Baha'i V

[SteveVH]

Hi, will address new things later… But first –

Although as you say these are self-referential in a metaphysical sense, these Titles and qualities were anticipated and assigned by the Bab to Bahaullah.

The Bab came to announce the imminent appearance of Bahaullah, and Bahaullah even says that He would have kept Himself hidden if the Bab hadn’t announced Him.

Much like John the Baptist who ascribed Messiahship to the One who came after him (ie Jesus)

 

[SteveVH]

I have been away for a day or two and just came back and caught up on the recent posts. It occurs to me that this thread has made no more progress than the first Baha’i thread. It is simply a merry-go-round and I think its time that I step off. It has become a pointless conversation and I cannot bear to hack my way through another quote from Baha’u’llah in place of a simple, reasoned response.

 

[doormouse73]

I have been away for a day or two and just came back and caught up on the recent posts. It occurs to me that this thread has made no more progress than the first Baha’i thread. It is simply a merry-go-round and I think its time that I step off. It has become a pointless conversation and I cannot bear to hack my way through another quote from Baha’u’llah in place of a simple, reasoned response.

Amen to that

 

[Red_Sox_1]

I have been away for a day or two and just came back and caught up on the recent posts. It occurs to me that this thread has made no more progress than the first Baha’i thread. It is simply a merry-go-round and I think its time that I step off. It has become a pointless conversation and I cannot bear to hack my way through another quote from Baha’u’llah in place of a simple, reasoned response.

I thought I was being as transparent and simple as possible using my own words and my own logic. Maybe I made a mistake by providing quotes to backup my personal logic… Sorry.

 

[SteveVH]

I thought I was being as transparent and simple as possible using my own words and my own logic. Maybe I made a mistake by providing quotes to backup my personal logic… Sorry.

This has nothing to do with you personally. It is the tone of the entire thread.

 

[Red_Sox_1]

This has nothing to do with you personally. It is the tone of the entire thread.

Okay, understood… I’ll chill out for now.

 

[tonyfish58]

I think all questions have been answered and as to the remarks that Baha’u’llah has offered nothing new to mankind, well that has been more than amply demonstrated He has.

But one must want to see this. Who has Claimed to bring a message from God and then told us we all worship the same God. That all true religion is from that same God in such plain language? If it was Christ, then would not the Koran and Muhammad be as Important to a Christian as Christ is?

This is just one of the obvious new teachings for mankind and when one opens their eyes to the unity of God and this gift of unity to mankind, all the other new concepts also become apparent.

It appears that this thread is now winding down - God bless all and may we all let go of our pre-conceived learning and embrace God with new eyes and new ears

Regards Tony

 

[tonyfish58]

but, the real question is what did bahaullah add to the teachings of Jesus Christ.

the bahai response to this question is that bahaullah added to the teachings of Jesus Christ by existing.

my biggest problem with this assertion is why believe that bahaullah’s existence is unique and new?

what about bahaullah has never before been revealed to mankind?

like i said, every human beings existence is unique and has never before been revealed to mankind, so that is not an answer to my question.

many human beings have written insightful words, glorious words, beautiful words, wise words, meaningful words, so the writing of bahaullah may be the same, but that is nothing new to mankind.

many human beings have suffered for their beliefs. some, far more than bahaullah. so, bahaullah’s sufferings are nothing new to mankind.

many human beings have spoken truth to power. so, bahaullah’s confronting worldly authorities is nothing new to mankind.

the one Jesus promised is to provide insight in to the teachings of Jesus that the apostles were not prepared intellectually and psychologically prepared to understand.

Jesus prayed that all might be one. so, saying that the mankind should be united adds nothing to the teachings of Jesus.

throughout the bible, in both the old and new testaments, stewardship of God’s creation is prescribed. so that is nothing new from bahaullah.

the idea that the existence of bahaullah adds something new to the world is true of every human being, so his existence is nothing new.

what is it about bahaullah’s existence that had never before been revealed and how does this new revelation add a new understanding to the life and teachings of Jesus Christ?

Eddie - I posted an answer above then shut off the tablet to go to work

Then I realised how slow I am in as to why you could not accept that any new concept has been given.

