Baha'i V

[daler]

So God just kind of got us started and the rest is dependent upon us. Do I understand you correctly?

And there’s the rub. Many refuse to follow God’s commandments. In fact, there is not a person alive who keeps the commandments always and at all times. We all fail. That is why we need a Savior, not so that we can have a better life on earth under some idea of a perfect human government, but so that we might have eternal life. It is not just a matter of following the commandments. It is a matter of a relationship. Our religion is not based upon writings. It is based upon a divine Person who did not just hand us a list of commands, but abides with us always and in many ways.

Actually that is not the reason and I don’t find it difficult at all. I reject it outright because I have fallen in love and will not be untrue to my beloved.

Steve,

. There is a great deal dependent upon us. Hence, the many profound moral “teachings” of Christ. The way He “gets us started” on our spiritual journey is by giving us the commandments He wants us to follow and by telling us:

. ““A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, …”

. Our relationship is based upon recognizing Him. How can I love my Beloved whom I fail see, or to know His voice, or turn aside because He does not appear in the same human garment He once did?

. “How high the reward of him that hath not deprived himself of so great a bounty, nor failed to recognize the beauty of his Best-Beloved in this, His new attire.” Baha’u’llah

.

.

 

[Servant19]

Catholicism and Baha’i view our purpose on earth differently. The Baha’i have a noble goal of forming a perfect society, where all religions will finally recognize the truth in Baha’u’llah and all political and religious differences will be set aside. That is the primary goal; a blueprint for the New Jerusalem to be made by the hands of men.

This should read:

“Catholicism and Baha’i view our purpose on earth differently. The Baha’i have a noble goal of forming a perfect society, where all religions will finally recognize the truth in Baha’u’llah and all political and religious differences will be set aside. That is the primary goal; a blueprint for the New Jerusalem to be made by the hands of men, animated by the power of the Holy Spirit”

 

[Servant19]

And there’s the rub. Many refuse to follow God’s commandments. In fact, there is not a person alive who keeps the commandments always and at all times. We all fail. That is why we need a Savior, not so that we can have a better life on earth under some idea of a perfect human government, but so that we might have eternal life. It is not just a matter of following the commandments. It is a matter of a relationship. Our religion is not based upon writings. It is based upon a divine Person who did not just hand us a list of commands, but abides with us always and in many ways.

What is the logic behind creating a human being that has the option to fail, and when he fails, there is no eternal life, only that many thousands of years later, for God Himself to make Himself human so that He can sacrifice His own life in order to “pay” for those failures, so now we can all have eternal life again, even though we still fail on so many levels?

Wouldn’t an All-Efficient God simply give everyone eternal life anyway, since we sinned before God Incarnated and we still sin after too?

This makes even less sense in that the Adam and Eve narrative is considered symbolic rather than historic by Catholicism…

 

[tonyfish58]

I asked arthra this question but I will leave it out there for any Baha’i to answer. How do you know that the Bible is actually Scripture?

SteveVH - Apart from my study and reading of these Scriptures, it has been Confirmed by the Koran and the Writings of the Baha’i Faith

The City Temple: Introduction

ON September 10th 1911, the first Sunday after ‘Abdu’l-Bahá’s arrival in England, he spoke from the City Temple pulpit to the evening congregation at the special desire of the Pastor, the Reverend R. J. Campbell.
Though ‘Abdu’l-Bahá’s coming had not been advertised the Church was filled to its utmost capacity. Few that were there will ever forget the sight of that venerable figure clad in his Eastern garb, ascending the pulpit stairs to address a public gathering for the first time in his life. That this should be at a Christian place of worship in the West has its own deep significance. Mr. Campbell introduced the visitor with a few simple words in the course of which he said: “We, as the followers of the Lord Jesus Christ, who is to us and will always be the Light of the World, view with sympathy and respect every movement of the Spirit of God in the experience of mankind, and therefore we give greeting to ‘Abdu’l-Bahá in the name of all who share the spirit of our Master, and are trying to live their lives in that Spirit. The Bahá’í Movement is very closely akin to, I think I might say is identical with, the spiritual purpose of Christianity.”
Before ‘Abdu’l-Bahá left the Church, he wrote in the old Bible used by generations of preachers, the following words in his own native Persian, the translation being added as follows:

