Baha'i V

[Vouthon]

“Eternal” here translates azali, which is “beginingless,” the natural complement of “endless.” A more elegant translation of this pair is “eternal in the past, eternal in the future.” The following phrase is an exact parallel, it says “there is no first in him, there is no last in him.” It is not contradictory to say that God exists beyond time, and that God in time has no beginning or end. God is not shut out of the universe, but God is also not an existence in the universe.

Dear Sen,

Your translation skills certainly alleviate my uncertainty over “eternity”. So it means “beginning-less” rather than “eternal” (ie timeless). I had wondered initially whether this verse might indicate a difference in our understandings of what constituted “eternity” but it would appear that we do indeed understand the same by this word. It is simply a translation issue then.

I agree that God is not shut out of his Universe. Catholics believe in His “Omnipresence” which means His creative power that keeps every created essence in existence at all times and which is all in all.

 

[Vouthon]

Hi Vouthon,

Don’t you just love daler. I think after that praising invocation he has showered upon your person, there is no chance that you won’t be in heaven

I must say, this is an area of the Faith that I have little knowledge on. Let us learn together. My initial understanding is that:

A painter is not a painter until there is a painting.
A Creator is not a creator until there is a creation.
If the Creator is eternal, then there also must by default be an eternal creation, for before the creation, He was not the Creator. As you have said, HE did not “become” anything, HE IS IN HIMSELF

This is not to say that this eternal creation was and always has been the physical universe. My understanding stems from the fact that Baha’u’llah on multiple occasions refers to there being “infinite Worlds of God” and the Bab often in His Writings talks about “everything in the heavens and on the earth and whatsoever lieth between them”
My conclusion is that there is a HUGE amount more to this creation thing than what I can see, feel or understand.
The world of the womb is EVERYTHING to a fetus. While in there, there is no other knowledge, no other understanding, that is IT. In relative terms, this world is an infinite world, “in comparison to the world of the womb”

Logic dictates then, and Baha’u’llah confirms, that in proportional standards the world of the soul, the Kingdom of Abha is like an “eternity” in comparison to this world of dust and stars. For a start, there is no matter. What that means is almost impossible for us to discern, even words cannot describe it.

The experience of Renee Pasarow is a very interesting observation from a Baha’i point of view:

youtube.com/watch?v=qlFTanblpvg

As daler has said, when there is no form and no matter, timelessness becomes a lot easier to grasp.

I’ve quoted this before, and if thread readers don’t mind, I will quote again. In the Tablet of the Universe Abdu’l-Baha quotes:

---

‘God, exalted be He, fashioned one hundred thousand, thousand lamps and suspended the Throne, the earth, the heavens and whatsoever is between them, even Heaven and Hell – all of these in a single lamp. And only God knows what is in the rest of the lamps.’***

Abdu’l-Baha says that the universe has no beginning nor end. My understanding is that this is not necessarily a reference to the timeline of the universe but rather a reference to the space it occupies.

There is a school of thought in mathematics and physics which hypothesises that the universe has infinite cyclicals, known as conformal cyclic cosmology:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conformal_cyclic_cosmology

At the end of the day, we cannot really know for sure, but science is making great inroads into understanding the universe, but we must not for one second think that what science discovers is all that there is to Creation.

The Kingdom of Abha is where the real stuff happens, not here

Another great resource for deliberation is Julio Savi’s book “The Eternal Quest For God” which gives a great panorama on the extent of Baha’i Scripture on this matter

bahai-library.org/books/quest/

As with Daler, thank you for this post Servant. I will get back to you later when I have more time to comment

 

[Nick44]

As with Daler, thank you for this post Servant. I will get back to you later when I have more time to comment

So much to know and so little time. Thanks to all who have contributed on this thread. We exist. How stupendously exciting is that!!! And then to try to get our heads around such concepts as ‘beginning’, ‘forever’, ‘eternity’, etc, is challenge X 1M.