Given the Churches outlook on other religions, if you accepted that Baha’u’llah actually did give a new concept to mankind, then that would tear at the very foundation of your belief!

May God bless, the Love of God is not quite so clear cut as we might like it to be

Regards Tony

 

[Lochias]

Given the Churches outlook on other religions, if you accepted that Baha’u’llah actually did give a new concept to mankind, then that would tear at the very foundation of your belief!

If I accepted that dancing penguins in tutus gave new concepts to mankind, that would tear at the very foundation of my belief, too. However, neither dancing penguins nor the Baha’u’llah have any kind of reasonable logic to indicate that they offer anything new or substantial to the Church that Jesus left us all.

 

[eddie_too]

bahaullah, Who has Claimed to bring a message from God and then told us we all worship the same God.

interesting such an assertion. it would make sense if bahaullah had said there is only One God.

but, it does not make sense to say we all worship the same God when the mormons mean a created man who perfected himself when they refer to God. the christians worship three divine persons with one divine substance. the zen budhhist refer to no god, but the loss of self. the muslims refer to one God and not three persons. the hindu worship man gods as do those who practice the ancient nordic religions, albeit the gods are not designated the same by the two different practices.

saying all religions worship the same god is to delude oneself, pure and simple.

christians worship Jesus Christ as their one God. no one else does that.

so, just as a flying purple people eater is the construction of a new concept, so is this idea that all religions worship the same god. it is a completely imaginary construction.

it is as if bahaullah had no idea about the natures of the gods of the many different religions when he constructed his idea that all religions worship the same god.

it would certainly be news to those of judaism. the God they worshipped made it quite clear that the jews should not worship any other gods.

 

[Servant19]

[BIBLEDRB][/BIBLEDRB]

Okay, understood… I’ll chill out for now.

No you don’t need to chill out at all Red Sox

Not at all!!

If Steve can’t handle where this is going, that’s his decision

We are just getting to the best part of the thread, the absolute best part of ALL the threads in CAF…

 

[Servant19]

Hi, will address new things later… But first –

Although as you say these are self-referential in a metaphysical sense, these Titles and qualities were anticipated and assigned by the Bab to Bahaullah.

The Bab came to announce the imminent appearance of Bahaullah, and Bahaullah even says that He would have kept Himself hidden if the Bab hadn’t announced Him.

Much like John the Baptist who ascribed Messiahship to the One who came after him (ie Jesus)

THIS…

 

[Servant19]

Like children, mankind was spellbound and attracted by the miracles of The Lord in His various human forms…

The Bab was the final Mouthpiece of God from the Cycle of miracles. His life mirrored Jesus’s.

Today, we have reached our maturity…we finally know what to do

 

[Red_Sox_1]

Hi, will address new things later… But first –

Although as you say these are self-referential in a metaphysical sense, these Titles and qualities were anticipated and assigned by the Bab to Bahaullah.

The Bab came to announce the imminent appearance of Bahaullah, and Bahaullah even says that He would have kept Himself hidden if the Bab hadn’t announced Him.

Much like John the Baptist who ascribed Messiahship to the One who came after him (ie Jesus)

Hi Servant19,

Yes, I find this one of the strongest logical arguments and proofs for the validity and truth of Bahaullah. It differentiates Bahaullah from all other claimants to divine revelation since Jesus Christ Himself.

 

[Servant19]

One of Baha’u’llah’s titles is “Revealer of Books and Sender of Messengers.” By this is meant that He sent the Revelations to the Manifestations, and He sent His own Revelation to Himself.

and i should believe this self-referential proclamation is true, why?

how is it essentially different from the same self-proclamations of a myriad of wannabe incarnations?

joseph smith said the same thing. mohammed said the same thing. jim jones said the same thing. david koresh said the same thing. and, the list goes on and on.

people say all kinds of things about themselves and others. saying something does not make it true.

why believe bahaullah’s self-referential statements are true?

and, like i asked earlier, what did bahaullah reveal that had not been previously revealed and if you can find something to answer that question, how did bahaullah’s revelations complete the revelation of Jesus Christ or add more understanding to Jesus’ life and teachings?

i think the bahais’ struggles to answer this question reveals why i reject bahaullah as being inspired by my Creator.

