Baha'i V

[daler]

Christ also said you must worship in spirit and in truth. God of the old testament certaintly forbade idolatry and certaintly the worship of a man who is not God is idolatry. I just don’t understand how you as bahai emphasize the social and practical aspects over the truth of the matter. You should be like the muslim and condemn Mother Teresa and all Chrisitans for worshipping a man, but you don’t seemingly care. Or if you care you are so not wanting to offend that you don’t say anything about it.

Ignatian,
. I’m not sure if I follow what you are saying or objecting to here. I’m pretty tired and gonna head off to sleep shortly. You might restate if for me, if you will. Thanks.

. Briefly, I totally agree that we should worship in Spirit and in Truth. I think that Mother Theresa’s whole life was one of worshipping in Spirit and in Truth. God bless her soul for eternity…

. As to Baha’is stating what they believe to be the Divine Station of Jesus the Christ, we are bound to do so in accordance with our understanding of the Spirit and Truth. If I were to say that I think such and such is the Truth if I don’t think that way, then I am not being truthful. How can you ask me to not be truthful?

. Likewise, I would never want you to withhold your understanding or perception of the Truth just to please me. If we differ, we must do so honestly and with integrity in the spirit of: “The Truth shall set you free!” Even if we disagree.

. It is how we fulfill the admonition of “Come, let us reason together” that provides us with the opportunity to share our differing understandings. That the many peoples of the world have different understandings should never hinder them from sharing their thoughts. No one should feel dominated or otherwise cast aside for having a view this way or that.

God bless, Ignatian, and I must say: Goodnite

 

[tonyfish58]

Christ also said you must worship in spirit and in truth. God of the old testament certaintly forbade idolatry and certaintly the worship of a man who is not God is idolatry. I just don’t understand how you as bahai emphasize the social and practical aspects over the truth of the matter. You should be like the muslim and condemn Mother Teresa and all Chrisitans for worshipping a man, but you don’t seemingly care. Or if you care you are so not wanting to offend that you don’t say anything about it.

I would prefer to live by these quotes as they are applicable to all of us!

Matthew 7:3 - 5 - 3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye".

"It is my hope that you may consider this matter, that you may search out your own imperfections and not think of the imperfections of anybody else. Strive with all your power to be free from imperfections. Heedless souls are always seeking faults in others. What can the hypocrite know of others’ faults when he is blind to his own? This is the meaning of the words in the Seven Valleys. It is a guide for human conduct. As long as a man does not find his own faults, he can never become perfect. Nothing is more fruitful for man than the knowledge of his own shortcomings. The Blessed Perfection says, “I wonder at the man who does not find his own imperfections.”

• `Abdu’l-Bahá, The Promulgation of Universal Peace p. 244.

"In order to achieve this cordial unity one of the first essentials insisted on by Bahá’u’lláh and `Abdu’l-Bahá is that we resist the natural tendency to let our attention dwell on the faults and failings of others rather than on our own. Each of us is responsible for one life only, and this is our own. Each of us is immeasurable far from being ‘perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect’ and the task of perfecting our own life and character is one that requires all our attention, our will-power and energy. If we allow our attention and energy to be taken up in efforts to keep others right and remedy their faults, we are wasting precious time. we are like ploughmen each of whom has his team to manage and his plough to direct, and in order to keep his furrow straight he must keep his eye on his goal and concentrate on his own task. If he looks to this side and that to see how Tom and Harry are getting on and to criticise their ploughing, then his own furrow will assuredly become crooked.

"On no subject are the Bahá’í teachings more emphatic than on the necessity to abstain from fault-finding and backbiting while being ever eager to discover and root out our own faults and overcome our own failings. "

From a letter dated May 12, 1925 written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, Compilation “On the Bahá’í Life” printed by the National Spiritual Assembly of the Bahá’ís of Canada, p. 3.

Regards Tony

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

I would prefer to live by these quotes as they are applicable to all of us!

