Baha'i understanding of revelation

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Like DavidMark said: clear questions, clear answers. I tried searching back up the thread to find what these unanswered questions were, but I couldn’t find them.
Yes, you guys did provide answers, but they were not clear and concise answers, they were loaded with writings from your prophet.

You never really answered the Baha’i understand of revelation and why Joseph Smith is not included. DavidMark (I believe) did answer that Joseph Smith did not claim to be Christ but he ignored my follow up that Moses and Muhammad did not claim to be the Christ either. Abraham (who I believe you listed as a prophet) also did not claim to be the Christ, it seems that DavidMark is saying that only those who claim to be the Christ are prophets.

You both have ignored the issue of Christians believing that Jesus is God.

It seem that only Usbek de Perse has provided clear answers. You may believe that you have answered but I do not think so.

I also have asked repeatedly why you have such a hard time understanding that we Catholics have a different religion and beliefs and repeated postings of the writings of your founders will not help in the discussion. You could summarize it in your own words for us.

But as I said, this is not going anywhere and the discussion actually stopped when DavidMark resorted to calling me a Pharisee because I disagree with him.
 
Generally we believe there are two types of “Prophets”…

The Independent Prophets that bring a new revelation called in Islam “Rasuli” and also what we Baha’is call Manifestations of God…

Then there are what you Christians call the lesser prophets… those inspired through the major Prophets…more like “Nabi” in Islam.

The Independent Revelators are the Suns of the dispensations while the minor prophets are reflecting the light as planets and moons do in the solar system of their “Sun”.

Since the Baha’i Faith emerged out of Islam about a hundred and sixty years ago … Yes we have a pretty good idea what Muslims believe about future revelation…as it relates to the Mahdi and the Return of the Twelfth Imam and more…

Baha’is many of whom have a Christian background also have a pretty good idea about the prophecies of the Return of Christ and we believe it’s been fulfilled.
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ByzCath wrote above:

You both have ignored the issue of Christians believing that Jesus is God.

Actually we know very well that most Christians believe Jesus is God…

We believe Jesus Christ was a Manifestation of God so that for His time and to the people He revealed Himself to He was regarded probably as a “God”.

We Baha’is believe He reflected perfectly the attributes of God and was the Mediator between God and men but we would not say today Jesus is/was God.

So yes there is a distinction from what we Baha’is believe and how you’ve probably been instructed in Church or Seminary…
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ByzCath wrote:

You never really answered the Baha’i understand of revelation and why Joseph Smith is not included.

The simple answer is that we don’t regard Joseph Smith as a Prophet… we see im as a seer and that he anticipated the spirit of the age in some ways but he is not regarded by us as a Prophet.

Also Mormons still regard themselves as Christians so Joseph Smith from his own statement saw himself as under the shadow of Christ…

We do regard William Miller in much the same way…someone who sensed that Jesus was returning around 1844… but he is not a Prophet in our view.

Both Smith and Miller were anticipating the last days…

Shaikh Ahmad and Siyyid Kazim in Persia also had intimations of the prophesied Return of the Twefth Imam … They were contemporaries of Smith and Miller and they had intimations too…but we don’t regard them as prophets either…

Hope that helps!
  • Art
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ByzCath wrote:

You never really answered the Baha’i understand of revelation and why Joseph Smith is not included.

The simple answer is that we don’t regard Joseph Smith as a Prophet… we see im as a seer and that he anticipated the spirit of the age in some ways but he is not regarded by us as a Prophet.

Also Mormons still regard themselves as Christians so Joseph Smith from his own statement saw himself as under the shadow of Christ…

We do regard William Miller in much the same way…someone who sensed that Jesus was returning around 1844… but he is not a Prophet in our view.

Both Smith and Miller were anticipating the last days…

Shaikh Ahmad and Siyyid Kazim in Persia also had intimations of the prophesied Return of the Twefth Imam … They were contemporaries of Smith and Miller and they had intimations too…but we don’t regard them as prophets either…

Hope that helps!
  • Art
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So if you recognize all these disparate prophets with contradictory messages, how to you reconcile this?

The messages from the different prophets you recognize go against each other.

Revelation is closed as God revealed Himself by becoming a man, Jesus, you can not go any further than God Himself.
 