Hi Eddie, what did Jesus bring that was not already provided for by Moses?

This is critical to understand what Baha’u’llah has brought to the Revelation table

I have asked others the same question here:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=835970

…not sure if you or anyone else can shed more light on the subject?

 

[daler]

and, like i asked earlier, what did bahaullah reveal that had not been previously revealed and if you can find something to answer that question, how did bahaullah’s revelations complete the revelation of Jesus Christ or add more understanding to Jesus’ life and teachings?

Eddie,

. You ask some good and valid questions which I think a few of us must ponder awhile in order to provide you with a proper response, which is a credit to your questions.

. I would say that many of us have provided answers, but the lens through which we look appears to be somewhat different than your own lens through which you view, for example, the position and nature of Christ.

. For me, if I compare the writings of such trivial minds as Koresh, Jones, or Moon to the Words of Jesus, there is simply no comparison. Similarly, when I compare the Writings of Baha’u’llah to those people, there is nothing to compare. Yet when I compare the Writings of Jesus and Baha’u’llah, I recognize that They are on a loftier plane than the rest of humanity.

. From these heights the Nightingales of Paradise warble Their heaven sent Messages to mankind. For those who cannot discern the croaking of the ravens from the quagmire of idle fancies from the Voice of God simply speaks to the deafness of the ears with which they hear.

. When the Hubble space telescope was first launched, it was out of focus. Yet how much greater it was, even in that condition, due to human error, than all previous earth-bound telescopes. Later, when it was repaired, we gazed into the vast physical universe and saw things we never even dreamed were there.

. To me, it is the same thing, only in the spiritual sense, when I gaze into the heavens of understanding that which has been revealed by the Pen of Baha’u’llah, the Lord of Utterance. If, however, my eyes are blinded by the veil of “self”, I perceive but reflections of my own self, limited in understanding and unable to appreciate the luminous Gem which reflects the Light of God Himself.

. Prior to the crucifixion of the Blessed Lord Jesus, He turned to His captors and said:

. “Beholdest thou not the Son of Man seated upon the right hand of power and might?”

. No! They beheld only the illusion of their own power over His physical body and, drunk with this delusion caused by their own spiritual blindness, proceeded to crucify the Lord of the Age.

. This, in all honesty, is what I see happening with those who fail to perceive, with their own eyes, the Splendor of the Blessed Beauty: “Him Who is the Most Hidden of the Hidden and the Most Manifest of the Manifest.”

. One must ask, in this age, as in all past ages when a Manifestation of God appears, and has been attested to by countless souls willing to accept every manner of persecution, punishment, and death, whether in fact there is a beam to be taken from one’s own eyes which may well be preventing him to behold Him Who is the Revealer of the Words of God and to distinguish the Divine from the profane.

. That one who is intoxicated by alcohol cannot properly focus on the officer’s fingers being held right in front of his own eyes, whether one finger or three. He who is intoxicated by the veils of the world similarly is in the condition so often presented by no less than Christ Himself: “Eyes they have, but see not…”

. "Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God, exalted be His glory, endureth for ever, thou must, likewise, believe with undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted. They who are its appointed interpreters, they whose hearts are the repositories of its secrets, are, however, the only ones who can comprehend its manifold wisdom. Whoso, while reading the Sacred Scriptures, is tempted to choose therefrom whatever may suit him with which to challenge the authority of the Representative of God among men, is, indeed, as one dead, though to outward seeming he may walk and converse with his neighbors, and share with them their food and their drink.

. Oh, would that the world could believe Me! Were all the things that lie enshrined within the heart of Bahá, and which the Lord, His God, the Lord of all names, hath taught Him, to be unveiled to mankind, every man on earth would be dumbfounded.

. How great the multitude of truths which the garment of words can never contain! How vast the number of such verities as no expression can adequately describe, whose significance can never be unfolded, and to which not even the remotest allusions can be made! How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the appointed time is come! Even as it hath been said: “Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who hear it.”