Matthew 7:3 - 5 - 3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye".

"It is my hope that you may consider this matter, that you may search out your own imperfections and not think of the imperfections of anybody else. Strive with all your power to be free from imperfections. Heedless souls are always seeking faults in others. What can the hypocrite know of others’ faults when he is blind to his own? This is the meaning of the words in the Seven Valleys. It is a guide for human conduct. As long as a man does not find his own faults, he can never become perfect. Nothing is more fruitful for man than the knowledge of his own shortcomings. The Blessed Perfection says, “I wonder at the man who does not find his own imperfections.”

• `Abdu’l-Bahá, The Promulgation of Universal Peace p. 244.

"In order to achieve this cordial unity one of the first essentials insisted on by Bahá’u’lláh and `Abdu’l-Bahá is that we resist the natural tendency to let our attention dwell on the faults and failings of others rather than on our own. Each of us is responsible for one life only, and this is our own. Each of us is immeasurable far from being ‘perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect’ and the task of perfecting our own life and character is one that requires all our attention, our will-power and energy. If we allow our attention and energy to be taken up in efforts to keep others right and remedy their faults, we are wasting precious time. we are like ploughmen each of whom has his team to manage and his plough to direct, and in order to keep his furrow straight he must keep his eye on his goal and concentrate on his own task. If he looks to this side and that to see how Tom and Harry are getting on and to criticise their ploughing, then his own furrow will assuredly become crooked.

"On no subject are the Bahá’í teachings more emphatic than on the necessity to abstain from fault-finding and backbiting while being ever eager to discover and root out our own faults and overcome our own failings. "

From a letter dated May 12, 1925 written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, Compilation “On the Bahá’í Life” printed by the National Spiritual Assembly of the Bahá’ís of Canada, p. 3.

Regards Tony

So it seems you don’t care about actually worshipping the true God, you care more about a reform in this world.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Ignatian,
. I’m not sure if I follow what you are saying or objecting to here. I’m pretty tired and gonna head off to sleep shortly. You might restate if for me, if you will. Thanks.

. Briefly, I totally agree that we should worship in Spirit and in Truth. I think that Mother Theresa’s whole life was one of worshipping in Spirit and in Truth. God bless her soul for eternity…

. As to Baha’is stating what they believe to be the Divine Station of Jesus the Christ, we are bound to do so in accordance with our understanding of the Spirit and Truth. If I were to say that I think such and such is the Truth if I don’t think that way, then I am not being truthful. How can you ask me to not be truthful?

. Likewise, I would never want you to withhold your understanding or perception of the Truth just to please me. If we differ, we must do so honestly and with integrity in the spirit of: “The Truth shall set you free!” Even if we disagree.

. It is how we fulfill the admonition of “Come, let us reason together” that provides us with the opportunity to share our differing understandings. That the many peoples of the world have different understandings should never hinder them from sharing their thoughts. No one should feel dominated or otherwise cast aside for having a view this way or that.

God bless, Ignatian, and I must say: Goodnite

Mother Teresa worshipped Jesus Christ. Bahais deny Jesus as God. they say he is not God. The quran calls those whom associate partners with Allah the worst of people. That is my point. Mother Teresa, and all Christians, cannot according to bahai understanding worship God in spirit and in truth. In fact it seems bahai do not care about what we worship. Don’t pretend you agree with us, don;t lie and say your beliefs concerning Jesus are the same or unimportant. I’m tired of that sort of patronizing.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Steve,

I hope you don't mind my telling a bit of my sense of this, but for me, every time I remember hearing the Lord's Prayer in Church I would get the goosebumps.   And when I would read the words of Jesus, like in the red letter editions of the Bible, there would just be something about how He would speak and answer.   It was even as the man said in John 7:46

. “No one ever spoke like this man!”

. For me, it has never been about the loaves and fishes, etc. It has always been about the effect His words produced upon my spirit. There is a kind of resonance, like a tuning fork.