Inscription in the Old Bible Written by ‘Abdu’l-Bahá in Persian
**
“THIS book is the Holy Book of God, of celestial Inspiration. It is the Bible of Salvation, the Noble Gospel. It is the mystery of the Kingdom and its light. It is the Divine Bounty, the sign of the guidance of God”** ‘Abdu’l-Bahá Abbás

Regards Tony

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Why do you bahais continue to deny Christianity disbelieves in the doctrines of bahai? Is that your afraid of offending Christians? I consider it far more offensive that you will not be frank. You will not tell the Christian he is wrong for worshipping Jesus, instead you will praise him (if he is moral, which totally goes against the spirit of Christianity) and say God is with him (as bahai have done with Mother Teresa). Is it too much to ask for a little sincerity?

 

[daler]

Why do you bahais continue to deny Christianity disbelieves in the doctrines of bahai? Is that your afraid of offending Christians? I consider it far more offensive that you will not be frank. You will not tell the Christian he is wrong for worshipping Jesus, instead you will praise him (if he is moral, which totally goes against the spirit of Christianity) and say God is with him (as bahai have done with Mother Teresa). Is it too much to ask for a little sincerity?

Ignatian,
. I do not know of any insincere Baha’is. We come from all sorts of backgrounds and former religious traditions, some Christian, some Native, etc, etc
. I don’t hear anyone saying it is wrong to worship Jesus, or praise His Holy Name, and reverence Him above all men.
. You don’t always get the same answer every time from the Baha’i guests, as we are all fallible servants attempting to express our own understanding as best we can, while always deferring to the unquestioned authority of the Sacred Texts of the Bab, Baha’u’llah, or Abdul Baha.

. There are Writings which refer to the “Face of God” being beheld in the Person of the Manifestation of God. I’ve read that from the Writings of the Bab and also Baha’u’llah. The same applies to His Holiness Lord Christ. In these examples it is very clearly put forth that to attain to the presence of Jesus, or the Bab, or Baha’u’llah is to attain to the presence of God.

. I have felt this down to the very soul when I was on Pilgrimage at the Holy Shrines of the Bab and Baha’u’llah, beyond any and all human description, being in the Presence of God. Many Baha’is will tell you this if pressed about what they experienced, but none have words for it, for one is reduced to a state of absolute nothingness before His Throne, even though it be His resting place. It cannot be expressed in words, really

. Thank you, God bless you, Ignatian, for your spirit and intelligence.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Ignatian,
. I do not know of any insincere Baha’is. We come from all sorts of backgrounds and former religious traditions, some Christian, some Native, etc, etc
. I don’t hear anyone saying it is wrong to worship Jesus, or praise His Holy Name, and reverence Him above all men.
. You don’t always get the same answer every time from the Baha’i guests, as we are all fallible servants attempting to express our own understanding as best we can, while always deferring to the unquestioned authority of the Sacred Texts of the Bab, Baha’u’llah, or Abdul Baha.

. There are Writings which refer to the “Face of God” being beheld in the Person of the Manifestation of God. I’ve read that from the Writings of the Bab and also Baha’u’llah. The same applies to His Holiness Lord Christ. In these examples it is very clearly put forth that to attain to the presence of Jesus, or the Bab, or Baha’u’llah is to attain to the presence of God.

. I have felt this down to the very soul when I was on Pilgrimage at the Holy Shrines of the Bab and Baha’u’llah, beyond any and all human description, being in the Presence of God. Many Baha’is will tell you this if pressed about what they experienced, but none have words for it, for one is reduced to a state of absolute nothingness before His Throne, even though it be His resting place. It cannot be expressed in words, really

. Thank you, God bless you, Ignatian, for your spirit and intelligence.

I give up. You are not interested in trying to convey your ideas (which I do know), you are interested in trying to appear as attractive as possible. I bet you will totally ignore this question, are Christians worshipping that which is not God, therefore committing gross idolatry? Can you at least attempt to answer this question and not meander around it with the attempt of trying to appear profound?