From the Writings of the Bab:

“All praise and glory befitteth the sacred and glorious court of the sovereign Lord, Who from everlasting hath dwelt, and unto everlasting will continue to dwell within the mystery of His Own divine Essence, Who from time immemorial hath abided and will forever continue to abide within His transcendent eternity, exalted above the reach and ken of all created beings. The sign of His matchless Revelation as created by Him and imprinted upon the realities of all beings, is none other but their powerlessness to know Him. The light He hath shed upon all things is none but the splendour of His Own Self. He Himself hath at all times been immeasurably exalted above any association with His creatures. He hath fashioned the entire creation in such wise that all beings may, by virtue of their innate powers, bear witness before God on the Day of Resurrection that He hath no peer or equal and is sanctified from any likeness, similitude or comparison. He hath been and will ever be one and incomparable in the transcendent glory of His divine being and He hath ever been indescribably mighty in the sublimity of His sovereign Lordship. No one hath ever been able befittingly to recognize Him nor will any man succeed at any time in comprehending Him as is truly meet and seemly, for any reality to which the term ‘being’ is applicable hath been created by the sovereign Will of the Almighty, Who hath shed upon it the radiance of His Own Self, shining forth from His most august station. He hath moreover deposited within the realities of all created things the emblem of His recognition, that everyone may know of a certainty that He is the Beginning and the End, the Manifest and the Hidden, the Maker and the Sustainer, the Omnipotent and the All-Knowing, the One Who heareth and perceiveth all things, He Who is invincible in His power and standeth supreme in His Own identity, He Who quickeneth and causeth to die, the All-Powerful, the Inaccessible, the Most Exalted, the Most High. Every revelation of His divine Essence betokens the sublimity of His glory, the loftiness of His sanctity, the inaccessible height of His oneness and the exaltation of His majesty and power. His beginning hath had no beginning other than His Own firstness and His end knoweth no end save His Own lastness.”

(The Báb, Selections from the Writings of the Báb, p. 110)

 

[eddie_too]

is there anything taught by bab or bahaullah that is necessary to do or believe for a man to be saved?

will not all men, according to bahaullah, progress eternally?

 

[SteveVH]

Steve,
These Pharisees were the authors of the doctrines of men, obviously, in hindsight. Do you agree?

No. They were servants to the law of Moses which no man could keep perfectly. Jesus came to fulfill the law and by so doing freed us from the law. The point being that men are not perfect and therefore cannot attain heaven by their own efforts in fulfilling the law. Jesus even told the people to listen to the Pharisees and do what they asked, but not to live as they lived. They were hypocrites who held the law over the people but could not keep it themselves.

And certain of the Popes, as you mention, were not immune from infallibility, yet the Church continued despite their error.

We are speaking of infallibility, daler, not impeccability. Even a sinful pope is protected from allowing error to enter into the Church’s dogmas and doctrines. Infallibility is very misunderstood by many. It has nothing to do with the worthiness of a person.

Maybe this will help you understand infallibility. If our Pope was asked to take a trigonometry test and answer 100 questions, how many questions should the Pope answer correctly if he was doing so infallibly? If he is acting under the charism of infallibility he should answer none of the questions because of the possibility that he might get even one wrong.

Do not let my example confuse you further. Please understand that the charism of infallibility only extends to matters of faith and morals (not trigonometry tests). I only use this example to demonstrate the negative character of the protection afforded the Church.

. It will no doubt be a test for some Baha’is in a thousand, or thousands of, years hence when, according to our theology, the next Manifestation of God appears, at which point, as with the appearance of every Prophet of God in the historical record, some fail to recognize the One Whom God sends to educate and uplift the hearts of men.

Are you trying to tell me that at present Baha’is are immune to the temptations of the world? That the current leaders are not subject to the same sinful maladies that affect all men? That they cannot become full of themselves due to their positions of power and authority?

. Should the members of the Universal House of Justice, for example, who are but elected administrators of the Baha’i Faith, fail at that time, one or all, to turn unto the Promised One of that Day, they, too, shall be held accountable before God, as have all in the past up until the present time.