. Did you ever see and hear how a tuning fork of a certain pitch, say a “C”, when rung and put near another C tuning fork will start it ringing without it being struck? Its like that. Something just rings true about it. I would attribute that to the power of the Holy Spirit. When we are open to the Holy Spirit, He speaks to our souls…

The question was, how do you know the holy scripture, is scripture?

 

[Servant19]

So it seems you don’t care about actually worshipping the true God, you care more about a reform in this world.

My friend, what entails worship? Sitting down praying for days on end while your neighbour is dying from poverty is not exactly worship is it?

For Baha’is we are told that we should live our lives so that each day may be likened to prayer. While we do worship the One God, we also live our lives to reform this unjust world we live in, ONCE AND FOR ALL

Ignatian you seem to live in dichotomies:

Worship the one God, or reform the world…
Jesus is God or Jesus is not God…

Baha’is avoid false dichotomies. Baha’u’llah encourages we live our lives in harmony with the realities presented to us, and to avoid false dichotomies, so why dichotomize?

Jesus is both God and not God at the same time, He is “the Father is greater than I” AND “I and the father are one” at the same time
Baha’u’llah is EXACTLY that same identity…

…just as Elijah is and is not John the Baptist at the same time. I don’t see a dichotomy, why do you?

 

[tonyfish58]

So it seems you don’t care about actually worshipping the true God, you care more about a reform in this world.

That is a strange conclusion to draw from what was quoted.

To live the Life as per those Quotes, is an act of worship for the belief you have. To be a Christian we must have removed the Plank, can any one living on this earth at this time say that have achieved that Goal?

Given this, who are we to condemn any one, it is not our right.

Regards Tony

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

My friend, what entails worship. Sitting down praying for days on end while your neighbour is dying from poverty is not exactly worship is it?

For Baha’is we are told that we should live our lives so that each day may be likened to prayer. While we do worship the One God, we also live our lives to reform this unjust world we live in, ONCE AND FOR ALL

Ignatian you seem to live in dichotomies:

Worship the one God, or reform the world…
Jesus is God or Jesus is not God…

Baha’is avoid false dichotomies. Baha’u’llah encourages we live our lives in harmony with the realities presented to us, and to avoid false dichotomies, so why dichotomize?

Jesus is both God and not God at the same time, He is
Baha’u’llah is EXACTLY that same identity, just as Elijah is and is not John the Baptist at the same time. I don’t see a dichotomy, why do you?

It is a real dichotomy though.

We believe in One God, the father almighty, the son who is God of God, light from Light, True God from true God and hte Holy spirit.

You believe in a UNitarian God who has these beings called manifestations around him who are not God nor are they supposed to be worshipped.

When you start allowing idolatry, which Christians are neccessarily guilty of according to the quran and the bahai writings if they are wrong, as valid forms of worshipping the true God, you allow paganism, you allow atheism. God and his idenitity, who he is and what he has done does not matter, rather what matters is people being nice and getting along with each other. Not to deny the goodness of charity, but we do not start from there, we start from the source of all that is good, God himself and who he is and whom he has revealed himself to be.

Right now, i am being convinced, bahai could do without the idea of God, after all if you think Christianity is just as valid, just as right as bahai in worshipping Jesus Christ as God, then allow atheists and pagans to become bahai. The bahai, at least on this forum, have embraced the wisdom of the current age, subjectivism.

 

[Servant19]

The question was, how do you know the holy scripture, is scripture?

Through reading about the historical circumstances that the Person of the Manifestation of God lived. Watching how the Word is implemented into one’s life and assessing to see if it reaps “goodly fruits”…

But everyone has slightly different realities and they are all very valid.

For me, reading how the chief theologian of the Shah of Iran was converted into the Faith is a standout. Listening to the last words of the Seven Martyrs of Iran were also a standout.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Through reading about the historical circumstances that the Person of the Manifestation of God lived. Watching how the Word is implemented into one’s life and assessing to see if it reaps “goodly fruits”…

But everyone has slightly different realities and they are all very valid.