Yes, you guys did provide answers, but they were not clear and concise answers, they were loaded with writings from your prophet.

You never really answered the Baha’i understand of revelation and why Joseph Smith is not included. DavidMark (I believe) did answer that Joseph Smith did not claim to be Christ but he ignored my follow up that Moses and Muhammad did not claim to be the Christ either. Abraham (who I believe you listed as a prophet) also did not claim to be the Christ, it seems that DavidMark is saying that only those who claim to be the Christ are prophets.

You both have ignored the issue of Christians believing that Jesus is God.

It seem that only Usbek de Perse has provided clear answers. You may believe that you have answered but I do not think so.

I also have asked repeatedly why you have such a hard time understanding that we Catholics have a different religion and beliefs and repeated postings of the writings of your founders will not help in the discussion. You could summarize it in your own words for us.

But as I said, this is not going anywhere and the discussion actually stopped when DavidMark resorted to calling me a Pharisee because I disagree with him.
On the Bahai understanding of revelation, I’ve posted an explanation:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5923497&postcount=26

On why Joseph Smith is not included, I’ve posted an explanation
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5920963&postcount=7

I’m not responsible for what DavidMark may have said.

On the divinity of Christ : in Bahai belief, Jesus is the Son of God and, like all the Manifestations, is and is not God depending on how you look at it. I think that’s more or less christian tradition too - hence the distinction between two persons and one substance.

I can’t imagine why you think I don’t understand that Catholics have a different religion and beliefs. I studied a couple of years in a seminary, and I did notice it was different. I rather liked it
 
DavidMark, you believe (or Baha’is believe) that revelation is still continued. It has not ended. I also believe you. But could you clarify a few things. It may help you to propagate your religion a little further: **Thank you for your help friend **🙂
  1. Are there different kinds of revelations?? I mean law bearing and non-law bearing? Nabiyyin promote the laws of the Rasul Prophets.
  2. Moses was a law baring prophet of God. Do you believe that? **Yes. I also believe the prophecies of the Israelite prophets should be noticed by Muslims, like their retun from exile, and the meek, or righteous, inheriting the earth, as it is in Psalms and the Quran 21:105 "And now, since the Law was given, have we written in al-Zubur (the Psalms)
    that “my servants, the righteous, shall inherit the earth.”
    [This is the only verse in the Qur’án to quote from another text, {Psalms 37:29}]
It means that Baha’u’llah will abrogate military jihad, but the Jews will possess the land and protect Holy Places the Arab armies might destroy, in Haifa and Akko.

“…to David did we give the Psalms.” Sura 17

“Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.” ~Matthew 5:5 **
  1. Many prophets followed in the footsteps of Moses a.s. **Yes **
  2. Were those prophets law bearing?? Did they bring any new law?
    Not until Jesus were observances supposd to change much. In Islam they were much like the laws of Moses, too. This similarity is called “clothed in sack-cloth” in Revelation chapter 11.
  3. Was Jesus a law bearing prophet of God?? **Yes, He did alter observation of certain laws, like divorce, sabbath, capital punishment and revealed alterations in diet to Peter and Paul. **
  4. Was Muhammad a law bearing prophet?? Since you believe in Muhammad and Quran, please tell if Muhammad was a law bearing prophet or not. Of course He was.
  5. According to Baha’i faith, can any law bearing prophet appear now in the world after Bahaullah?? Not for at least 1000 solar years…but yes.
  6. Can any **non-law bearing prophet **appear in the world now according to your faith?
    In confirmation of the exalted rank of the true believer, referred to by Bahá’u’lláh, He reveals the following: “The station which he who hath truly recognized this Revelation will attain is the same as the one ordained for such prophets of the house of Israel as are not regarded as Manifestations ‘endowed with constancy.’”(Abdu’l-Baha, quoted in The World Order of Baha’u’llah, p. 111)
  7. Do you know what is the **real belief **of the Muslims about any future revelation? They are awaiting the Presence of God, the Ruler of the Day of Reckoning, and the Judgment, all of which are in the divine Manifestation of Baha’u’llah and the Bab.
  8. Do you know what is the belief of the Christians (church) about any future revelations?
    Like the Muslims, they await God ruling in the New Jerusalem, and White Throne Judgment, but don’t see it fulfilled yet, like Baha’is do.
I have given you some concise questions and they are related to revelation. Please reply by numbers.