. Those who are at the helm of the Institutions established by God possess a great responsibility to obey Him, and this cannot be done save through acknowledgement of His Messengers. As there is no other access to God but through His Divine Manifestations, they and those who follow them, will wander in the desert of remoteness from all eternity unto all eternity, should they fail in their task.

God sent many messengers to us, both men and angels. He revealed himself slowly, over time. Since Adam and Eve, men have been waiting for the promised One, the Messiah who would restore our relationship with God. And then God’s promise was fulfilled. God himself would come to earth and walk among us and reveal himself fully to us and give his own life that we might have the eternal life which had been lost through the sin of Adam and our own sins. This was Jesus Christ. To believe that we are in need of another is to deem Christ’s passion, death and Resurrection as insufficient. Why would we ever need more than God himself? The entire Baha’i notion of “Manifestations of God” is contrary to Christianity and is, in itself, a denial of the sufficiency Christ.

 

[SteveVH]

Hi Steve, I’ve missed a fair bit of this thread, and trying to catch up.

May I ask, did Jesus not change the conditions of adultery from the Mosaic Dispensation?
For the first time, He declared adultery as committed when a partner even “thinks” about another person in an inappropriate way.

Was this a declared Law within Judaism?

If you will remember, Jesus told them that Moses allowed divorce because of the hardness of their hearts, not God. The law given by Jesus against divorce applied only when one married another and therefore was more a law against adultery than divorce, per se. Jesus then goes on to reveal where the sin occurs; not only in the act of adultery, but in the heart of man when he even desires one who is not his wife. As well, he extended the law against murder to apply even to cursing another. He didn’t change the law, he expanded upon it to give us insight into our own hearts and to reveal where the offense against God occurs. In other words, I do not have to commit adultery in order to be guilty of it. I only have to desire it. I do not have to kill someone in order to be guilty, I merely have to wish them harm.

 

[Nick44]

is there anything taught by bab or bahaullah that is necessary to do or believe for a man to be saved?

will not all men, according to bahaullah, progress eternally?

Yes, all souls progress in the next life, but since our free will no longer exists if that world, that progression is strictly up to the permission of God alone, and exactly how that happens we don’t really know.

Baha’u’llah’s opening passage in His ‘Book of Laws’ dictates what is required to be ‘saved’:

The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of Divine inspiration.

 

[SteveVH]

The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation.

So Baha’u’llah claims that salvation is, first and foremost, a matter of recognizing himself. I’ll take my chances with Jesus, instead.

 

[eddie_too]

thanks nick44

why should a person believe that bahaullah is inspired by almighty God?

 

[rinnie]

Very simple dear rinnie

This is because the end of the age has come, and Baha’u’llah has heralded a new age, with new heaven and a new earth

If the end of the world has come, as you claim, they why is there still evil in the world. When the end of the world comes all evil is cast out,

Do you really believe that this is Heaven? Why if it is does it once again contradict the word of God. No more tears, suffering, death, sadness, hurt, evil. I am so confused by your teaching.

Do you really see no hate and violence in this world? Do you really think this is what heaven is?

 

[Nick44]

thanks nick44

why should a person believe that bahaullah is inspired by almighty God?

Our duty on Earth is to know and love God. Absent knowledge of the Manifetations, we would have no knowledge of God or His will for us. Baha’is believe that Baha’u’llah has brought the latest teachings from God., but each individual has to decide for themselves whether or not His claim is a valid one. His life, His teachings, and His spirit are sufficient ‘proof’ for me, but it’s called the Baha’i FAITH for a reason. An element of faith always exists in religious matters, otherwise, free will would be a joke.

Baha’u’llah also echos Jesus’ teaching that religious belief is a gift from God and that we are ‘allowed’ to see what others, because of their deeds, do not.

 

[Vouthon]

Our duty on Earth is to know and love God. Absent knowledge of the Manifetations, we would have no knowledge of God or His will for us.

