Baha'i V

[SteveVH]

So those that pierced Him will still partake in this resurrection and this new heaven and new earth?

All will be resurrected, and then the judgment comes. Everything will be laid bare; every thing we have done.

I was under the impression that these souls would have been judged in purgatory and prevented from witnessing His glory in the Resurrection?

I’m confused…

Yes, you are confused. We are not judged in purgatory. We are purified. Those in purgatory are assured of heaven upon completion of their purification. They have already been judged.

 

[SteveVH]

Steve, both Christians and Baha’is accept Jesus as the Messiah foretold in the OT, but followers of Judaism do not and reject the entire NT out of hand. We could explain the allegorical meanings to a Jew, but I’m pretty sure they would demand a very literal reading. I pulled a list of Jewish objections to Jesus from a random Jewish website:

And why are we discussing Jewish objections to Jesus? I’m sure you could pull a pretty good list from Atheists as well.

 

[daler]

And why are we discussing Jewish objections to Jesus? I’m sure you could pull a pretty good list from Atheists as well.

Steve,
. Atheists have there own set of veils which blind them. Yet they are also free of the literal dogma which others cling to. Ultimately, it comes down to: “Let them who have eyes see”, and "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’”

. Now I know that you don’t like metaphorical meanings, but the above is not about literal eyes and ears. Hence, a spiritual meaning of “eyes” and “ears”.

. I mention this directly as being relevant to a literal interpretation of “new heaven” and “new earth”

. Please give your thoughtful comment to the above after prayerful consideration.

. God bless you, my friend.

 

[tonyfish58]

And why are we discussing Jewish objections to Jesus? I’m sure you could pull a pretty good list from Atheists as well.

Steve VH - Jewish objections to Jesus are another important aspect to the subject of “Return”. It is a lesson for us all to heed.

Here is a passage from the Kitab-i-Iquan, The type I have done in Bold is interesting;

After the denials and denunciations which they uttered, and unto which We have referred, they protested saying: “No independent Prophet, according to our Scriptures, should arise after Moses and Jesus to abolish the Law of divine Revelation. Nay, he that is to be made manifest must needs fulfil the Law.” Thereupon this verse, indicative of all the divine themes, and testifying to the truth that the flow of the grace of the All-Merciful can never cease, was revealed: “And Joseph came to you aforetime with clear tokens, but ye ceased not to doubt of the message with which He came to you, until, when He died, ye said, ‘God will by no means raise up a Messenger after Him.’ Thus God misleadeth him who is the transgressor the doubter.” Therefore, understand from this verse and know of a certainty that the people in every age, clinging to a verse of the Book, have uttered such vain and absurd sayings, contending that no Prophet should again be made manifest to the world. Even as the Christian divines who, holding fast to the verse of the Gospel to which We have already referred, have sought to explain that the law of the Gospel shall at no time be annulled, and that no independent Prophet shall again be made manifest, unless He confirmeth the law of the Gospel. Most of the people have become afflicted with the same spiritual disease.

Even as thou dost witness how the people of the Qur’án, like unto the people of old, have allowed the words “Seal of the Prophets” to veil their eyes. And yet, they themselves testify to this verse: “None knoweth the interpretation thereof but God and they that are well-grounded in knowledge.” And when He Who is well-grounded in all knowledge, He Who is the Mother, the Soul, the Secret, and the Essence thereof, revealeth that which is the least contrary to their desire, they bitterly oppose Him and shamelessly deny Him. These thou hast already heard and witnessed. Such deeds and words have been solely instigated by leaders of religion, they that worship no God but their own desire, who bear allegiance to naught but gold, who are wrapt in the densest veils of learning, and who, enmeshed by its obscurities, are lost in the wilds of error. Even as the Lord of being hath explicitly declared: “What thinkest thou? He who hath made a God of his passions, and whom God causeth to err through a knowledge, and whose ears and whose heart He hath sealed up, and over whose sight He hath cast a veil—who, after his rejection by God, shall guide such a one? Will ye not then be warned?” Link - reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KI/ki-7.html

Regards Tony

 

[tonyfish58]

And why are we discussing Jewish objections to Jesus? I’m sure you could pull a pretty good list from Atheists as well.

SteveVH - It may be of interest the the same Table starts off with the same warnings the are posted above at the end of the Tablet. This is why we will refer you back to the Rejection of the Revelation of Christ by the Jews.

“Consider the past. How many, both high and low, have, at all times, yearningly awaited the advent of the Manifestations of God in the sanctified persons of His chosen Ones. How often have they expected His coming, how frequently have they prayed that the breeze of divine mercy might blow, and the promised Beauty step forth from behind the veil of concealment, and be made manifest to all the world. And whensoever the portals of grace did open, and the clouds of divine bounty did rain upon mankind, and the light of the Unseen did shine above the horizon of celestial might, they all denied Him, and turned away from His face—the face of God Himself. Refer ye, to verify this truth, to that which hath been recorded in every sacred Book”.

Regards Tony

 

[daler]

And why are we discussing Jewish objections to Jesus? I’m sure you could pull a pretty good list from Atheists as well.

Steve,
. An alternative discussion idea:

Habakkuk 2:14 -

. “For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of Baha’u’llah (the glory of the Lord), as the waters cover the sea. …”

This prophecy is being fulfilled every time we quote the Writings!!!

. “A mechanism of world inter-communication will be devised, embracing the whole planet, freed from national hindrances and restrictions, and functioning with marvellous swiftness and perfect regularity.” Shoghi Effendi

Shoghi.
Haifa, Palestine,
March 11, 1936.

 

[daler]

Really? Where does the Book of Revelation state that its meaning will not be revealed until the end? Much of what is in Revelation has already happened. Some of it is happening now, in every Catholic Mass on the planet, every day and every hour. I don’t remember any passage that says it won’t be revealed until the end. Maybe you could point me to it. I could be wrong.

