Baha'i V

[NoWings]

Nope that’s not what it means at all. You want to discuss it, but the current area if conversation is on a different topic, plus we are delving quite deeply into it…

You can study these two links and go ahead and start a thread on the Bahai Covenant and we will be happy to answe any questions:

youtu.be/U9qt7xtcUcg

youtu.be/bPN22L-LphY

LOL. Again, you pretend the issues aren’t there and instead of offering a rebuttal, you pretend that this thread is for a specific topic. This thread and the last four have been from one side to the other with what’s being discussed, but my particular criticism is off-topic? I’m not starting another thread. That’s what this very thread is for.

As usual, you guys would rather ignore perfectly valid criticisms with your faith instead of offering reasons why the things I posted are incorrect. You all are going to have to learn to actually debate your beliefs with people instead of showing and trying to play nice with everyone.

 

[Red_Sox_1]

i would like to know what unique and new revelation bahaullah provided to mankind.

I think like Christianity, the Baha’i Faith is also Person-Centric. Much as what is defined as “New” in Christianity that did not exist before Christ, focusing only on the Semitic prophets of the Hebrew Bible to simplify comprehension of this point. the same is defined as “New” in the Baha’i Revelation.

Here are some example verses from Baha’u’llah’s writings that identify the “Most Great Name” or “Most Great Spirit” as the New feature that appears in this Revelation that was hidden in the past Revelation of Jesus Christ. Here I will focus only on the Most Great Name, perhaps later we can look at the Most Great Spirit.

“This is His Most Great Name, His Most Exalted Word, and the Dayspring of His Most Excellent Titles, if ye could understand. Nay more, through Him every Fountainhead, every Dawning-place of Divine guidance is made manifest.”

“Let your joy be the joy born of My Most Great Name, a Name that bringeth rapture to the heart, and filleth with ecstasy the minds of all who have drawn nigh unto God. We, verily, have made music as a ladder for your souls, a means whereby they may be lifted up unto the realm on high; make it not, therefore, as wings to self and passion.”

"By Thy Most Great Name, O Thou Lord of all nations! "

“Thou seest, then, O Thou Who art the Beloved of the world and the Revealer of the Most Great Name, how He hath come down with the kingdom of His signs, and in a manner that hath caused the atoms of the earth to testify that the whole world hath been filled with these signs.”

“I beseech Thee, by Thy Most Great Name, to raise in every city a new creation that shall turn towards Thee, and shall remember Thee amidst Thy servants, and shall unfurl by virtue of their utterances and wisdom the ensigns of Thy victory, and shall detach themselves from all created things.”

“I entreat Thee, by Thy Most Great Name, Whom Thou hast appointed as the unerring Balance among the nations, and Thine infallible Proof unto all men, not to forsake me, nor to abandon me to my corrupt desires.”

“I implore Thee, by Thy Most Great Name, and Thy most ancient sovereignty, to look upon Thy loved ones whose hearts have been sorely shaken by reason of the troubles that have touched Him Who is the Manifestation of Thine own Self.”

“From eternity the tokens of Thy bounty have encompassed the universe, and the splendors of Thy Most Great Name have been shed over all created things.”

“Send down, then, O my God, through Thy Most Great Name, upon Thy loved ones what will, under all conditions, draw them nearer unto Thee.”

“It behoveth you, in this day, to proclaim aloud the Most Great Name among the nations.”

"Walk thou high above the world of being through the power of the Most Great Name, that thou mayest become aware of the immemorial mysteries and be acquainted with that wherewith no one is acquainted. "

“And the knowledge of the King of everlasting days can in no wise be attained save by recognizing Him Who is the Bearer of the Most Great Name. He is, in truth, the Speaker on Sinai Who is now seated upon the throne of Revelation.”

 

[Red_Sox_1]

As usual, you guys would rather ignore perfectly valid criticisms with your faith instead of offering reasons why the things I posted are incorrect. You all are going to have to learn to actually debate your beliefs with people instead of showing and trying to play nice with everyone.