Do Baha’is not believe in “conscience”? That is the God-given medium for discovering His will. It is precisely why people before the birth of Christ and many uncountable millions today who do not have explicit faith in Him, still have the possibility of salvation because they can adhere to the natural law that is written on the tablet of their heart.

That is why in his encyclical Blessed Pope Pius IX declared in Quanto conficiamur moerore of 10 August, 1863 addressed to the Italian bishops:

“…It is known to us and to you that **those who **are in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion, but who observe carefully the natural law, and the precepts graven by God upon the hearts of all men, and who being disposed to obey God lead an honest and upright life, may, aided by the light of divine grace, attain to eternal life; for God…sees clearly, searches and knows the heart, the disposition, the thoughts and intentions of each, in His supreme mercy and goodness…”

If you ever feel guilt over your own actions, you have heard God’s will and judgement. .

The church’s divinely revealed moral teachings serve as a guide to properly inform and heed one’s own conscience. Theoretically, a person can know much of God’s will without a prophetic figure to tell them.

There are certain aspects of supreme reality that one cannot detect simply through conscience and reason alone (such as the Mystery of the Most Holy Trinity). These need divine revelation however I cannot agree with you that we have “no way” of knowing God’s will for us without a Manifestation of that Will.

As the old Catholic Encyclopaedia (1913)

“…The Catholic Church has ever taught that nothing else is needed to obtain justification than an act of perfect charity and of contrition. Whoever, under the impulse of actual grace, elicits these acts receives immediately the gift of sanctifying grace, and is numbered among the children of God. Should he die in these dispositions, he will assuredly attain heaven…”

This is God’s will. Surely its accessible to conscience alone?

 

[Nick44]

Do Baha’is not believe in “conscience”?

Sure, but since there is no direct tie between God and His creation (except through His Manifestations) all that we know of what God desires us to do comes to us from Them. Actions that ‘conscience’ alone dictates differ between individuals. Why do we even know that it’s wrong to do, say, a.b.c.? Because God told us not to somewhere in our history. Someone who would say, “I’m a moral person who lives a good life so I don’t really need (a) God”, doesn’t realize that all of those moral values they profess have their genesis in a teaching that came from God, somewhere in the past.

Baha’u’llah does say that God implanted in man a faculty to help keep him on the proper path, but it’s easily dulled:

“Verily I say: The fear of God hath ever been a sure defence and a safe stronghold for all the peoples of the world. It is the chief cause of the protection of mankind, and the supreme instrument for its preservation. Indeed, there existeth in man a faculty which deterreth him from, and guardeth him against, whatever is unworthy and unseemly, and which is known as his sense of shame. This, however, is confined to but a few; all have not possessed and do not possess it”. (Tablets of Baha’u’llah, pg 63)

 

[Vouthon]

Actions that ‘conscience’ alone dictates differ between individuals. Why do we even know that it’s wrong to do, say, a.b.c.? Because God told us not to somewhere in our history. Someone who would say, “I’m a moral person who lives a good life so I don’t really need (a) God”, doesn’t realize that all of those moral values they profess have their genesis in a teaching that came from God, somewhere in the past.

I think that you misunderstand the Catholic doctrinal belief in the “primacy of conscience”. For us adherence to conscience is not a relativistic value, it is objective and universal.

It is crucial to understand the inherent distinction between “conscience” and personal opinion. Conscience lies at very heart of human nature. It is the faculty whereby we are encouraged and enabled to authentically seek the truth and to recognise the objective demands of God’s moral law:

“…Deep within their conscience human persons discover a law which they have not laid upon themselves but which they must obey. Its voice, ever calling them to love and to do what is good and avoid evil, tells them inwardly at the right moment: do this, shun that. For human persons have in their hearts a law inscribed by God… the more a correct conscience prevails, the more do persons and groups turn aside from blind choice and try to be guided by the objective standards of moral conduct…”

- Second Vatican Council, The Church in the Modern World (1965), s27

Baha’u’llah does say that God implanted in man a faculty to help keep him on the proper path, but it’s easily dulled:

