Baha'i understanding of revelation

[DavidMark]

You know, I have no idea why they don’t have Joseph Smith listed as a prophet. Muhammad and Baha’ullah are false prophets so why not Joseph Smith to add to the list?

You don’t care if Joseph Smith is listed or not since you don’t believe in him either, like ByzCath. What’s it to you?
I intend to remember this. I will ask God in the Next World to assemble you and I together, and verify what you have said, or what I have said (that Muhammad and Baha’u’llah are Divine Manifestations, Law-Givers, Rasulí, true Prophets etc.)

Come recite the Greatest Name 95 times.

 

[Usbek_de_Perse]

You don’t care if Joseph Smith is listed or not since you don’t believe in him either, like ByzCath. What’s it to you?
I intend to remember this. I will ask God in the Next World to assemble you and I together, and verify what you have said, or what I have said (that Muhammad and Baha’u’llah are Divine Manifestations, Law-Givers, Rasulí, true Prophets etc.)

Come recite the Greatest Name 95 times.

Wow, an eschatological threat! This is not worthy of a Baha’i. Would 'Abdu’l-Baha say something like that? How would he react if he heard of one of his followers saying that?

This trivializes a profound reality, the the life to come, life after death. Christians, Muslims, and Baha’is have important teachings about eternal life. I held such belief in very high regard as a Baha’i, and I could not stand it when people said things like, “I’ll see you in the Abha Kingdom.”

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

This is a misunderstand of Catholic Theology.

Jesus and God are not two persons, Jesus and God are one being with two natures, one divine, one human, Jesus is God in every sense.

I think you have two different things confused here: the trinity and the doctrine of the two natures, human and divine, in Christ.

The Catholic Encyclopaedia says “The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion — the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another. …” etc.

So unless the Vatican has had a big change of mind recently, Catholic doctrine is that the Father and Son are two different persons - just like Bahai doctrine.

The two different natures in one person (hypostatic union) is part of the doctrine of incarnation. Bahais also teach the two natures, but do not call it “incarnation”

Sen

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I think you have two different things confused here: the trinity and the doctrine of the two natures, human and divine, in Christ.

The Catholic Encyclopaedia says “The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion — the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another. …” etc.

So unless the Vatican has had a big change of mind recently, Catholic doctrine is that the Father and Son are two different persons - just like Bahai doctrine.

The two different natures in one person (hypostatic union) is part of the doctrine of incarnation. Bahais also teach the two natures, but do not call it “incarnation”

Sen

You misunderstand Catholic Teachings.

First I was responding to what I thought was being said that Jesus’ human nature and divine nature were separate.

Now that you have clarified that you are speaking of the Trinity, I will respond to that.

Jesus is indeed God. Jesus and God are not two separate persons. The Trinity is three beings but one God. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. So to say that Jesus and God are two different persons is incorrect. Jesus, the Son, and the Father are two different beings, but are one God.

 

[arthra]

Baha’is believe God is one…

His Messengers or Manifestations are as Perfect Mirrors that reflect without distortion the attributes of God:

These sanctified Mirrors, these Day Springs of ancient glory, are, one and all, the Exponents on earth of Him Who is the central Orb of the universe, its Essence and ultimate Purpose. From Him proceed their knowledge and power; from Him is derived their sovereignty. The beauty of their countenance is but a reflection of His image, and their revelation a sign of His deathless glory. They are the Treasuries of Divine knowledge, and the Repositories of celestial wisdom. Through them is transmitted a grace that is infinite, and by them is revealed the Light that can never fade… These Tabernacles of Holiness, these Primal Mirrors which reflect the light of unfading glory, are but expressions of Him Who is the Invisible of the Invisibles. By the revelation of these Gems of Divine virtue all the names and attributes of God, such as knowledge and power, sovereignty and dominion, mercy and wisdom, glory, bounty, and grace, are made manifest.

(Baha’u’llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 47-48)

The Manifestations are also Mediators between God and Man:

EACH religion teaches that a mediator is necessary between man and the Creator – one who receives the full light of the divine splendor and radiates it over the human world, as the earth’s atmosphere receives and diffuses the warmth of the sun’s rays. This mediator between God and humanity has different designations though he always brings the same spiritual command.

(Abdu’l-Baha, Divine Philosophy, p. 32)

God does not physically incarnate Himself in our belief:

The human temple that has been made the vehicle of so overpowering a Revelation must, if we be faithful to the tenets of our Faith, ever remain entirely distinguished from that “innermost Spirit of Spirits” and “eternal Essence of Essences” – that invisible yet rational God Who, however much we extol the divinity of His Manifestations on earth, can in no wise incarnate His infinite, His unknowable, His incorruptible and all-embracing Reality in the concrete and limited frame of a mortal being. Indeed, the God Who could so incarnate His own reality would, in the light of the teachings of Bahá’u’lláh, cease immediately to be God.

(Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha’u’llah, p. 112)

• Art

 

[DavidMark]

You misunderstand Catholic Teachings.

Jesus is indeed God. Jesus and God are not two separate persons. The Trinity is three beings but one God. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. So to say that Jesus and God are two different persons is incorrect. Jesus, the Son, and the Father are two different beings, but are one God.

So, there is a triune relationship, but God is One. “Here O Israel…the Lord is one.”
All are created by God, including the Primal Will or Logos. We are not in disagreement.

God is like the sun. The Holy Spirit is like the constant radiation from the sun. It is never withheld. (Spectroscopy, is how the astronomers know everything about a star: its, distance, mass, constituency, magnitude etc.)
**The Son, as well as other appearances of the Spirit of Truth (such as His own return in “the Glory of the Everlasting Father”, are like reflections of the sun in perfect Primal Mirrors. **
Everything is dependent upon God, including the perfect pre-existent Image of God we called the Son, who had the attributes of the “Father”. “If you have seen Me you have seen the Father”.
But the Essence of God is supreme in priority and in time, unknowable and unapproachable. “No one hath seen God at any time”. “The Father is greater than I.”
The image of God in everything is dependent upon God alone. Our hearts are like mirrors reflecting the Light of the Primal Mirror, Who was created to mediate between us and God; and we should polish them, to be more faithful reflections. This is a complete explanation, and it is not in contradiction to any benediction.

 

[Mickey]

The same two categories, Rasul and Navi also are in the Old Testament. However, Jesus Christ does not fall into any pre-established categories. He is the Messiah, the Son of God. Although the Old Testament is full of prophesies concerning Christ, his reality is one that none could imagine. He is entirely unique.

Amen. And they do not believe this. That is why the discussion and/or debate ends rather quickly. Oh sure, they will continue with long dissertations and double talk in an effort to promote their cultish understanding, but the conversation ends for them after the truth is declared, “Jesus Christ is the Messiah, the Son of the Living God”!

Peace and blessings!

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

So, there is a triune relationship, but God is One. “Here O Israel…the Lord is one.”
All are created by God, including the Primal Will or Logos. We are not in disagreement.

The Logos, the Word of God, which is Jesus, was not created by God, He is God.

From the Nicene Creed here is what we believe about Jesus.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,

 

[Usbek_de_Perse]

Amen. And they do not believe this. That is why the discussion and/or debate ends rather quickly. Oh sure, they will continue with long dissertations and double talk in an effort to promote their cultish understanding, but the conversation ends for them after the truth is declared, “Jesus Christ is the Messiah, the Son of the Living God”!

Peace and blessings!

I am dismayed by the recent tone of this thread. Baha’is are not cultish, and, as religions go, they are quite moderate, moral, and in many respects, orthodox with regard to Abrahamic religion. They do not embrace mysticism; they do not teach that a person can “become a god”, and they firmly teach that God can only be known through his messengers. In this respect, they are consistent with Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

Also, unlike cults, they are quite good about letting you leave. I maintain a warm and cordial friendship with the girl (now woman) who first taught me the Baha’i Faith in 1973. She remains a dedicated and active believer. BTW, I was at Oklahoma City and St. Louis.

I am also dismayed by my former fellow believers who think that pasting long passages of Baha’u’llah will result in readers of this forum understanding their arguments and potentially accepting their claims. As I have said before, Baha’is, like others, have a very high regard for the spiritual power of their founder’s writings. I detect more than a small amount of bitterness in some of their postings.

Going back to previous posts I have made here, I think that if I were still a Baha’i, I would explain Baha’i belief as I have done here, perhaps with a bit more insider slant, but not really differently.

Finally, the Baha’i posters should remember where they are, and not expect an unqualified friendly welcome when they boldly put forward their beliefs. This is a Catholic website, for heaven’s sake! It would be like setting up a Baha’i table in St. Peter’s Square during a papal conclave. I have manned Baha’i tables on the UC Berkeley campus, and been politely ignored. Goodness knows, I am Episcopalian and there are plenty of Catholics ready to tell me, kindly and lovingly, that I am wrong about certain things and that the quickest road to heaven is through the RC church.

 

[Mickey]

Baha’is are not cultish

You are entitled to your opinion.
My experience differs from yours.
Although they may not fit into the concrete “definition” of a “cult”, my encounters with this “belief system” reveal a definite underlying current of “cultish” pluralism.

