Baha'i understanding of revelation

[NoWings]

It is said that once John of Chrysostom was walking along the seashore thinking over the question of the trinity and trying to reconcile it with finite reason; his attention was attracted to a boy sitting on the shore putting water into a cup. Approaching him, he said, “My child, what art thou doing?”
“I am trying to put the sea into this cup,” was the answer.
“How foolish art thou," said John, "in trying to do the impossible.”
The child replied, “Thy work is stranger than mine, for thou art laboring to bring within the grasp of human intellect the conception of the trinity.” (‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Divine Philosophy, p. 152)

Eh, wait.

Wasn’t that St Augustine?

 

[DavidMark]

Now, having said that about the oneness of God and the servitude and prophethood of Jesus and others, the Baha’i understanding of Revelation asserts that we are now living in the Day of Days, when God will establish a kingdom, not only in the hearts, but in the world.
Revelation 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Revelation20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

So, unlike Christians and Muslims, Bahá’ís believe in the continuation of divine Revelation. The prophecies of the past point to the Twin Manifestations of the Báb and Bahá’u’lláh, and no one else. And Their appearance co-incides with the fufilment of certain prophecies regarding Israel which only the blind will deny. For many millenia, believers have awaited the rule of the Holy One of Israel upon the “white throne” of Judgment. That Day is now.
We can beat around the burning Bush all we want, but that belief is established and will grow to overshadow the entire Earth.

The fruits of Islam cannot be gathered except through allegiance unto Him [the Qá’im, the Báb] and by believing in Him. At the present time, however, only adverse effects have resulted; for although He hath appeared in the midmost heart of Islam, and all people profess it by reason of their relationship to Him [the Qá’im], yet unjustly have they consigned Him to the Mountain of Maku, and this notwithstanding that in the Qur’án the advent of the Day of Resurrection hath been promised unto all by God. For on that Day all men will be brought before God and will attain His Presence; which meaneth appearance before Him Who is the Tree of divine Reality and attainment unto His presence; inasmuch as it is not possible to appear before the Most Holy Essence of God, nor is it conceivable to seek reunion with Him. That which is feasible in the matter of appearance before Him and of meeting Him is attainment unto the Primal Tree.(The Bab, SWB, p. 108)
If ye seek God, it behooveth you to seek Him Whom God shall make manifest (Bahá’u’lláh), and if ye cherish the desire to dwell in the Ark of Names, ye will be distinguished as the guides to Him Whom God shall make manifest, did ye but believe in Him.(The Bab, SWB, p. 131)

This is why many Tablets begin with the words “He is God!” It is understood that all we will ever know of the Divine Essence is revealed in the Manifestations; and in this Day, Baha’is believe the prophecy is fulfilled: ‘God himself shall be with them, and be their God.’ Considering all that has happened, there is no other alternative but to either submit or reject.

 

[Mickey]

Hope to introduce Mickey to Baha’u’llah

No thanks. I do not need Balahulla.
I have Jesus Christ.
The Messiah–the Son of the living God.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and** the Word was God.**
Jn 1:1

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us…Jn 3:14

 

[DavidMark]

No thanks. I do not need Balahulla.
I have Jesus Christ.
The Messiah–the Son of the living God.

Mickey doesn’t need Bahá ‘u’ lláh. He doesn’t even feel the need to spell the Greatest Name correctly. So that’s clear.
Since this thread is about the Baha’i understanding of Revelation, it would seem that Mickey has had his last word, but i haven’t. I need Bahá’u’lláh, and a lot of others do too.
We are only at the dawn of a long cycle of time, in which mankind will come under a tent of unity, raised up by this Holy One of Israel. It is up to everyone to decide.

Joel 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.

Here is an extract from one of the most beloved Tablets of Baha’u’llah:
Thus doth the Nightingale utter His call unto you from this prison. He hath but to deliver this clear message. Whosoever desireth, let him turn aside from this counsel and whosoever desireth let him choose the path to his Lord. O people, if ye deny these verses, by what proof have ye believed in God? Produce it, O assemblage of false ones. Nay, by the One in Whose hand is my soul, they are not, and never shall be able to do this, even should they combine to assist one another.

… **Remember My days during thy days, and My distress and banishment in this remote prison. And be thou so steadfast in My love that thy heart shall not waver, even if the swords of the enemies rain blows upon thee and all the heavens and the earth arise against thee. Be thou as a flame of fire to My enemies and a river of life eternal to My loved ones, and be not of those who doubt.