P.S. Please explain what you mean by PUBLIC revelation. Try to use law or non-law revelations. Is prophet of God included in your PUBLIC Domain?
**The term “public” Revelation was used by the Christians in here, ByzCath i think. He must mean a Revelation from God to Humanity, not someone’s private subject vision. He thinks that is over, but Baha’is say it is not./**QUOTE]
 
Now I would like to draw the people’s attention to certain prophecies:

7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. (Daniel KJV)

O Son of Utterance!
Turn thy face unto Mine
and renounce all save Me;
for My sovereignty endureth
and My dominion perisheth not.
If thou seekest another than Me, yea,
if thou searchest the universe for evermore,
thy quest will be in vain.

(Baha’u’llah, The Arabic Hidden Words, #15)

This Everlasting Dominion belongs to the Everlasting Father, the Holy One of Israel,
Who has fulfilled His promised and established Himself in the midst of her.
He has come in His new name “Bahá’u’lláh” (The Glory of God) and Israel can come home.

Joel 2:27 (King James Version)
You shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I, the LORD, am your God and there is none else. And my people shall never again be put to shame.

Isaiah 11:1-10, it is said: "And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord; And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. … And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice’ den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea. In that day the root of Jesse shall stand as an ensign to the peoples; him shall the nations seek, and his dwellings shall be glorious…” (Look at the Baha’is Shrines and holy places)

Isaiah 11:12-16 “He will raise an ensign for the nations and will assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. The jealousy of Ephraim shall depart, and those who harass Judah shall be cut off; Ephraim shall not be jealous of Judah, and Judah shall not harass Ephraim. But they shall swoop down upon the shoulder of the Philistines in the west, and together they shall plunder the people of the east…

Micah 7:12-15 In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain. Notwithstanding the land shall be desolate because of them that dwell therein, for the fruit of their doings. Feed thy people with thy rod, the flock of thine heritage, which dwell solitarily in the wood, in the midst of Carmel: let them feed in Bashan and Gilead, as in the days of old. According to the days of thy coming out of the land of Egypt will I shew unto him marvellous things. (that is, a 40 year ministry)

Abdu’l-Baha said: “These conditions did not prevail in the time of the manifestation of Christ; for until today various and antagonistic nations exist in the world: very few acknowledge the God of Israel, and the greater number are without the knowledge of God. In the same way, universal peace did not come into existence in the time of Christ – that is to say, between the antagonistic and hostile nations there was neither peace nor concord, disputes and disagreements did not cease, and reconciliation and sincerity did not appear. So, even at this day, among the Christian sects and nations themselves, enmity, hatred and the most violent hostility are met with.But these verses apply word for word to Bahá’u’lláh.
**…All men will adhere to one religion, will have one common faith, will be blended into one race, and become a single people. All will dwell in one common fatherland, which is the planet itself. **Universal peace and concord will be realized between all the nations, and that Incomparable Branch will gather together all Israel, signifying that in this cycle Israel will be gathered in the Holy Land, and that the Jewish people who are scattered to the East and West, South and North, will be assembled together. Now see: these events did not take place in the Christian cycle.”

To me this is the clearest sign of the appearance of the Promised Lord of Hosts, Holy One of Israel, Everlasting Father, Malik’ul Yom ud-Dín (Ruler of the Day of Reckoning) etc.
We are only at the beginning of the growth of this great Tree Baha’u’llah has planted. It will over-shadow the whole Earth, all mankind, every nation shall worship the Lord in agreement. I shudder to think what we must suffer to turn to Him!
 
A summarization in my own words for ByzCath::o

If any of God’s Prophets wanted to, they could claim to be the Voice of God.
You differentiated between Moses and Jesus, but I see lots of similarities, like being rescued when they were infants. This was important to the Jews who became Christian.

If the Voice of God is being spoken, hit the deck, whether he is a stammerer like Moses, or born of a virgin like Jesus, the AUTHORITY is the same. Three times this has happened since Jesus. Muhammad and the Bab and Baha’u’llah and the One to come after Baha’u’llah, (after 1000 solar years, and no sooner) have that same AUTHORITY.