Furthermore, I also believe that some of their so-called “prophets” (Mohammed, Bahá’u’lláh, Krishna, Zoroaster, Buddha) are not prophets at all.

 

[arthra]

I’ve been on this forum since ariound 2004 and you know the only reason I post here is to provide information about Baha’i Faith… If someone asks…

The reason is that no one should be ignorant even when they disagree with the other feller…

As to arguments I’m not here to tell Catholics what they believe… They already know that…

Nor am I here to convert anyone…nor do I expect to…

So if you have a question be my guest…

• Art

 

[DavidMark]

The Logos, the Word of God, which is Jesus, was not created by God, He is God.

From the Nicene Creed here is what we believe about Jesus.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,

Friend, don’t make a contest when there isn’t one. We’re in agreement here.
If you see the sun in the mirror what is it, the Sun!
‘If you have seen me you have seen the Father.’
You just said ‘born of the Father’.
Is your son the same as you?
‘No one is good but the Father’
…meaning goodness derives frm the Father alone.
Why do you want to be so testy.

 

[DavidMark]

Wow, an eschatological threat! This is not worthy of a Baha’i. Would 'Abdu’l-Baha say something like that? How would he react if he heard of one of his followers saying that?
This trivializes a profound reality, the the life to come, life after death. Christians, Muslims, and Baha’is have important teachings about eternal life. I held such belief in very high regard as a Baha’i, and I could not stand it when people said things like, “I’ll see you in the Abha Kingdom.”

It’s only a threat or a promise, if there is need of punishment or reward. There is a ife Hereafter, why pretnd there isn’t. I’ll see you there, hopefully it’s not across the gulf of Abraham and the rich man in Luke 16. Here are a few things 'Abdu’l-Baha would say:

Know thou those souls partake of the Eternal Life in whom the Spirit of Life is breathed from the Presence of God and all beside them are dead- without Life, as Christ hath explained in the texts of the Gospel. ~Tablets of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, v2, p. 452

**The life of man in this world is short and will soon draw to an end. Consequently one must appreciate (or count as gain) every breath (or moment) of his life and endeavor in that which is conducive to eternal glory. ** ~Tablets of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, v1, p. 206

**Soon will our handful of days, our vanishing life, be gone, and we shall pass, empty-handed, into the hollow that is dug for those who speak no more; wherefore must we bind our hearts to the manifest Beauty, and cling to the lifeline that faileth never. **~‘Abdu’l-Bahá, SWA, p. 267

Expend your every breath of life in this great Cause and dedicate all your days to the service of Bahá, so that in the end, safe from loss and deprivation, ye will inherit the heaped-up treasures of the realms above. For the days of a man are full of peril and he cannot rely on so much as a moment more of life; and still the people, who are even as a wavering mirage of illusions, tell themselves that in the end they shall reach the heights. Alas for them! The men of bygone times hugged these same fancies to their breasts, until a wave flicked over them and they returned to dust, and they found themselves excluded and bereft – all save those souls who had freed themselves from self and had flung away their lives in the pathway of God. Their bright star shone out in the skies of ancient glory, and the handed-down memories of all the ages are the proof of what I say. ~Selections from the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 271

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Friend, don’t make a contest when there isn’t one. We’re in agreement here.
If you see the sun in the mirror what is it, the Sun!
‘If you have seen me you have seen the Father.’
You just said ‘born of the Father’.
Is your son the same as you?
‘No one is good but the Father’
…meaning goodness derives frm the Father alone.
Why do you want to be so testy.

Because from what I have read we are not in agreement. Christ is not just a reflection of the Father, Christ is God just as the Father is.

 

[DavidMark]

You are entitled to your opinion.
My experience differs from yours.
Although they may not fit into the concrete “definition” of a “cult”, my encounters with this “belief system” reveal a definite underlying current of “cultish” pluralism.

Furthermore, I also believe that some of their so-called “prophets” (Mohammed, Bahá’u’lláh, Krishna, Zoroaster, Buddha) are not prophets at all.

Hope to introduce Mickey to Baha’u’llah too, when we all see the Suns of Prophethood at the heavenly Table.