 

[Servant19]

Servant in saying Jesus did not claim to be God ontologically (which we could dispute), you have admitted to my premise there is a dichotomy between us. It is not as was said before, a false dichotomy, but a real and strikingly different belief.

My friend, the only dichotomy that exists is that you claim to have ontologiocal knowledge about God, whereas I am simply saying “I am a humble human being who would never make such a claim”

How can you claim to have any ontological knowledge about God? God is by definition beyond a human description. I don’t care if the Church says this or that about God, and whether you believe that the Church is the absolute embodiment of the Holy Spirit. I would suggest that this is a “DREAM” my friend.

The moment you claim ontology, or a Church claims ontology, it automatically eliminates the whole concept of epistemology. What sort of God can be described by a human being?

Ha! Not one that I would worship. The whole premise of worship is submission to a Great One (that doesn’t imply “unloving” or “impersonal”) and if we can ontologically put our fingers on His nature, then He immediately loses His greatnes

The truth is we don’t understand the true nature of God. So how can you claim to have ontological understanding? As a result, its really not relevant to my human existence. I love and worship a God, and the only way I can even approach Him is by approaching Baha’u’llah, and worship the unique Divine attributes He manifested, thats it…anything beyond that is arrogance in the face of God in my humble opinion…

If Jesus is ontologically God, then why does a Muslims prayer get answered? Why does a Jews prayers get answered? A Jew despises Jesus for the blasphemous claims that He would make. They pray to G_d, not Jesus. They turn their backs to Jesus, yet they lead just as abundant a life as Christians. Why is that?

You have conceded we worship that which is not God. If you will continue to deny that we contradict each other, that in reality we worship the same God despite the quran telling me I’m committing shirk and going to hell for it, then I can only conclude the bahai do not care about God.

What?? How do you conclude that Baha’is do not care about God? Where is that stemming from? All we say is, were it not for Jesus and Baha’u’llah, Abraham, Moses etc, we would not even know a God existed. He does exist, but the closest we can get to Him is Jesus, Baha’u’llah, Abraham, Moses etc

Of course we contradict each other. You claim ontological knowledge. I claim epistemological knowledge. Baha’u’llah and Jesus had ontological knowledge. I can only dream of touching the shoreline of His ocean of knowledge. They created a new heaven and a new earth the moment they said “BE”…They define reality. I get a warped understanding of that reality…

They care more about being good, than recognising who and what God has done for us.

Baha’is care about what God has done for us. Where is this coming from??
I recite the prayers for thankfullness every single day

Please, try to be honest in your learnings about the Baha’i Faith

That is one of the odd things in bahai, there is no sense of the sinful self that is in rebellion against God, that we are totally dependant on God for all things. There is only the sense in the creation who can make themselves perfect, regardless of what they believe.

Again, where does this come from???
Baha’is are NOTHING without the Holy Spirit that is working through each and every one of us. We recognize the sinful self, yet, through prayer, reflection and conscious effort, we draw on the grace and confirmations of the Almighty to guide us towards a life of fulfillment, aligning ourselves to perform deeds which are in conformity with the Will of God for today.

Again, please, express what you know about the Faith, not what you assume. It makes dialogue a lot more fruitful…

As for your question which is blatantly obvious in its intent, I refuse to answer within the limited answers you have given. Neither are living according to the will of God, the Catholic who does not practice the faith, nor the Muslim who denies God.

Good answer

Faith and works are inseparable. "These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other"

…however, when an individual fulfills his duties of deeds which are in accordance with teh Will of God, empirical science and religion merge together, and FAITH develops accordingly.