For me, reading how the chief theologian of the Shah of Iran was converted into the Faith is a standout. Listening to the last words of the Seven Martyrs of Iran were also a standout.

How does that principle apply in order to dinstinguish the gospel of Mark as sacred scripture as opposed to the gospel of Thomas?

 

[Servant19]

It is a real dichotomy though.

We believe in One God, the father almighty, the son who is God of God, light from Light, True God from true God and hte Holy spirit.

You believe in a UNitarian God who has these beings called manifestations around him who are not God nor are they supposed to be worshipped.

Who said we do not worship the Divinity of Baha’u’llah?

The reality is that there is a lot of epistemology and ontology going on. You claim that Jesus is ontologically God.
Jesus Himself did not claim this, for He would never have made reference to His human aspect in the manner that He did. He made a distinct difference. For something to be ontologically something else, there is NO ROOM for any distinction, at all.
Baha’is simply say that as a human being we cannot claim to know the ontology of ANYTHING. God is only knowable on an epistemological sense, and Jesus is that Source (as is Baha’u’llah)

When you start allowing idolatry, which Christians are neccessarily guilty of according to the quran and the bahai writings if they are wrong, as valid forms of worshipping the true God, you allow paganism, you allow atheism. God and his idenitity, who he is and what he has done does not matter, rather what matters is people being nice and getting along with each other. Not to deny the goodness of charity, but we do not start from there, we start from the source of all that is good, God himself and who he is and whom he has revealed himself to be.

Right now, i am being convinced, bahai could do without the idea of God, after all if you think Christianity is just as valid, just as right as bahai in worshipping Jesus Christ as God, then allow atheists and pagans to become bahai. The bahai, at least on this forum, have embraced the wisdom of the current age, subjectivism.

There are many atheists and pagans who have become Baha’i.

You can go here:
news.bahai.org/community-news/youth-conferences/

and click on any of the youth conferences listed, see the photos, and look out for the several Muslims who are working side by side with the Baha’is to create a new heaven and a new earth. There are also Christians, atheists and pagans in there too, Sikhs, Buddhists, you name it.

God doesnt differentiate on whether you think Jesus is God or not. He differentiates on whether you serve Him or not, to the best of your ability.
Who lives according to the Will of God?

1. The baptised Catholic who goes to Mass, yet does nothing of any note to alleviate the suffereing of the world, OR
2. The baptised by spirit Muslim who works with the Baha’is to create a world where poverty and injustice, and tyranny will vanish forever?

Being baptised by spirit is a de fide teaching of Catholicism, why do you think that is?

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Who said we do not worship the Divinity of Baha’u’llah?

The reality is that there is a lot of epistemology and ontology going on. You claim that Jesus is ontologically God.
Jesus Himself did not claim this, for He would never have made reference to His human aspect in the manner that He did. He made a distinct difference. For something to be ontologically something else, there is NO ROOM for any distinction, at all.
Baha’is simply say that as a human being we cannot claim to know the ontology of ANYTHING. God is only knowable on an epistemological sense, and Jesus is that Source (as is Baha’u’llah)

There are many atheists and pagans who have become Baha’i.

You can go here:
news.bahai.org/community-news/youth-conferences/

and click on any of the youth conferences listed, see the photos, and look out for the several Muslims who are working side by side with the Baha’is to create a new heaven and a new earth. There are also Christians, atheists and pagans in there too, Sikhs, Buddhists, you name it.

God doesnt differentiate on whether you think Jesus is God or not. He differentiates on whether you serve Him or not, to the best of your ability.
Who lives according to the Will of God?

1. The baptised Catholic who goes to Mass, yet does nothing of any note to alleviate the suffereing of the world, OR
2. The baptised by spirit Muslim who works with the Baha’is to create a world where poverty and injustice, and tyranny will vanish forever?

Being baptised by spirit is a de fide teaching of Catholicism, why do you think that is?