Dear NoWings, What would you like me to address that I haven’t already addressed?

 

[Red_Sox_1]

that was my final line in the post,Jesus was man and divine…
the son of God…
you have not answered nothing in theat post…
how can a mere man full of sin think he is above God??
you are bringing nothing new its all been done before…

Hi, Here is how I would answer this using quotes from Baha’u’llah. These are definitely new things :

The first Tajallí which hath dawned from the Day-Star of Truth is the knowledge of God—exalted be His glory. And the knowledge of the King of everlasting days can in no wise be attained save by recognizing Him Who is the Bearer of the Most Great Name [Baha’u’llah]. He is, in truth, the Speaker on Sinai [Baha’u’llah] Who is now seated upon the throne of Revelation. He is the Hidden Mystery and the Treasured Symbol. All the former and latter Books of God are adorned with His praise and extol His glory. Through Him the standard of knowledge hath been planted in the world and the ensign of the oneness of God hath been unfurled amidst all peoples. Attainment unto the Divine Presence can be realized solely by attaining His presence. Through His potency everything that hath, from time immemorial, been veiled and hidden, is now revealed. He is made manifest through the power of Truth and hath uttered a Word whereby all that are in the heavens and on the earth have been dumbfounded, except those whom the Almighty was pleased to exempt. True belief in God and recognition of Him cannot be complete save by acceptance of that which He hath revealed and by observance of whatsoever hath been decreed by Him and set down in the Book by the Pen of Glory.

The fourth Tajallí is concerning Divinity, Godhead and the like. Were a man of insight to direct his gaze towards the blessed, the manifest Lote-Tree and its fruits, he would be so enriched thereby as to be independent of aught else and to acknowledge his belief in that which the Speaker on Sinai [Baha’u’llah] hath uttered from the throne of Revelation.

 

[daler]

red sox,

save the body of the planet earth from what?

Eddie,
. Among other things, that which we are doing through the misuse of chemicals, coal, CO2, methane, nuclear, etc come to mind

Bahá’u’lláh wrote:

“Strange and astonishing things exist in the earth but they are hidden from the minds and the understanding of men. These things are capable of changing the whole atmosphere of the earth and their contamination would prove lethal.”

(Bahá’u’lláh, Kalímát-i-Firdawsíyyih (Words of Paradise), c.1879–91)

 

[daler]

i would like to know what unique and new revelation bahaullah provided to mankind.

Eddie,
. Some of what Baha’u’llah revealed is the Essence of that which has been revealed in the past:

. "He is the Glory of Glories.

. This is that which hath descended from the realm of glory, uttered by the tongue of power and might, and revealed unto the Prophets of old. We have taken the inner essence thereof and clothed it in the garment of brevity, as a token of grace unto the righteous, that they may stand faithful unto the Covenant of God, may fulfill in their lives His trust, and in the realm of spirit obtain the gem of Divine virtue."

. As to what is new is in part the fulfillment of that which was prophesied, for example, by Jeremiah in Chapter 49:

34 The word of the Lord that came to Jeremiah the prophet against Elam, in the beginning of the reign of Zedekiah king of Judah, saying,
35 “Thus says the Lord of hosts:
‘Behold, I will break the bow of Elam,
The foremost of their might.
36 Against Elam I will bring the four winds
From the four quarters of heaven,
And scatter them toward all those winds;
There shall be no nations where the outcasts of Elam will not go.
37 For I will cause Elam to be dismayed before their enemies
And before those who seek their life.
I will bring disaster upon them,
My fierce anger,’ says the Lord;
‘And I will send the sword after them
Until I have consumed them.
38 I will set My throne in Elam,
And will destroy from there the King and the Princes,’ says the Lord.
39 ‘But it shall come to pass in the latter days:
I will bring back the captives of Elam,’ says the Lord.”