Every day, I see how an atheist, or a pagan, comes and joins the ranks of servants contributing towards creating a new heaven and a new earth as envisaged by Baha’u’llah, and having empirically SEEN with their own eyes, the unique transformations that they can contribute to within society, transformations that bring about sustainable change and empowerment for the common good of all, then, and ONLY THEN, do they develop Faith in an ALMIGHTY LORD that has His hands working through His humble agents on this earth. The twin duties are thereby fulfilled…

 

[Servant19]

In this example you have made the clear implication that doing the right thing is more important than having the right idea about God. Let me ask you, who is justified before God? The Christian who says he is a sinner and worships Jesus? Or the Pagan who lives a more esteemable life emodying the principles of Christ while giving loyalty to Zeus? Your answer to this question will be telling. I am not a roman catholic, so I do not know why you are speaking of Catholicism to me.

I have not said that one is MORE important than the other. No. As I have already asserted, these twin duties are inseparable.

BUT…there is a commonality with human beings in this day, and that is a general concern for the wellbeing of the earth and its inhabitants. There is a willingness to engage in programs that can look at sustainable change.

If you haven’t seen this interview yet, I suggest having a look. Russell Brand interviewed by Jeremy Paxman:

youtube.com/watch?v=3YR4CseY9pk&list=TLP5lMJ3nW_OblTd07JgxqnLjuGme9UpQ5

Here, Russell recognizes the plight of humanity and sees the blatant injustices in the world, and sees how politics is totally apathetic to these injustices, and how charitable works dfo nothing to sustainably eliminate injustice on a global scale. He has good intentions. Were he to be introduced to a program where these things are being addressed for sustainable change globally, then he would maybe be willing to participate. THEN, if he sees that this is “WORKING” then he becomes interested in the source of these programs, and if the source is Divine, then Faith is developed and he fulfills his purpose in the eyes of God, he starts to pray, he starts to fast etc etc and draws on the blessings and confirmations which come with this newfound faith which in turn strengthens his resolve to do more and align his life more with the Wil of God.

Why is this a faulty approach to Faith?

Faith isn’t developed by walking up to an atheist and saying “Hey, lets pray!” or “Hey, Jesus is God, look it says so in the Bible”

What sort of response do you think you’ll get from an atheist with that approach. One can only guess…

But you should allow pagans to continue worshipping their God, and atheists should be allowed to deny God as well as Christians should be allowed to worship Jesus as God in bahai. Don’t you agree? If you don’t agree, you are saying that in order to be bahai, one must confess certain things about God, one must give up past beliefs because they are considered wrong in bahai. Or you could be absolutely inclusive.

No. This is why the Pope in a recent interview talks about atheists should “First do good”

He understands that it is through our WORKS and DEEDS that we can develop a Faith in God, simply because the works that we engage in can produce VISIBLE and empirical results.

Unfortunately, not all works will be easy to see the fruits. In the Baha’i perspective, ONLY the works as envisaged by Baha’u’llah can result in outcomes that address the plight of humanity today…

 

[tonyfish58]

I give up. You are not interested in trying to convey your ideas (which I do know), you are interested in trying to appear as attractive as possible. I bet you will totally ignore this question, are Christians worshipping that which is not God, therefore committing gross idolatry? Can you at least attempt to answer this question and not meander around it with the attempt of trying to appear profound?

IgnatianPhilo - The Holy Koran answers you direct question.

[5:72] Pagans indeed are those who say that GOD is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah himself said, “O Children of Israel, you shall worship GOD; my Lord* and your Lord.” Anyone who sets up any idol beside GOD, GOD has forbidden Paradise for him, and his destiny is Hell. The wicked have no helpers.

[3:79] Never would a human being whom GOD blessed with the scripture and prophethood say to the people, “Idolize me beside GOD.” Instead, (he would say), “Devote yourselves absolutely to your Lord alone,” according to the scripture you preach and the teachings you learn.

Regards Tony

 

[Servant19]

A question from Josh, from another thread. Thank you Josh. I am sure you will receive plenty of answers here friend:

Thanks Tony,

So Baha’i is considered a part of islam? that takes Baha’i along with Jesus and Muhummad as prophets?

The other question I want to ask is, why don’t you believe Jesus Christ to be the son of God? how do you understand the passages that say/point out he is, in the Gospels?