And if thou art overtaken by affliction in My path, or degradation for My sake, be not thou troubled thereby. Rely upon God, thy God and the Lord of thy fathers. For the people are wandering in the paths of delusion, bereft of discernment to see God with their own eyes, or hear His Melody with their own ears. Thus have We found them, as thou also dost witness. Thus have their superstitions become veils between them and their own hearts and kept them from the path of God, the Exalted, the Great.**

Be thou assured in thyself that verily, he who turns away from this Beauty hath also turned away from the Messengers of the past and showeth pride towards God from all eternity to all eternity.

“Multitudes in the valley of decision”

 

[DavidMark]

Let there be no mistake. The principle of the Oneness of Mankind – the pivot round which all the teachings of Bahá’u’lláh revolve – is no mere outburst of ignorant emotionalism or an expression of vague and pious hope.
Its appeal is not to be merely identified with a reawakening of the spirit of brotherhood and good-will among men, nor does it aim solely at the fostering of harmonious cooperation among individual peoples and nations.
**Its implications are deeper, its claims greater than any which the Prophets of old were allowed to advance. **
Its message is applicable not only to the individual, but concerns itself primarily with the nature of those essential relationships that must bind all the states and nations as members of one human family.
It does not constitute merely the enunciation of an ideal, but stands inseparably associated with an institution adequate to embody its truth, demonstrate its validity, and perpetuate its influence.
**It implies an organic change in the structure of present-day society, a change such as the world has not yet experienced. **
It constitutes a challenge, at once bold and universal, to outworn shibboleths of national creeds – creeds that have had their day and which must, in the ordinary course of events as shaped and controlled by Providence, give way to a new gospel, fundamentally different from, and infinitely superior to, what the world has already conceived.
It calls for no less than the reconstruction and the demilitarization of the whole civilized world – a world organically unified in all the essential aspects of its life, its political machinery, its spiritual aspiration, its trade and finance, its script and language, and yet infinite in the diversity of the national characteristics of its federated units.
It represents the consummation of human evolution – an evolution that has had its earliest beginnings in the birth of family life, its subsequent development in the achievement of tribal solidarity, leading in turn to the constitution of the city-state, and expanding later into the institution of independent and sovereign nations. (Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 42)

 

[Mickey]

Mickey doesn’t need Bahá ‘u’ lláh.

No.

He doesn’t even feel the need to spell the Greatest Name correctly.

That is a strange name to spell.
Greatest name?
I think not.

So that’s clear.

Crystal.

I need Bahá’u’lláh

You have free will.

Here is an extract from one of the most beloved Tablets of Baha’u’llah:

And here is an Extract from our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ:

Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say to you, before Abraham was made, I am.
(Jn 8:58)

 

[Mickey]

Let there be no mistake. The principle of the Oneness of Mankind – the pivot round which all the teachings of Bahá’u’lláh revolve – is no mere outburst of ignorant emotionalism or an expression of vague and pious hope.

More comments aped from the Bahai reference library.

 

[DavidMark]

DavidMark resorted to calling me a Pharisee because I disagree with him.

That’s not necessarily a bad thing!

Acts 5:34 Then stood there up one in the council, a Pharisee, named Gamaliel, a doctor of the law, had in reputation among all the people, and commanded to put the apostles forth a little space; 5:35 And said unto them, Ye men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what ye intend to do as touching these men…
5:38 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: 5:39 But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God. (Acts)

**If this Cause be of God, no man can prevail against it; and if it be not of God, the divines amongst you, and they that follow their corrupt desires and such as have rebelled against Him will surely suffice to overpower it. **(Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 220)

 

[arthra]

This is fine, but it is not what Catholics are talking about when we speak of the Trinity.

So you all must understand what we are saying when we speak of the Trinity and not say that we are speaking of the same thing because we are not. Your definition of the Trinity is not the same as the Catholic defintion of the Trinity.

Nor can you accuse me of being wrong, especially on a Catholic forum.

We can agree that we have two competing views of what the Trinity is.

Yes I understand… I didn’t submit it to be argumentative with you or competitive or to say you were “wrong”…just as piece of information as to what Baha’is believe in since this is the thread topic “Baha’i understanding of revelation”.

By the way I wondered if you wouldn’t mind sharing something about yourself…?

I noticed the name and appelation on your posts:

David, O.Carm.