. “Elam” is the SW portion of Persia, or modern day Iran, where the Bab declared His Mission, announcing the soon coming of Baha’u’llah, also from Persia. The “outcasts” of Elam are the Baha’is, having been exiled from Persia, now found in every nation. Never has this occurred in the past, but is fulfilled at this time. All this stuff going on yet today in the Middle East is a result of the reaction against the Bab and Baha’u’llah. Its all playing out, as was prophesied.

Wikipedia article addressing the King and the Princes destroyed:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahá’%C3%AD_prophecies

.

 

[tonyfish58]

LOL. Again, you pretend the issues aren’t there and instead of offering a rebuttal, you pretend that this thread is for a specific topic. This thread and the last four have been from one side to the other with what’s being discussed, but my particular criticism is off-topic? I’m not starting another thread. That’s what this very thread is for.

As usual, you guys would rather ignore perfectly valid criticisms with your faith instead of offering reasons why the things I posted are incorrect. You all are going to have to learn to actually debate your beliefs with people instead of showing and trying to play nice with everyone.

It is ignored as it is not valid criticism!

Finding garbage on the net does not make it truth or even valid.

As stated the Covenant is clear and can not be broken. This does not mean individuals will not try. But these attempts are doomed to failure, they will provide no lasting results.

Any Person can post a site on the net and make it look big and grand, but when you look behind the site you may find a couple of unhappy people.

There is nothing out there that could be classes as a functional alternate Baha’i Faith and there will not be!

Regards Tony

 

[tonyfish58]

Power of the Covernant of Baha’u’llah.

I think one of the greatest proofs of this Faiths ability to unite mankind is in the Storms and Tests that were waged against it as it emerged as a Religion in its own right.

These storms raged from within and from outside and all the storms only afflicted superficial damage that was or will soon be repaired!

This is the way of the world and this is the way of Faith. Out of the intense heat of fire comes the previous metals and gems.

While the fires still rage, so do the metals and gems become more beautiful.

Regards Tony

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

Hi, i think you are correct Sen. I meant attachment to the body is the source of sin and error, not that the physical world by essence is evil. For evil, cold, and darkness are the absence of good, heat, and light. Do you have a problem with this formulation as well?

It is too narrow: “attachment to the things of this world” would be better. Many of the attachments that lead us astray are not physical, but are of this world.

Even that is not broad enough to cover everything, for “the good deeds of the faithful are the sins of the near ones.” One could be attached to the idea of achieving a high spiritual station, and so do good things not for their own sake but for what is essentially an ego thing. “Make not your deeds as snares wherewith to entrap the object of your aspiration, and deprive not yourselves of this Ultimate Objective for which have ever yearned all such as have drawn nigh unto God.” (Baha’u’llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 31).

So how about “attachment to anything save God is the source of sin and error.”

 

[doormouse73]

Hi, Here is how I would answer this using quotes from Baha’u’llah. These are definitely new things :

The first Tajallí which hath dawned from the Day-Star of Truth is the knowledge of God—exalted be His glory. And the knowledge of the King of everlasting days can in no wise be attained save by recognizing Him Who is the Bearer of the Most Great Name [Baha’u’llah]. He is, in truth, the Speaker on Sinai [Baha’u’llah] Who is now seated upon the throne of Revelation. He is the Hidden Mystery and the Treasured Symbol. All the former and latter Books of God are adorned with His praise and extol His glory. Through Him the standard of knowledge hath been planted in the world and the ensign of the oneness of God hath been unfurled amidst all peoples. Attainment unto the Divine Presence can be realized solely by attaining His presence. Through His potency everything that hath, from time immemorial, been veiled and hidden, is now revealed. He is made manifest through the power of Truth and hath uttered a Word whereby all that are in the heavens and on the earth have been dumbfounded, except those whom the Almighty was pleased to exempt. True belief in God and recognition of Him cannot be complete save by acceptance of that which He hath revealed and by observance of whatsoever hath been decreed by Him and set down in the Book by the Pen of Glory.