25 ATTRIBUTES OF A CULT:
From a college course called “The Psychology of Fundamentalism” at the University of Texas

1. the leader is charismatic and often militaristically demanding
2. the leader is always right
3. elitism, the leaders treated as royalty or a sense of awe, hierarchical, authoritarian power structure
4. lower members get no respect, or get abused
5. leader is not held accountable for his actions or the actions of his authority structure
6. leader will not tolerate or receive criticism, but leader criticizes all others
7. there is no exit (There is always an exit – it’s the same doors you came in!!)
8. if members exit they are considered rebellious, out of the will of a higher power or the leader
9. members do not have any association with members that have left the group
10. there are no graduates from the “program” or group, just deserters or evil people
11. there is cult speak (a language many others can not understand)
12. personal attacks on critics or those who are not in the group
13. solidarity within themselves, no outside allegiance or association
14. use of guilt to manipulate members
15. the leaders of group are self absorbed
16. instant community
17. members unable to tell the truth
18. money grubbing
19. newcomers don’t “think right” and need to be trained
20. system of punishment and reward
21. intrusiveness
22. sense of powerless, dependency, covert fear, guilt
23. members and leaders are imbalanced or mentally ill
24. thought stopping language, clichés, or slogans
25. demands of ultra loyalty or ultra trust in the groups process and others

Mostly, these don’t apply to Bahá’u’lláh, Who used attraction, not threats to build His community. He passed away in 1892, and there is no living charismatic leader. He loved the humblest believers. They were free to go, and sometimes not permitted to come. He abrogated military jíhad and physical contention among persons, taught that individuals should investigate truth for themselvs, didn’t accept contributions except from enrolled members who gave voluntarily, advised telling the truth –even when it hurt. Reward and Punishment is God’s to give. He strengthened family unity, such as obtaining the consent of all living parents before marrying. Elsewhere, He said:
Should anyone give you a choice between the opportunity to render a service to Me and a service to them, choose ye to serve them, and let such service be a path leading you to Me. This is My exhortation and command unto thee. Observe therefore that which thy Lord, the Mighty, the Gracious, hath prescribed unto thee. (Lights of Guidance, p. 229)

 

[DavidMark]

Because from what I have read we are not in agreement. Christ is not just a reflection of the Father, Christ is God just as the Father is.

I want everyone to notice the difference between the positions of the two Davids:
The Bible says:
Hebrews 1:1-3 KJV God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom He hath appointed Heir of all things, by Whom also He made the worlds; Who being the brightness of His glory, and the express Image of His Person…

Colossians 1:15 Who is the Image of the invisible God, the Firstborn of every creature…

2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the LORD.

1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

And I asserted, (with all the love in my heart!) with the analogy of the sun in a mirror, that Jesus is a perfect image, or picture, of the Will, the Attributes and Perfection of God; but the planets do not orbit around the reflection of the sun --they orbit around the sun alone.
From a human, perspective Jesus is God, because we are created through Him physically and spiritually. But from the perspective of the Creator, Jesus is the first creation, a reflection of the Hidden nature to the manifest world. So, David Carm is stressing the Godhood of Jesus to the point of saying there is no difference between the Creator and His creation and that Jesus is not a reflection, when Scripture stresses that He is.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I want everyone to notice the difference between the positions of the two Davids:
The Bible says:
Hebrews 1:1-3 KJV God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom He hath appointed Heir of all things, by Whom also He made the worlds; Who being the brightness of His glory, and the express Image of His Person…

Colossians 1:15 Who is the Image of the invisible God, the Firstborn of every creature…

2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the LORD.

1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

And I asserted, (with all the love in my heart!) with the analogy of the sun in a mirror, that Jesus is a perfect image, or picture, of the Will, the Attributes and Perfection of God; but the planets do not orbit around the reflection of the sun --they orbit around the sun alone.
From a human, perspective Jesus is God, because we are created through Him physically and spiritually. But from the perspective of the Creator, Jesus is the first creation, a reflection of the Hidden nature to the manifest world. So, David Carm is stressing the Godhood of Jesus to the point of saying there is no difference between the Creator and His creation and that Jesus is not a reflection, when Scripture stresses that He is.

This is where you are misunderstanding what the Catholic Church Teaches.

Jesus is not a creation of God, He is God.

There are three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but only one God.

You are speaking as though I am saying that there are three Gods, there are not.

Again, there is One God in Three Persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. They are co-eternal, and co-equal. None of them are created, that all are.

 

[arthra]

I don’t know if it’s been brought up before BizCath but you may be interested in the “Trinity” mentioned by Abdul-Baha… and I submit this just as a piece for your information as to what is the Baha’i view on the subject and not so much as an “argument”…

Baha’is have no “theologians” as a class who attend say a seminary or such…

So whether you have come across aview like this in the context of your studies say in a seminary I have no way of knowing but this is the Baha’i view.