Servant in saying Jesus did not claim to be God ontologically (which we could dispute), you have admitted to my premise there is a dichotomy between us. It is not as was said before, a false dichotomy, but a real and strikingly different belief. You have conceded we worship that which is not God. If you will continue to deny that we contradict each other, that in reality we worship the same God despite the quran telling me I’m committing shirk and going to hell for it, then I can only conclude the bahai do not care about God. They care more about being good, than recognising who and what God has done for us. That is one of the odd things in bahai, there is no sense of the sinful self that is in rebellion against God, that we are totally dependant on God for all things. There is only the sense in the creation who can make themselves perfect, regardless of what they believe.

As for your question which is blatantly obvious in its intent, I refuse to answer within the limited answers you have given. Neither are living according to the will of God, the Catholic who does not practice the faith, nor the Muslim who denies God. In this example you have made the clear implication that doing the right thing is more important than having the right idea about God. Let me ask you, who is justified before God? The Christian who says he is a sinner and worships Jesus? Or the Pagan who lives a more esteemable life emodying the principles of Christ while giving loyalty to Zeus? Your answer to this question will be telling. I am not a roman catholic, so I do not know why you are speaking of Catholicism to me.

But you should allow pagans to continue worshipping their God, and atheists should be allowed to deny God as well as Christians should be allowed to worship Jesus as God in bahai. Don’t you agree? If you don’t agree, you are saying that in order to be bahai, one must confess certain things about God, one must give up past beliefs because they are considered wrong in bahai. Or you could be absolutely inclusive.

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

I would really appreciate a Baha’i poster addressing this point.

The Bahais, like the Church, consider that the scriptures have multiple meanings, and that these meaning unfold over time, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. This applies also to the Bahai community’s understanding of its own scriptures. We would not suppose that the understandings of the first Bahais in the West, for example, were definitive, even if they come from Bahais who sat at the feet of Abdu’l-Baha on many occasions. The first generation grasped a great truth, but they often mixed up the details in a grand way. This is inevitable when religious truth has been completely transformed: it is easy to get a few bits of the jigsaw and put them together the wrong way. It follows that the “original” meaning (i.e., early interpretation) cannot *a priori *be given priority over all other meanings, in every case.

The first Christians for example believed that Christ would return in their generation, and that the messianic promises as the Jews understood them (the rule of the chosen under a just King), would be literally fulfilled then. Early Bahais in the US believed and taught that the Most Great Peace was coming in 1917. This was based on arithmetic calculations and bad texts.

A reformer has a fair chance of being understood by those who want to understand, but a transformer must expect to be misunderstood, even by those who are nearest to him.

To give two examples of the inexhaustibly of scripture, Baha’u’llah writes in one case:

And now, concerning His words – “The sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give light, and the stars shall fall from heaven.” By the terms “sun” and “moon,” mentioned in the writings of the Prophets of God, is not meant solely the sun and moon of the visible universe. Nay rather, manifold are the meanings they have intended for these terms. In every instance they have attached to them a particular significance. Thus, by the “sun” in one sense is meant …
(The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 33)

and he goes on to explain some of those meaning, as they apply to us today. Abdu’l-Baha uses the same method:

Reflect also that in the short time since Bahá’u’lláh has appeared, people from all countries, nations and races have entered under the shadow of this Cause. Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians, Buddhists, Hindus and Persians all associate together with the greatest friendship and love, … This is **one of the meanings **of the companionship of the wolf and the lamb, the leopard and the kid, and the lion and the calf.
(Some Answered Questions, p. 64)

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Where was the holy spirit in guiding the early Christians and their interpretation of the scripture which contradicts teh bahai understanding? I can only conclude that if the bahai say they have teh holy spirit giving them the real gospel, then we must say the early church (those after the apostles) were denied the correct interpretation by the Holy spirit.