The fourth Tajallí is concerning Divinity, Godhead and the like. Were a man of insight to direct his gaze towards the blessed, the manifest Lote-Tree and its fruits, he would be so enriched thereby as to be independent of aught else and to acknowledge his belief in that which the Speaker on Sinai [Baha’u’llah] hath uttered from the throne of Revelation.

With al due respect, please stop rambling and show me what has been surpassed in Jesus Christ,

 

[Servant19]

With al due respect, please stop rambling and show me what has been surpassed in Jesus Christ,

Hi doormouse,

I think what Red Sox is drawing your attention towards is the Person of Baha’u’llah who is the Person of the Father. Jesus prayed to Baha’u’llah upon the Cross.
Moses heard the Voice of Baha’u’llah at the Burning Bush

As the quote Red Sox gave said:

"Were a man of insight to direct his gaze towards the blessed, the manifest Lote-Tree and its fruits, he would be so enriched thereby as to be independent of aught else and to acknowledge his belief in that which the Speaker on Sinai [Baha’u’llah] hath uttered from the throne of Revelation."

…to me this means that the Person of Baha’u’llah being the Person of the Father is what is new about the Baha’i Religion.

All the Prophets of the Adamic Cycle of religions (Adam through to Moses, Jesus and Muhammad) were guided by the Person of Baha’u’llah culminating in His Cycle of Fulfillment which is the current Age in which we live in, the Baha’i Cycle

God bless

 

[Red_Sox_1]

With al due respect, please stop rambling and show me what has been surpassed in Jesus Christ,

Hi,

I’m really not trying to make a big deal or avoid answering your question. It’s literally as simple as the person of Bahaullah is “new” because he was hidden and not visible in the time of Jesus. That’s all…

 

[Red_Sox_1]

So how about “attachment to anything save God is the source of sin and error.”

Thanks Dr Sen McGlinn, yes sounds good to me.

 

[eddie_too]

how is the person of bahaullah new in any metaphysical sense?

everything about bahaullah, his teachings, his life, his writings, his children, his wealth, his death have similarity to every other human being who ever lived.

when you state it is the very existence of bahaullah that is new, a logical response is that the existence of every human being is new. every human being has a unique existence.

bahulah taught nothing new. bahaullah live a life that did nothing new. bahaullah did write original words, as did every other human author.

what makes the person of bahuallah different from other human beings who have lived?

 

[arthra]

how is the person of bahaullah new in any metaphysical sense?

everything about bahaullah, his teachings, his life, his writings, his children, his wealth, his death have similarity to every other human being who ever lived.

when you state it is the very existence of bahaullah that is new, a logical response is that the existence of every human being is new. every human being has a unique existence.

bahulah taught nothing new. bahaullah live a life that did nothing new. bahaullah did write original words, as did every other human author.

what makes the person of bahuallah different from other human beings who have lived?

Eddie wrote:

“…bahaullah live a life that did nothing new. bahaullah did write original words, as did every other human author.”

My comments:

I don’t know anyone who has endured four months in a dark pit without much food and lived to tell about it…

I don’t know anyone who willingly gave up security and affluence and was exiled for the rest of their life and was sent to a prison fortress for the Cause of God and survived…

I don’t know anyone who had impressions of the weight of heavy chains on their body the rest of their lives…

I don’t know anyone who addressed the rulers of their day from a prison city…

I don’t know anyone who revealed a hundred volumes of the Word of God while in the custody of the Sultan of the Ottoman Empire…

unless it was … Baha’u’llah.

 

[Red_Sox_1]

how is the person of bahaullah new in any metaphysical sense?

everything about bahaullah, his teachings, his life, his writings, his children, his wealth, his death have similarity to every other human being who ever lived.

when you state it is the very existence of bahaullah that is new, a logical response is that the existence of every human being is new. every human being has a unique existence.

what makes the person of bahuallah different from other human beings who have lived?