. Of these truths some can be disclosed only to the extent of the capacity of the repositories of the light of Our knowledge, and the recipients of Our hidden grace. We beseech God to strengthen thee with His power, and enable thee to recognize Him Who is the Source of all knowledge, that thou mayest detach thyself from all human learning, for, “what would it profit any man to strive after learning when he hath already found and recognized Him Who is the Object of all knowledge?” Cleave to the Root of Knowledge, and to Him Who is the Fountain thereof, that thou mayest find thyself independent of all who claim to be well versed in human learning, and whose claim no clear proof, nor the testimony of any enlightening book, can support."

Baha’u’llah

.

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

Thanks Dr Sen McGlinn, yes sounds good to me.

I am not a Dr. of anything; I’m what the Dutch call a “grandfather student.” That’s a figure of fun and derision in Dutch thinking, but being a student is what I like, and I don’t give a fig for what other people think

 

[daler]

I am not a Dr. of anything; I’m what the Dutch call a “grandfather student.” That’s a figure of fun and derision in Dutch thinking, but being a student is what I like, and I don’t give a fig for what other people think

. and here I was convinced that you were in fact the reincarnation of Dr Seuss…

. dang, I’m disappointed! ;’’-(

 

[eddie_too]

what Jesus did that was new was that He provided an infinite sacrifice that atoned for our sinfulness,

before Jesus, finite man could never, in justice, atone for their offenses against their infinite Creator.

Jesus being both fully human and fully divine was able through His sacrificial death on the cross offer and infinite sacrifice to our infinite Creator on our behalf.

through Jesus, mankind, who had been deemed unworthy of union with their Creator because through the sin of Adam all who followed were born into sin and the sinful and the perfect cannot be perfectly united, were redeemed worthy of union with their Creator.

without Jesus’ sacrifice, no human being would have the opportunity for perfect union with almighty God.

even after Jesus’ sacrifice, although mankind’s relationship with God has been renewed through it, individual human beings must still acknowledge and make their own through personal acceptance the graces God has made available to them through the sacrifice of His Son.

so, at a minimum, Jesus brings two new changes to mankind. first, He overcomes the consequences to mankind of adam’s sin. that consequence being the fact that all of mankind is born into sin from which there was no escape.

second, He enables every individual human to participate in the renewed (restored)relationship with their Creator.

for a RC, it is essential that all aspects of human nature are consistently addressed. this results in a faith system whereby both man’s intellect and his free will are fully involved in his relationship with his Creator. it is also why the resurrection of the body is essential to RC doctrine. a disembodied soul is not how man was created. man is created with both a body and a soul.

 

[Servant19]

what Jesus did that was new was that He provided an infinite sacrifice that atoned for our sinfulness,

before Jesus, finite man could never, in justice, atone for their offenses against their infinite Creator.

Jesus being both fully human and fully divine was able through His sacrificial death on the cross offer and infinite sacrifice to our infinite Creator on our behalf.

through Jesus, mankind, who had been deemed unworthy of union with their Creator because through the sin of Adam all who followed were born into sin and the sinful and the perfect cannot be perfectly united, were redeemed worthy of union with their Creator.

without Jesus’ sacrifice, no human being would have the opportunity for perfect union with almighty God.

even after Jesus’ sacrifice, although mankind’s relationship with God has been renewed through it, individual human beings must still acknowledge and make their own through personal acceptance the graces God has made available to them through the sacrifice of His Son.

so, at a minimum, Jesus brings two new changes to mankind. first, He overcomes the consequences to mankind of adam’s sin. that consequence being the fact that all of mankind is born into sin from which there was no escape.

second, He enables every individual human to participate in the renewed (restored)relationship with their Creator.

for a RC, it is essential that all aspects of human nature are consistently addressed. this results in a faith system whereby both man’s intellect and his free will are fully involved in his relationship with his Creator. it is also why the resurrection of the body is essential to RC doctrine. a disembodied soul is not how man was created. man is created with both a body and a soul.

Hi Eddie,

In Judaism there was no original sin. In fact, the concept of original sin never existed in religious history. So if there was no original sin before Jesus, what need was there for Jesus’ atonement?