So here is Abdul-Baha giving a talk on the subject to Laura Clifford Barney:

The epitome of the discourse is that the Reality of Christ was a clear mirror, and the Sun of Reality – that is to say, the Essence of Oneness, with its infinite perfections and attributes – became visible in the mirror. The meaning is not that the Sun, which is the Essence of the Divinity, became divided and multiplied – for the Sun is one – but it appeared in the mirror. This is why Christ said, “The Father is in the Son,” meaning that the Sun is visible and manifest in this mirror.

*The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God which becomes visible and evident in the Reality of Christ. The Sonship station is the heart of Christ, and the Holy Spirit is the station of the spirit of Christ. Hence it has become certain and proved that the Essence of Divinity is absolutely unique and has no equal, no likeness, no equivalent. 115 *
This is the signification of the Three Persons of the Trinity.

(Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 114-115 )

The full discourse can be found at

reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/SAQ/saq-27.html.utf8?query=trinity&action=highlight#

For us Baha’is quoting Abdul-Baha is an authority in that He is the Interpretor of His Father’s (Baha’u’llah) Revelation…

• Art

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I don’t know if it’s been brought up before BizCath but you may be interested in the “Trinity” mentioned by Abdul-Baha… and I submit this just as a piece for your information as to what is the Baha’i view on the subject and not so much as an “argument”…

Baha’is have no “theologians” as a class who attend say a seminary or such…

So whether you have come across aview like this in the context of your studies say in a seminary I have no way of knowing but this is the Baha’i view.

So here is Abdul-Baha giving a talk on the subject to Laura Clifford Barney:

The epitome of the discourse is that the Reality of Christ was a clear mirror, and the Sun of Reality – that is to say, the Essence of Oneness, with its infinite perfections and attributes – became visible in the mirror. The meaning is not that the Sun, which is the Essence of the Divinity, became divided and multiplied – for the Sun is one – but it appeared in the mirror. This is why Christ said, “The Father is in the Son,” meaning that the Sun is visible and manifest in this mirror.

*The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God which becomes visible and evident in the Reality of Christ. The Sonship station is the heart of Christ, and the Holy Spirit is the station of the spirit of Christ. Hence it has become certain and proved that the Essence of Divinity is absolutely unique and has no equal, no likeness, no equivalent. 115 *
This is the signification of the Three Persons of the Trinity.

(Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 114-115 )

The full discourse can be found at

reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/SAQ/saq-27.html.utf8?query=trinity&action=highlight#

For us Baha’is quoting Abdul-Baha is an authority in that He is the Interpretor of His Father’s (Baha’u’llah) Revelation…

• Art

This is fine, but it is not what Catholics are talking about when we speak of the Trinity.

So you all must understand what we are saying when we speak of the Trinity and not say that we are speaking of the same thing because we are not. Your definition of the Trinity is not the same as the Catholic defintion of the Trinity.

Nor can you accuse me of being wrong, especially on a Catholic forum.

We can agree that we have two competing views of what the Trinity is.

 

[DavidMark]

Dear David,
Granted that we speak of matters above us, how can the lesser really comprehend the Greater, which comprehends us? But i, having no authority, can still try to express my hearts passion here or in St. Peter’s. Even if someone would come to my house threatening me, like in China, for what I am about to say…
If God is three, why didn’t He tell the Israelites that? He didn’t say we are three co-equal sides, like an equilateral triangle or three intersecting circles, If you say they weren’t ready for that yet, then you admit the need for progressive education of mankind, just as for the individual person, implying that we may still be learning about the divine System.
You are saying there are three equal gods, when God said He was One.
Now, i have been thinking about this all day at work, i guarantee you, and praying for the right way to say it to you and posterity. It is true the three aspects are co-eternal, but still, two rely utterly upon One.

Islam came to moderate the trend to deification.

They misbelieve who say, ‘Verily, God is the third of three;’ for there is no God but one, and if they do not desist from what they say, there shall touch those who misbelieve amongst them grievous woe. Will they not turn again towards God and ask pardon of Him? for God is forgiving and merciful.
The Messiah the son of Mary is only a prophet: prophets before him have passed away; and his mother was a confessor; they used both to eat food.- See how we explain to them the signs, yet see how they turn aside!(The Qur’an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 5 - The Table)

It is said that once John of Chrysostom was walking along the seashore thinking over the question of the trinity and trying to reconcile it with finite reason; his attention was attracted to a boy sitting on the shore putting water into a cup. Approaching him, he said, “My child, what art thou doing?”
“I am trying to put the sea into this cup,” was the answer.
“How foolish art thou," said John, "in trying to do the impossible.”
The child replied, “Thy work is stranger than mine, for thou art laboring to bring within the grasp of human intellect the conception of the trinity.” (‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Divine Philosophy, p. 152)