Joseph Smith isn’t of the Semetic line and was looking forward to the imminent coming of Christ in the “Glory of the Father” and died before news came to America of Baha’u’llah in the East, like Lightning, i might add, since the telegraph had been invented the day after the Declaration of the Bab. The BOM is a reflection of the Bible, as everyone knows, and not a new Revelation such as you see from the Central Figures of Baha’i.

All this tech we are using to talk is because of the Bab and Baha’u’llah. “Knowledge has increased” but what use is it, if we are clinging to traditions and don’t want the new and wonderful things He brings?
 
A summarization in my own words for ByzCath::o

If any of God’s Prophets wanted to, they could claim to be the Voice of God.
Jesus is not the Voice of God, He is God.
How do you know who is the Voice of God?
Joseph Smith isn’t of the Semetic line and was looking forward to the imminent coming of Christ in the “Glory of the Father” and died before news came to America of Baha’u’llah in the East, like Lightning, i might add, since the telegraph had been invented the day after the Declaration of the Bab. The BOM is a reflection of the Bible, as everyone knows, and not a new Revelation such as you see from the Central Figures of Baha’i.
So all prophets must be of the Semetic line? The Book of Mormon is not a reflection of the Bible as it contains “revelations” that contradict the Bible.
All this tech we are using to talk is because of the Bab and Baha’u’llah. “Knowledge has increased” but what use is it, if we are clinging to traditions and don’t want the new and wonderful things He brings?
I do not even know how to respond to this but I highly doubt that the technological advances have come about through your prophet.
[/QUOTE]
 
ByzCath wrote:

*I highly doubt that the technological advances have come about through your prophet. *

Baha’u’llah was not an “inventor” but anyone looking at the explosion of human knowledge and inventions can see that in the past two centuries unparalleled developements:

See how, in this day, the scope of sciences and arts hath widened out, and what wondrous technical advances have been made, and to what a high degree the mind’s powers have increased, and what stupendous inventions have appeared.
This age is indeed as a hundred other ages: should ye gather the yield of a hundred ages, and set that against the accumulated product of our times, the yield of this one era will prove greater than that of a hundred gone before. Take ye, for an example, the sum total of all the books that were ever written in ages past, and compare that with the books and treatises that our era hath produced: these books, written in our day alone, far and away exceed the total number of volumes that have been written down the ages. See how powerful is the influence exerted by the Day-Star of the world upon the inner essence of all created things!


~ Abdu’l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu’l-Baha, p. 111-112

We Baha’is believe this is due to the new Spirit of the age…

and we really do see a “new heaven and a new earth” in the past few centuries. We see nature around us in a totally different way than most people did say three centuries ago.

Also to carry the analogy of the heavens further… a “new heaven” can mean a new spiritual heaven and the fall of the stars can mean the loss of temporal power by say the Caliphate which eneded around 1924 and the loss to the Church of the Papal states in Italy in 1870…also the loss of power by many clerics…
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ByzCath wrote:

*I highly doubt that the technological advances have come about through your prophet. *

Baha’u’llah was not an “inventor” but anyone looking at the explosion of human knowledge and inventions can see that in the past two centuries unparalleled developements:
Wow! You are aware of the logical fallacy ofPost Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc?

This is Latin which can be translated as “After this, therefore because of this.”

So by your logic I can say that the technological advances of today are because of my Great Grandfather.

It just does not hold water and claims like this further discredit your religion in the eyes of those who understand logic.
 
ByzCath: (Thank you for your patience)
Try to see it like this: The Divine Manifestations release a spirit which regenerates human understandings, inventions, arts and civilization. This subject was not even discussed in the past, but perhaps some people suspected it. For instance, this is what the Baha’i Writings say about the crucifixion of Jesus:

Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.(Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 85)

So, we are saying that the tremendous upsurge in scientific knowledge in the last 150 years is due to the fresh influx of spirit, inspiring receptive minds, such as Einstein’s in the field of physics, and other’s in various technical fields. This was indicatd by Daniel when he said (12:4) **“Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge will increase.” **That whole chapter was about the rise of Archangel Michael, which is taken up again in Revelation 12. They dealt with the same topic: the coming of the Son of Man (the spirit of Christ).
It is also mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 4:16
"For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet."
We know Jesus came down from heaven before, but outwardly from Mary, so it is not a matter of going up and down from the visible sky. And the sound of a trumpet can’t be heard beyond one city, so it is a symbol for a WAKE UP CALL!
Verily We have sounded the Trumpet which is none other than My Pen of Glory, and lo, mankind hath swooned away before it, save them whom God pleaseth to deliver as a token of His grace. He is the Lord of bounty, the Ancient of Days.(Tablets of Baha’u’llah, p. 61)