On this point then, I fully agree with Baha’u’llah. Conscience ‘can’ and often does err, becoming dulled by ignorance but without losing in any way its dignity. This is still distinct from “personal opinion” since a person adhering to an erroneous conscience is still searching after and seeking to faithfully obey the truth (he merely misjudges what the law of God present to his conscience really is), whereas “personal opinion” is arbitrary and can be used to defend any action or belief irrespective of what conscience tells us deep down:

“…It often happens that conscience goes astray through ignorance which it is unable to avoid, without thereby losing its dignity. This cannot be said of the person who takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin…”

- Second Vatican Council, The Church in the Modern World (1965), s27

Catholics believe that we can learn how to properly inform and read our conscience through human reason and divine revelation guided by Holy Mother Church.

 

[Vouthon]

To any one of our Baha’i friends, I have a question:

**Do Baha’is expect to have direct and unmediated access to God in the life to come, without the need for a Manifestation or Divine Messenger to act as an intermediary between individual souls and God? **

In this life, knowledge of God and access to Him is mediated through the Manifestation. Shoghi Effendi even recommended Baha’is to “pray” to Baha’u’llah, in the sense of intercessory prayer, since He is the only means of truly “seeing” God in a manner cognizable to human minds.

Does this mediated access end upon death or extend into the spiritual afterlife?

 

[eddie_too]

it is puzzling that none of the manifestations prior to bahaullah knew they were manifestations as bahaullah has defined the term.

 

[tonyfish58]

To any one of our Baha’i friends, I have a question:

**Do Baha’is expect to have direct and unmediated access to God in the life to come, without the need for a Manifestation or Divine Messenger to act as an intermediary between individual souls and God? **

In this life, knowledge of God and access to Him is mediated through the Manifestation. Shoghi Effendi even recommended Baha’is to “pray” to Baha’u’llah, in the sense of intercessory prayer, since He is the only means of truly “seeing” God in a manner cognizable to human minds.

Does this mediated access end upon death or extend into the spiritual afterlife?

Vouthon - I am an inadequate servant to attempt to answer your questions. I have marveled at the past threads which are above of my depth.

As I understand it there can/will be not direct tie between the Servant and His Creator, it can only be done through the Mediator/Manifestation. How it all works?

This is a topic that there are many many writings about, as do the previous topics, there is no question that is not answered. Link - reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-27.html

This extract is the answer I would say, the whole tablet worth reading.

"…And since there can be no tie of direct intercourse to bind the one true God with His creation, and no resemblance whatever can exist between the transient and the Eternal, the contingent and the Absolute, He hath ordained that in every age and dispensation a pure and stainless Soul be made manifest in the kingdoms of earth and heaven. Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself. To this testifieth the tradition: “Manifold and mysterious is My relationship with God. I am He, Himself, and He is I, Myself, except that I am that I am, and He is that He is.”… Baha’u’llah Gleamings form the writings of Baha’u’llah

I guess my Faith is more from the heart than Knowledge, I see the love in the religions and see no reason that any body on this earth can claim to have a greater love for God than another. But that is another story

We are discussing things that are of interest, but IMHO something we will never fully know while we live this life on Earth. The immensity is far far beyond our current capacity.

Regards Tony

 

[Vouthon]

Vouthon - I am an inadequate servant to attempt to answer your questions. I have marveled at the past threads which are above of my depth.

Bless you Tony. Your humility is a striking exemplar

As I understand it there can/will be not direct tie between the Servant and His Creator, it can only be done through the Mediator/Manifestation. How it all works?

I would agree, I was merely curious as to whether this is considered to be something indefinite and perpetual - ie inherent in the order of creation - or whether it is more a reality in the earthly world.

This is a topic that there are many many writings about, as do the previous topics, there is no question that is not answered. Link - reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-27.html

Thank you for the link brother. I will read it with great interest

I guess my Faith is more from the heart than Knowledge

Then your faith is of the right constitution and nature. Love is the “astrolabe of God’s mysteries” as the Sufi mystic Jalaluddin Rumi said.