Is “Carm.” short for Carmelite?

By the way… I wouldn’t call you a “Pharisee”.

• Art

 

[Usbek_de_Perse]

**If this Cause be of God, no man can prevail against it; and if it be not of God, the divines amongst you, and they that follow their corrupt desires and such as have rebelled against Him will surely suffice to overpower it. **(Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 220)

With due deference to Baha’u’llah, whom I continue to regard with respect, not all divines are corrupt. Most priests and ministers are dedicated, devoted, and selfless. My church is served by an able and dedicated priest who could earn 5 times his salary had he become a lawyer.

“…if it be not of God”, it would take honest and pure souls “to suffice to overpower it”.

I do not like seeing Christians in this forum speaking of the founders of religions they do not like with disrespect. It is unworthy of followers of Christ.

 

[Mickey]

I do not like seeing Christians in this forum speaking of the founders of religions they do not like with disrespect. It is unworthy of followers of Christ.

I suppose that depends on your definition of “disrespect”. Most here, do not recognize Baha’u’llah as a prophet. There is one truth–and He is the Way, the Truth, and the Light. When someone comes on a Christian forum propigating their cultish ideas and claiming that Jesus Christ is not God while posting streams and streams of long dissertations consisting Baha’i writings—then I say** that** is disrespectful.

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

With due deference to Baha’u’llah, whom I continue to regard with respect, not all divines are corrupt. .

Baha’u’llah agrees with you:

“Respect ye the divines and learned amongst you (Thuma
ihtramu’l `ulama binikum), they whose conduct accords with
their professions, who transgress not the bounds which God
hath fixed, whose judgments are in conformity with His
behests as revealed in His Book. Know ye that they are the
lamps of guidance unto them that are in the heavens and on
the earth. They who disregard and neglect the divines and
learned that live amongst them-- these have truly changed the
favor with which God hath favored them.”
(Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah 128)

Shoghi Effendi made a short compilation from Baha’u’llah’s writings to demonstrate that the Bahai Faith is not anti-clerical:

Nor should it be thought for a moment that the followers of
Baha’u’llah either seek to degrade or even belittle the rank of the
world’s religious leaders, whether Christian, Muslim, or of any other
denomination, should their conduct conform to their professions, and
be worthy of the position they occupy. “Those divines,” Baha’u’llah
has affirmed, “…who are truly adorned with the ornament of knowledge
and of a goodly character are, verily, as a head to the body of the
world, and as eyes to the nations. The guidance of men hath, at all
times, been and is dependent upon these blessed souls.” And again:
“The divine whose conduct is upright, and the sage who is just, are as
the spirit unto the body of the world. Well is it with that divine
whose head is attired with the crown of justice, and whose temple is
adorned with the ornament of equity.” And yet again: “The divine who
hath seized and quaffed the most holy Wine, in the name of the
sovereign Ordainer, is as an eye unto the world. Well is it with them
who obey him, and call him to remembrance.” “Great is the blessedness
of that divine,” He, in another connection, has written, “that hath
not allowed knowledge to become a veil between him and the One Who is
the Object of all knowledge, and who, when the Self-Subsisting
appeared, hath turned with a beaming face towards Him. He, in truth,
is numbered with the learned. The inmates of Paradise seek the
blessing of his breath, and his lamp sheddeth its radiance over all
who are in heaven and on earth. He, verily, is numbered with the
inheritors of the Prophets. He that beholdeth him hath, verily, beheld
the True One, and he that turneth towards him hath, verily, turned
towards God, the Almighty, the All-Wise.” “Respect ye the divines
amongst you,” is His exhortation, “They whose acts conform to the
knowledge they possess, who observe the statutes of God, and decree
the things God hath decreed in the Book. Know ye that they are the
lamps of guidance betwixt earth and heaven. They that have no
consideration for the position and merit of the divines amongst them
have, verily, altered the bounty of God vouchsafed unto them.” (The Promised Day is Come, p. 110)

 

[Usbek_de_Perse]

I suppose that depends on your definition of “disrespect”. Most here, do not recognize Baha’u’llah as a prophet. There is one truth–and He is the Way, the Truth, and the Light. When someone comes on a Christian forum propigating their cultish ideas and claiming that Jesus Christ is not God while posting streams and streams of long dissertations consisting Baha’i writings—then I say** that** is disrespectful.