Sorry for all the questions, feel free to ask me anything about my faith if you like and i’ll try to answer them to the best of my ability

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[Servant19]

Hi Josh, I will attempt an answer to your questions if I may. I’m sure Tony and others will offer some thoughts

In regards to the Son of God, Baha’is verify that Jesus was the Son of God. Jesus Himself did call Himself a Prophet also, and so Baha’is assert He was a Prophet with a unique station and relationship with God which differs from some of the other Prophets of the Old Testament such as Ezekial and Daniel.

Hope this helps

 

[Vouthon]

In my view Christianity has stressed salvation of the individual

Hmm…I’m not sure about that Arthra. An emphasis upon individual salvation is more a hallmark of certain Protestant denominations.

"…At all times and in every race God has given welcome to whosoever fears Him and does what is right.(85) God, however, does not make men holy and save them merely as individuals, without bond or link between one another. Rather has it pleased Him to bring men together as one people, a people which acknowledges Him in truth and serves Him in holiness. He therefore chose the race of Israel as a people unto Himself. With it He set up a covenant. Step by step He taught and prepared this people, making known in its history both Himself and the decree of His will and making it holy unto Himself. All these things, however, were done by way of preparation and as a figure of that new and perfect covenant, which was to be ratified in Christ, and of that fuller revelation which was to be given through the Word of God Himself made flesh…

It is through the sacraments and the exercise of the virtues that the sacred nature and organic structure of the priestly community is brought into operation. Incorporated in the Church through baptism, the faithful are destined by the baptismal character for the worship of the Christian religion; reborn as sons of God they must confess before men the faith which they have received from God through the Church (4*). They are more perfectly bound to the Church by the sacrament of Confirmation, and the Holy Spirit endows them with special strength so that they are more strictly obliged to spread and defend the faith, both by word and by deed, as true witnesses of Christ (5*). Taking part in the Eucharistic sacrifice, which is the fount and apex of the whole Christian life, they offer the Divine Victim to God, and offer themselves along with It.(6*) Thus both by reason of the offering and through Holy Communion all take part in this liturgical service, not indeed, all in the same way but each in that way which is proper to himself. Strengthened in Holy Communion by the Body of Christ, they then manifest in a concrete way that unity of the people of God which is suitably signified and wondrously brought about by this most august sacrament…

All men are called to belong to the new people of God. Wherefore this people, while remaining one and only one, is to be spread throughout the whole world and must exist in all ages, so that the decree of God’s will may be fulfilled. In the beginning God made human nature one and decreed that all His children, scattered as they were, would finally be gathered together as one…

It follows that though there are many nations there is but one people of God, which takes its citizens from every race, making them citizens of a kingdom which is of a heavenly rather than of an earthly nature. All the faithful, scattered though they be throughout the world, are in communion with each other in the Holy Spirit, and so, he who dwells in Rome knows that the people of India are his members"(9*)…"

- Lumen Gentium (1964), Dogmatic Constitution on the Church (Second Vatican Council)

 

[josh987654321]

Hi Josh, I will attempt an answer to your questions if I may. I’m sure Tony and others will offer some thoughts

In regards to the Son of God, Baha’is verify that Jesus was the Son of God.

Oh okay, So why are Baha’is not Christians?

Jesus Himself did call Himself a Prophet also,

I’m not sure where it say’s that in the Gospels, could you please let me know where this passage is? because I can’t find Jesus reffering to himself as only a prophet in the Gospels.

and so Baha’is assert He was a Prophet with a unique station and relationship with God which differs from some of the other Prophets of the Old Testament such as Ezekial and Daniel.

Hope this helps

Thank you.

God Bless

Josh

 

[josh987654321]

Josh - Thank you for the reply - The Baha’i Faith is not considered part of Islam the same way that Christianity is not part of Judaism. They have their seeds planted and grew from previous Scriptures, but have grown Independent and blossomed to full fruit as individual Religions.

oh okay, haha I was on the thread titled “Why is christianity right and islam wrong?” and assumed Baha’i had to do with Islam.

Or a better way to put it may be that they are different Branches of the same mighty tree that all feed off the same root stock!

Okay.

So yes we beleive in Progressive Revelation, that God sends His Prophets to bring Man to a fuller understanding of His love as man Grows in Capacity to accept Gods Message. Each age has its own needs and God never leaves us alone!