We are discussing things that are of interest, but IMHO something we will never fully know while we live this life on Earth. The immensity is far far beyond our current capacity.

Beyond doubt my friend. Well put.

 

[tonyfish58]

I think that you misunderstand the Catholic doctrinal belief in the “primacy of conscience”. For us adherence to conscience is not a relativistic value, it is objective and universal.

It is crucial to understand the inherent distinction between “conscience” and personal opinion. Conscience lies at very heart of human nature. It is the faculty whereby we are encouraged and enabled to authentically seek the truth and to recognise the objective demands of God’s moral law:

On this point then, I fully agree with Baha’u’llah. Conscience ‘can’ and often does err, becoming dulled by ignorance but without losing in any way its dignity. This is still distinct from “personal opinion” since a person adhering to an erroneous conscience is still searching after and seeking to faithfully obey the truth (he merely misjudges what the law of God present to his conscience really is), whereas “personal opinion” is arbitrary and can be used to defend any action or belief irrespective of what conscience tells us deep down:

Catholics believe that we can learn how to properly inform and read our conscience through human reason and divine revelation guided by Holy Mother Church.

Vouthon - The way I understand it is that every body has the capacity to know and Love God. I have not studied this in any way, but logically it could be no other way. I would assume that this is what you are discussing “primacy of conscience”.

Given that this is the case, then we will all be judged on the actions we have or have not taken in this life to fulfill that capacity. To me this is the bounty of Free Will. Without Free Will we could not know or have the Capacity to obtain to this Knowledge/Love of God

This is a funny Life, the Greatest Lovers of God have suffered the most. I marvel at this world of Opposites. Consider that it is a world of extremes and each of these opposites are actually complementary? You could not have one without the other! Here is a little thing I wrote some time ago thinking about this issue

Heartache, Happiness,
Agony, Ecstasy,
Sorrow, Joy.
Loneliness, Reunion.
Darkness, Light.
Concealed, Revealed.
Opposites attract,
negatives highlight positives.
Pain brings happiness,
tribulation brings Joy.
Oh God may this life be full of negatives,
so we can learn to appreciate the positives.

As you know, God loves all His Creatures, so must we. There will be no excuses for having fallen short and we all fall short IMHO.

Regards Tony

 

[Nick44]

Do Baha’is expect to have direct and unmediated access to God in the life to come, without the need for a Manifestation or Divine Messenger to act as an intermediary between individual souls and God?

God (Essence) always requires a mediator both here and ‘there’. This is along the lines of trying to explain sight and colors to one born blind. Where are the words? My opinion only: The Manifestations are as far ‘above’ us as God in His Essence is ‘above’ Them, both In this world and in the next, They rule the Kingdom of God/Abha Kingdom, They are as ‘close’ to God as we’ll ever ‘get’ and that ‘getting’ lasts forever. Baha’u’llah writes that the Essence of God will eternally only be comprehended by Himself:

“So perfect and comprehensive is His creation that no mind nor heart, however keen or pure, can ever grasp the nature of the most insignificant of His creatures; much less fathom the mystery of Him Who is the Day Star of Truth, Who is the invisible and unknowable Essence. The conceptions of the devoutest of mystics, the attainments of the most accomplished amongst men, the highest praise which human tongue or pen can render are all the product of man’s finite mind and are conditioned by its limitations. Ten thousand Prophets, each a Moses, are thunderstruck upon the Sinai of their search at His forbidding voice, “Thou shalt never behold Me!”; whilst a myriad Messengers, each as great as Jesus, stand dismayed upon their heavenly thrones by the interdiction, “Mine Essence thou shalt never apprehend!” 63 From time immemorial He hath been veiled in the ineffable sanctity of His exalted Self, and will everlastingly continue to be wrapt in the impenetrable mystery of His unknowable Essence. Every attempt to attain to an understanding of His inaccessible Reality hath ended in complete bewilderment, and every effort to approach His exalted Self and envisage His Essence hath resulted in hopelessness and failure.” (Gleanings pg 62-63)