I was thinking that perhaps something along the lines of the respect shown other religions by the Pontifical Council for Inter-religious Dialogue. Examine the website: vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/interelg/index.htm . It seems that Rome has set a high standard. Shouldn’t Christians, especially Catholics, follow it?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Yes I understand… I didn’t submit it to be argumentative with you or competitive or to say you were “wrong”…just as piece of information as to what Baha’is believe in since this is the thread topic “Baha’i understanding of revelation”.

I know you weren’t doing so. I understand that you were just giving some information and I am grateful for it.

By the way I wondered if you wouldn’t mind sharing something about yourself…?

I noticed the name and appelation on your posts:

David, O.Carm.

Is “Carm.” short for Carmelite?

By the way… I wouldn’t call you a “Pharisee”.

• Art

Yes, I am a Carmelite friar in formation. I am in simple vows and working though the formation program which will end with, first making solemn vows, then ordinations to the diaconate and then priesthood (God Willing).

I am currently in our internship program which occurs after one year of theological studies in the 4 year Masters of Divinity program.

I am currently assigned to our high school in Tucson, AZ, teaching in the Career and Technology department. This will be for 2 years (again, God Willing).

 

[Mickey]

I was thinking that perhaps something along the lines of the respect shown other religions by the Pontifical Council for Inter-religious Dialogue.

Rome also calls Catholics to defend the faith. I will try to read the link you provided. But if they are calling for “ecumenism”, I am guessing that it is not at the expense of accepting lies as the truth.

 

[Mickey]

It seems that Rome has set a high standard. Shouldn’t Christians, especially Catholics, follow it?

I think that Catholics (and all Christians) should be cordial and respectful of their brethren (including non-believers). Love thy neighbor includes everyone. But when the divinity of Jesus Christ (as God the Son) is being attacked, it is every Christian’s responsibility to expose this heresy. I do not consider that to be disrespectful—and neither did the great saints and martyrs of Sacred Tradition.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Rome also calls Catholics to defend the faith. I will try to read the link you provided. But if they are calling for “ecumenism”, I am guessing that it is not at the expense of accepting lies as the truth.

Ecumenism can only occur between Christian groups. Religious dialogue with no Christian groups is called Interreligious Dialogue.

 

[Usbek_de_Perse]

I think that Catholics (and all Christians) should be cordial and respectful of their brethren (including non-believers). Love thy neighbor includes everyone. But when the divinity of Jesus Christ (as God the Son) is being attacked, it is every Christian’s responsibility to expose this heresy. I do not consider that to be disrespectful—and neither did the great saints and martyrs of Sacred Tradition.

The divinity of Christ cannot be attacked. It is true, however, that both the Baha’i Faith and Islam revere Jesus without accepting Christian views of His divinity. I don’t think that is an attack. I would be the first to rise up should someone actually attack any aspect of any person of the Holy Trinity. These are sincere and good people who have different views.

And yes, as Br. David has said, ecumenism is an inter-Christian conversation. Interfaith conversations are quite different. The ultimate goal of ecumenism is Christian unity. The goal of Interfaith conversations (I hate the word dialogue when over used) is to promote amity between religions and to reduce tensions to the benefit of humanity.

 

[Mickey]

I don’t think that is an attack.

No? Ask them if they thinik Jesus Christ is God.

The goal of Interfaith conversations (I hate the word dialogue when over used) is to promote amity between religions and to reduce tensions to the benefit of humanity.

What do you mean by “promote amity between religions”?

 

[Usbek_de_Perse]

No? Ask them if they thinik Jesus Christ is God.
What do you mean by “promote amity between religions”?

I mean helping members of one religion from killing members of another. Helping to reduce tensions that occurr because of misunderstandings. Example: some wack-job Imam in a Muslim country decides that the Christians down the road are desecrating the Qur’an. He tells his buddies and they go down and burn, pillage, beat and kill some Christians. Or, some nut-case guru tells his fellow Hindus that a Hindu girl has been raped, kissed, flirted with, winked-at, whatever, by a Muslim, so the Hindus go down the road and kill some Muslims. Or some Christians get the idea that Jews are stealing blond Christian children for a blood sacrifice, so the Christians go crazy and burn down the Jewish quarter (as has happened often in Europe).

I was part of several interfaith groups in the 90s when I was a Baha’i. My friends included a Buddhist minister, a Catholic priest, a Unitarian minister, a number of nuns, not Catholic but Brahma Kumari. Fostering good relations is really quite essential for the survival of the planet.