zoroastrian heritage of the ‘Maid of Heaven.’ published in Scripture and Revelation (ed. Moojan Momen), Baha’i Studies Vol III, (George Ronald publ.). And there’s Terry Culhane’s book, I beheld a Maiden . . .The Baha’i Faith and the Life of the Spirit, available from Kalimat books.

The Maid has archtypes in the Quranic houris, but more strongly in a maiden figure in Zoroastrianism, who is said to come to meet the soul of the departed, halfway to heaven, and unveil herself as either a beautiful maid or an ugly crone - depending on the deeds of the departed during his/her life. Like the picture of Dorian Grey.

But Baha’u’llah’s Maid of Heaven is a more exalted symbol than either the houris or the Zoroastrian soul-image. Marian parallels can certainly be drawn.

 

[Mickey]

Thank you for your time but you have not done much to answer my questions.

And your questions will not be answered–because they cannot answer them. You will receive very long dissertations talking around your inquiries, but never directly answering them.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

And your questions will not be answered–because they cannot answer them. You will receive very long dissertations talking around your inquiries, but never directly answering them.

Yes but the answers they are providing, the non-answers, tells me a lot about them and their faith.

Usbek de Perse, the former Baha’i believer, has provided the answers I was looking for.

 

[Mickey]

Yes but the answers they are providing, the non-answers, tells me a lot about them and their faith.

Usbek de Perse, the former Baha’i believer, has provided the answers I was looking for.

Indeed!

 

[Usbek_de_Perse]

Yes but the answers they are providing, the non-answers, tells me a lot about them and their faith.

Usbek de Perse, the former Baha’i believer, has provided the answers I was looking for.

Thank you, Brother David.

I thought I might make a further observation. Several Baha’is who post on CAF are in the habit of cutting and pasting from Baha’i writings. Baha’is, like Christians and Muslims, have a strong belief in the spiritual power of their sacred texts. Stories of early believers talk about people who have the ability to recognize the divine origin of Baha’u’llah or the Bab based on reading a few lines of their writing.

Baha’i texts in English are masterfully translated. I have studied the Arabic, so I have some appreciation. The great-grandson of Baha’u’llah, Shoghi Rabbani, called Shoghi Effendi, studied at the Syrian Protestant College, later the American University of Beirut. He went on for several years at Balliol College in Oxford. His English was quite good. He wrote with excellent diction. He also translated much of what has been translated into English. He was assisted by a priest in the Church of Ireland, Archdeacon George Townsend. Townsend was an Anglo-Irish, but he came to America and obtained his B.D. from the University of the South, in Sewanee, Tennessee, one of the oldest Episcopal divinity schools. He was ordained in Utah, of all places, and eventually wound up back in Ireland. He assisted Shoghi Effendi by rendering draft translations into excellent King James–Book of Common Prayer language. He also wrote several books concerning the Baha’i faith and Christianity. Townsend eventually left the Church and became a Baha’i. He died in the 1950s.

 

[DavidMark]

Ok dear friends, you can tell i’m zealous, and want to share too much, perhaps.
But i challenge you to phrase concise questions, and you’ll get concise answers.
Even you Mickey, come on now!
But i feel like you don’t think valid answers are really possible, since you (like Jews and Muslims) don’t think there can be any “public” Revelation from God to mankind anymore; and you don’t want to study texts that you don’t accept the authority for, and you all seem to be basically uninterested, critical, sceptical. And I haven’t even got to the best part yet!Please prove me wrong.

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

Like DavidMark said: clear questions, clear answers. I tried searching back up the thread to find what these unanswered questions were, but I couldn’t find them.

 

[DavidMark]

Like DavidMark said: clear questions, clear answers. I tried searching back up the thread to find what these unanswered questions were, but I couldn’t find them.

You’re right Sen, they just want to hear the same comforting things. Jesus is God and Mary is the Mother of God. But the Comforter is other than they think.
I struggle with trying to inform people who are not interested. It all begins and ends with words, and you know how He felt about that. Are we proffering a cup when there is no thirsty seeker? We should be careful where we throw our ‘pearls.’
You can give the clearest exposition and it is snickered and sneered at.
They are like the Shí’ih mentioned here:
…what is intended by the Day of Resurrection is the Day of the appearance of the Tree of divine Reality, but it is not seen that any one of the followers of Shi’ih Islam hath understood the meaning of the Day of Resurrection; rather have they fancifully imagined a thing which with God hath no reality. (The Bab, SWB, p. 106)

And yet the Master says:
Public opinion must be directed toward whatever is worthy of this day,
and this is impossible except through the use of adequate arguments
and the adducing of clear, comprehensive and conclusive proofs.
For the helpless masses know nothing of the world,
and while there is no doubt that they seek and long for their own happiness,
yet ignorance like a heavy veil shuts them away from it.
~ Abdu’l-Baha, SDC, p. 110

Be patient as God, and wait an eternity for a fertile Earth to appear, then move swifter than anything when it is time for a harvest.

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

I struggle with trying to inform people who are not interested. .

The attempt is wrong-headed. Relax a little, “The wise are they that speak not unless they obtain a hearing…” And if you’re interested, a tradition 2000 years old has a thing or two to teach.

Shoghi Effendi says that the Bahai Revelation "disclaims any intention of dwarfing any of the Prophets of the past, or of whittling down the eternal verity of their teachings. It can, in no wise, conflict with the spirit that animates their claims, nor does it seek to undermine the basis of any man’s allegiance to their cause. (Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha’u’llah, p. 57).

And Baha’u’llah tells us to consort with the followers of all religions, not to convert them !

 

[DavidMark]

God bless everyone.

 

[planten]

Ok dear friends, you can tell i’m zealous, and want to share too much, perhaps.
But i challenge you to phrase concise questions, and you’ll get concise answers.
Even you Mickey, come on now!
But i feel like you don’t think valid answers are really possible, since you (like Jews and Muslims) don’t think there can be any “public” Revelation from God to mankind anymore; and you don’t want to study texts that you don’t accept the authority for, and you all seem to be basically uninterested, critical, sceptical. And I haven’t even got to the best part yet!Please prove me wrong.

DavidMark, you believe (or Baha’is believe) that revelation is still continued. It has not ended. I also believe you. But could you clarify a few things. It may help you to propagate your religion a little further:

1. Are there different kinds of revelations?? I mean law bearing and non-law bearing? Please give concise reply.
2. Moses was a law baring prophet of God. Do you believe that?
3. Many prophets followed in the footsteps of Moses a.s. Yes or No??
4. Were those prophets law bearing?? Did they bring any new law?
5. Was Jesus a law bearing prophet of God?? Yes or NO.
6. Was Muhammad a law bearing prophet?? Since you believe in Muhammad and Quran, please tell if Muhammad was a law bearing prophet or not.
7. According to Baha’i faith, can any law bearing prophet appear now in the world after Bahaullah??
8. Can any **non-law bearing prophet **appear in the world now according to your faith?
9. Do you know what is the **real belief **of the Muslims about any future revelation?
10. Do you know what is the belief of the Christians (church) about any future revelations?

I have given you some concise questions and they are related to revelation. Please reply by numbers.

P.S. Please explain what you mean by PUBLIC revelation. Try to use law or non-law revelations. Is prophet of God included in your PUBLIC Domain?