Hi Eddie,

I mean his appearance is new, meaning that he hadn’t appeared in a visible way as himself (think intensity) before the natural birth of Baha’u’llah’s human body, though he did exist without a human form prior to the birth of Mirza Husayn Ali. As Bahaullah says he communicated with the Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, etc and the Bab. He goes so far as saying that every page of their Revelations mentions Him and gives Him praise (I don’t mean His physical body).

 

[eddie_too]

but, the real question is what did bahaullah add to the teachings of Jesus Christ.

the bahai response to this question is that bahaullah added to the teachings of Jesus Christ by existing.

my biggest problem with this assertion is why believe that bahaullah’s existence is unique and new?

what about bahaullah has never before been revealed to mankind?

like i said, every human beings existence is unique and has never before been revealed to mankind, so that is not an answer to my question.

many human beings have written insightful words, glorious words, beautiful words, wise words, meaningful words, so the writing of bahaullah may be the same, but that is nothing new to mankind.

many human beings have suffered for their beliefs. some, far more than bahaullah. so, bahaullah’s sufferings are nothing new to mankind.

many human beings have spoken truth to power. so, bahaullah’s confronting worldly authorities is nothing new to mankind.

the one Jesus promised is to provide insight in to the teachings of Jesus that the apostles were not prepared intellectually and psychologically prepared to understand.

Jesus prayed that all might be one. so, saying that the mankind should be united adds nothing to the teachings of Jesus.

throughout the bible, in both the old and new testaments, stewardship of God’s creation is prescribed. so that is nothing new from bahaullah.

the idea that the existence of bahaullah adds something new to the world is true of every human being, so his existence is nothing new.

what is it about bahaullah’s existence that had never before been revealed and how does this new revelation add a new understanding to the life and teachings of Jesus Christ?

 

[Red_Sox_1]

Hi Eddie,

I mean his appearance is new, meaning that he hadn’t appeared in a visible way as himself (think intensity) before the natural birth of Baha’u’llah’s human body, though he did exist without a human form prior to the birth of Mirza Husayn Ali. As Bahaullah says he communicated with the Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, etc and the Bab. He goes so far as saying that every page of their Revelations mentions Him and gives Him praise (I don’t mean His physical body).

One of Baha’u’llah’s titles is “Revealer of Books and Sender of Messengers.” By this is meant that He sent the Revelations to the Manifestations, and He sent His own Revelation to Himself.

 

[eddie_too]

One of Baha’u’llah’s titles is “Revealer of Books and Sender of Messengers.” By this is meant that He sent the Revelations to the Manifestations, and He sent His own Revelation to Himself.

and i should believe this self-referential proclamation is true, why?

how is it essentially different from the same self-proclamations of a myriad of wannabe incarnations?

joseph smith said the same thing. mohammed said the same thing. jim jones said the same thing. david koresh said the same thing. and, the list goes on and on.

people say all kinds of things about themselves and others. saying something does not make it true.

why believe bahaullah’s self-referential statements are true?

and, like i asked earlier, what did bahaullah reveal that had not been previously revealed and if you can find something to answer that question, how did bahaullah’s revelations complete the revelation of Jesus Christ or add more understanding to Jesus’ life and teachings?

i think the bahais’ struggles to answer this question reveals why i reject bahaullah as being inspired by my Creator.

 

[Red_Sox_1]

why believe bahaullah’s self-referential statements are true?

Hi, will address new things later… But first –

Although as you say these are self-referential in a metaphysical sense, these Titles and qualities were anticipated and assigned by the Bab to Bahaullah.

The Bab came to announce the imminent appearance of Bahaullah, and Bahaullah even says that He would have kept Himself hidden if the Bab hadn’t announced Him.

Much like John the Baptist who ascribed Messiahship to the One who came after him (ie Jesus)