I agree.

We do accept Jesus as the Son of God, the difference being in interpretation of some Biblical Passages.

So Is Baha’i a form of Christianity?

We are told it is a Station not a Flesh Fact.

I’m not sure what your saying here, could you explain this to me please?

There are many writings on this subject to explore, Biblical, Koran and Baha’i writings.

Could you provide me with a link please?

You have offered this “feel free to ask me anything about my faith if you like and I’ll try to answer them to the best of my ability”. Thank you for the offer on sharing your Faith.

My Pleasure

What are your thoughts re Christ and God? and Where do you see at this point, that we may differ?

Regards Tony

I believe in one lord Jesus Christ the only begotten Son of God, born of the father before all ages.

I believe in One God, the father almighty, creator of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible.

At this point, I am not too sure where we differ just yet, I don’t really know enough about Baha’i yet to know what we differ on, so far it sounds like your agreeing with alot of what us Christians believe.

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[SteveVH]

Steve,

. There is a great deal dependent upon us. Hence, the many profound moral “teachings” of Christ. The way He “gets us started” on our spiritual journey is by giving us the commandments He wants us to follow and by telling us:

. ““A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, …”

. Our relationship is based upon recognizing Him. How can I love my Beloved whom I fail see, or to know His voice, or turn aside because He does not appear in the same human garment He once did?

. “How high the reward of him that hath not deprived himself of so great a bounty, nor failed to recognize the beauty of his Best-Beloved in this, His new attire.” Baha’u’llah

.

.

 

[SteveVH]

Steve,

Our relationship is based upon recognizing Him.

A Catholic relationship is based upon having a one-flesh union with him; an intimacy that no other religion possesses.

How can I love my Beloved whom I fail see, or to know His voice, or turn aside because He does not appear in the same human garment He once did?

This is just a false premise, daler. Jesus is not a shape shifter. He is Jesus then, now and forever, not Abraham or Moses or Muhammad or Baha’u’llah. By the way, Moses would be the last person to equate himself with Christ, as would Abraham.

 

[arthra]

Josh had a few questions…

Jesus alluded to Himself as a Prophet when He was in His own town …

A Prophet is not without honor except in His own town…

And they took offense at him. But Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his own town and in his own home.”

• Matthew 13:57

Josh also asked if the Baha’i Faith was a form of Christianity…

Baha’i Faith is an independent religion… which recognizes the previous dispensations of Islam and Christianity and Judaism and their Holy Books…but also having it’s own Writings.

A summary follows:

The Bahá’í Faith recognizes the unity of God and of His Prophets, upholds the principle of an unfettered search after truth, condemns all forms of superstition and prejudice, teaches that the fundamental purpose of religion is to promote concord and harmony, that it must go hand-in-hand with science, and that it constitutes the sole and ultimate basis of a peaceful, an ordered and progressive society. It inculcates the principle of equal opportunity, rights and privileges for both sexes, advocates compulsory education, abolishes extremes of poverty and wealth, exalts work performed in the spirit of service to the rank of worship, recommends the adoption of an auxiliary international language, and provides the necessary agencies for the establishment and safeguarding of a permanent and universal peace.

~ Shoghi Effendi, Summary Statement -The World Religion

 

[eddie_too]

there is no reason to believe the bahai teachings are the sole basis for a fruitful society.

there is no reason to believe that the bahai religious believers should be able to use violence to coerce compliance with their teachings.

both of the above statements, which reject bahai teachings, are enough reason to reject bahaism and all that it teaches.

really, the bahai advocacy of violence should in itself alone be adequate justification for rejecting bahai in its totality.

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

there is no reason to believe the bahai teachings are the sole basis for a fruitful society.

there is no reason to believe that the bahai religious believers should be able to use violence to coerce compliance with their teachings.

Read more carefully Eddie too: there is not a word about advocating violence in the quote, and it is “religion” not “the Bahai teachings” which are “the sole basis for a fruitful society.”

Do you think a society can be fruitful without any religion? If so, can you give an example?