 

[tonyfish58]

Where was the holy spirit in guiding the early Christians and their interpretation of the scripture which contradicts the Baha’i understanding? I can only conclude that if the Baha’i say they have the holy spirit giving them the real gospel, then we must say the early church (those after the apostles) were denied the correct interpretation by the Holy spirit.

Denied or subject to Gods Will as foretold in Scripture?

But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. Daniel 12:4 King James Version (KJV)

There is lots of meaning to explore in scripture. The meaning may not have been that easy to conclude?

Regards Tony

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Denied or subject to Gods Will as foretold in Scripture?

But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. Daniel 12:4 King James Version (KJV)

There is lots of meaning to explore in scripture. The meaning may not have been that easy to conclude?

Regards Tony

Denied, because the early Christians interpreted scripture in a contradictory manner to that of bahai. It would be one thing for bahai to build upon what Christians said, but they blatantly contradict early Christianity.

 

[tonyfish58]

Denied, because the early Christians interpreted scripture in a contradictory manner to that of bahai. It would be one thing for bahai to build upon what Christians said, but they blatantly contradict early Christianity.

Why is not then all mankind Jews? Did not Christ Build on what was written in the old Testament?

Could not/did not the Jew use these very same accusations?

Have not these same accusations been hurled at Muhammad? may God forgive us all!

The early believers would be “Gob Smacked” if they were to see what the world is like today. They did the best they could with what they had. God bless them all!

But now we have acquired knowledge they could only dream of and we can now draw different conclusions with this knowledge and look with new eyes and hear with new ears.

This is the Challenge of Baha’u’llah. if one wishes they can take up the challenge, if one wishes they do not have to.

…“The divine call of the celestial Herald from beyond the Veil of Glory, summoning mankind to renounce utterly all the things to which they cleave, is repugnant to their desire; and this is the cause of the bitter trials and violent commotions which have occurred. Consider the way of the people. They ignore these well-founded traditions, all of which have been fulfilled, and cling unto those of doubtful validity, and ask why these have not been fulfilled. And yet, those things which to them were inconceivable have been made manifest. The signs and tokens of the Truth shine even as the midday sun, and yet the people are wandering, aimlessly and perplexedly, in the wilderness of ignorance and folly. Notwithstanding all the verses of the Qur’án, and the recognized traditions, which are all indicative of a new Faith, a new Law, and a new Revelation, this generation still waiteth in expectation of beholding the promised One who should uphold the Law of the Muḥammadan Dispensation. The Jews and the Christians in like manner uphold the same contention”. reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KI/ki-8.html The Kitáb-i-Íqán

Regards Tony

 

[SteveVH]

The Bahais, like the Church, consider that the scriptures have multiple meanings, and that these meaning unfold over time, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. This applies also to the Bahai community’s understanding of its own scriptures. We would not suppose that the understandings of the first Bahais in the West, for example, were definitive, even if they come from Bahais who sat at the feet of Abdu’l-Baha on many occasions. The first generation grasped a great truth, but they often mixed up the details in a grand way. This is inevitable when religious truth has been completely transformed: it is easy to get a few bits of the jigsaw and put them together the wrong way. It follows that the “original” meaning (i.e., early interpretation) cannot *a priori *be given priority over all other meanings, in every case.

It can when one believes the promises Christ made concerning his Church, one those promises is that he would send the Holy Spirit to guide the Church into all truth. This is not a man-made institution. It is a divine institution.

 

[SteveVH]

Why is not then all mankind Jews? Did not Christ Build on what was written in the old Testament?

He fulfilled what was written in the Old Testament. It is called “salvation history”. He, of whom the prophets had spoken and for whom all mankind had been waiting since Adam and Eve, including Abraham and Moses. He had indeed come and dwelt among us. He left his Church to spread the kingdom of God. He said nothing of watching and waiting for a another to follow.

 

[SteveVH]

Denied or subject to Gods Will as foretold in Scripture?

I asked arthra this question but I will leave it out there for any Baha’i to answer. How do you know that the Bible is actually Scripture?