Sorry I had to use quotations. I’m sure you’ll forgive me. 🙂
 
Generally we believe there are two types of “Prophets”…

The Independent Prophets that bring a new revelation called in Islam “Rasuli” and also what we Baha’is call Manifestations of God…

Then there are what you Christians call the lesser prophets… those inspired through the major Prophets…more like “Nabi” in Islam.

The Independent Revelators are the Suns of the dispensations while the minor prophets are reflecting the light as planets and moons do in the solar system of their “Sun”.

Since the Baha’i Faith emerged out of Islam about a hundred and sixty years ago … Yes we have a pretty good idea what Muslims believe about future revelation…as it relates to the Mahdi and the Return of the Twelfth Imam and more…

Baha’is many of whom have a Christian background also have a pretty good idea about the prophecies of the Return of Christ and we believe it’s been fulfilled.
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The same two categories, Rasul and Navi also are in the Old Testament. However, Jesus Christ does not fall into any pre-established categories. He is the Messiah, the Son of God. Although the Old Testament is full of prophesies concerning Christ, his reality is one that none could imagine. He is entirely unique.
 
You know, I have no idea why they don’t have Joseph Smith listed as a prophet. Muhammad and Baha’ullah are false prophets so why not Joseph Smith to add to the list? :rolleyes::confused:
 
The messages from the different prophets you recognize go against each other.
Simple: you study their messages and see if they really do contradict. There are always plenty of people in every party who want to highlight differences, to make themselves unique. But study what Moses and Jesus said, and see how those two fit together, in a complementary fashion. Then apply the same method to Muhammad and the Bab and Baha’u’llah. Do they complement, or contradict?
 
So yes there is a distinction from what we Baha’is believe and how you’ve probably been instructed in Church or Seminary…
Actually I don’t think there’s that much difference. “Jesus is God” is a shorthand version, which no Catholic theologian would accept without some nuancing - Jesus and God are said to be two persons (Jesus is not God in that sense) and one substance (homo-ousios, substance in the philosophical sense not the chemical one !). The Cahtolic version uses terms drawn from Greek philosophy and the Bahai one uses terms drawn from islamic theology, but is there actually a difference in what is being said?

Bahai explanations of this focus more on perspectival unity of God and Manifestation, but if you were asked what exactly it is about Jesus or Baha’u’llah that makes them represent God to us and at the same time embody a perfect human response to God, and to put your answer in Greek terminology – you’d have to say that while God and the Manifestation are not the same person (it is not the person of God come down from heaven), and that the Manifestation has two natures, human and divine, and the divine nature is - well - divine. I don’t think theres a real difference between Catholic and Bahai viewpoints on this - the difference is that Bahais apply this to Moses as well - “whom the LORD knew face to face” (Deuteronomy 34:10)

Acts does make the connection:
For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me (3:22, 7:37)

but generally speaking Christian theology has not.
 
So all prophets must be of the Semetic line? The Book of Mormon is not a reflection of the Bible as it contains “revelations” that contradict the Bible.
No, Bahai doctrine is that God never leaves people without guidance, therefore the semitic line or Abrahamic religions is just one part of God’s work.

I agree about the Book of Mormon: I don’t regard it as inspired at all. But as I said before, there’s nothing about Joseph Smith in the Bahai scriptures, so Bahais make up their own minds about him. Some treat him as a seer, I don’t.
 
Actually I don’t think there’s that much difference. “Jesus is God” is a shorthand version, which no Catholic theologian would accept without some nuancing - Jesus and God are said to be two persons (Jesus is not God in that sense) and one substance (homo-ousios, substance in the philosophical sense not the chemical one !). The Cahtolic version uses terms drawn from Greek philosophy and the Bahai one uses terms drawn from islamic theology, but is there actually a difference in what is being said?
This is a misunderstand of Catholic Theology.

Jesus and God are not two persons, Jesus and God are one being with two natures, one divine, one human, Jesus is God in every sense.
 
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