As to the return of Christ, you would be correct which is why Baha’u’llah cannot be Him. One thing interesting in the Book of Revelation to which you might want to pay attention is this:

Well, I don’t agree with your premise, however, you claim that the end has come already, do you not? The clincher is that very few people ever saw Baha’u’llah and the world is certainly not mourning him. Most people have never heard of him even in this age of communication technology. See Revelation 1:7 above.

I have no idea what you are trying to say here. What am I dancing around?

Dear brother in Christ,
. Revelation directly reaffirms what Daniel said, which was sealed to him and not revealed in Revelation. The same numbers referring to the time of the end appear in both, which meaning was indeed "sealed’. Refer especially to Daniel, to whom Jesus specifically referred:

Mattew 24:15 “Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand)” Jesus speaking to “When shall these things be and what shall be the time of thy coming?”

. Well, my friend, no one is obligated to belief anything, whether Daniel had visions of when the crucifixion of Christ would occur after 70 weeks = 490 years following the decree of Artaxerxes in 457 BC, which accurately predicted “Messiah shall be cut off” in 34 AD, or thereabouts. Or his vision of 2300 days (years) from that starting point the time of the end would be fulfilled, which was 2300 - 457 = 1843 + 1 (no year zero) = 1844. Or that time (360) + times (720) plus 1/2 time (180) = 1260 AH = 1844

Nor are we obligated that John had visions of 3 1/2 days (years) x 360 = 1260 years, or that 42 months x 30 = 1260 AH, thus proving Muhammad in prophecy, since 1260 AH is 1844 AD

Nor are we obligated to believe that Jeremiah was right when he said the “Lord shall set His throne in Elam”, which is where Daniel had his above vision. Elam is SW Persia, where in 1844 AD (1260 AH) The Lord did just that when the Bab appeared, announcing the coming of Baha’u’llah in 1863 AD, which is 1280 AH (again see Daniel).

We aren’t obligated to believe anything, but I testify to the truth of all of the above, including Daniel, Jeremiah, John (I know too much to keep silent)

God bless you abundantly, my dear brother

---

 

[SteveVH]

Steve,
. Atheists have there own set of veils which blind them. Yet they are also free of the literal dogma which others cling to. Ultimately, it comes down to: “Let them who have eyes see”, and "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’”

. Now I know that you don’t like metaphorical meanings, but the above is not about literal eyes and ears. Hence, a spiritual meaning of “eyes” and “ears”.

I have no problem at all with metaphor, when the text is written in metaphor. What I have a problem with is the Baha’i preoccupation with metaphor when the text is not written in that genre, and the rejection of any of the other senses of Scripture.

What I have the greatest problem with, however, is that the Baha’i have taken our Holy Book and then presume to know more about it than the Church who produced it. I have already pointed out, on more than one occasion, that we were there when Christ was there. Our beliefs come directly from those who walked and lived with Jesus. They were the ones who knew and explained what Christ meant. Our Scriptures were then chosen based upon what we had learned from those witnesses to Christ’s life. To presume then, that one can simply pick up this collection of books, written over a very long time, with many different human authors, in a time and place and culture 2000 years removed from our own and arrive at an interpretation superior to the Church that produced it, is both arrogant and foolish.

I would really appreciate a Baha’i poster addressing this point.

 

[SteveVH]

Dear brother in Christ,
. Revelation directly reaffirms what Daniel said, which was sealed to him and not revealed in Revelation. The same numbers referring to the time of the end appear in both, which meaning was indeed "sealed’. Refer especially to Daniel, to whom Jesus specifically referred:

Mattew 24:15 “Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand)” Jesus speaking to “When shall these things be and what shall be the time of thy coming?”

. Well, my friend, no one is obligated to belief anything, whether Daniel had visions of when the crucifixion of Christ would occur after 70 weeks = 490 years following the decree of Artaxerxes in 457 BC, which accurately predicted “Messiah shall be cut off” in 34 AD, or thereabouts. Or his vision of 2300 days (years) from that starting point the time of the end would be fulfilled, which was 2300 - 457 = 1843 + 1 (no year zero) = 1844. Or that time (360) + times (720) plus 1/2 time (180) = 1260 AH = 1844

Nor are we obligated that John had visions of 3 1/2 days (years) x 360 = 1260 years, or that 42 months x 30 = 1260 AH, thus proving Muhammad in prophecy, since 1260 AH is 1844 AD

Nor are we obligated to believe that Jeremiah was right when he said the “Lord shall set His throne in Elam”, which is where Daniel had his above vision. Elam is SW Persia, where in 1844 AD (1260 AH) The Lord did just that when the Bab appeared, announcing the coming of Baha’u’llah in 1863 AD, which is 1280 AH (again see Daniel).

We aren’t obligated to believe anything, but I testify to the truth of all of the above, including Daniel, Jeremiah, John (I know too much to keep silent)

God bless you abundantly, my dear brother

Daler, I refuse to discuss Scripture by mathematical formula. Every quack that has ever predicted the end of the world has gone through similar machinations and they have been wrong each and every time.

 

[arthra]

Steve wrote:

What I have the greatest problem with, however, is that the Baha’i have taken our Holy Book and then presume to know more about it than the Church who produced it. I have already pointed out, on more than one occasion, that we were there when Christ was there. Our beliefs come directly from those who walked and lived with Jesus. They were the ones who knew and explained what Christ meant. Our Scriptures were then chosen based upon what we had learned from those witnesses to Christ’s life. To presume then, that one can simply pick up this collection of books, written over a very long time, with many different human authors, in a time and place and culture 2000 years removed from our own and arrive at an interpretation superior to the Church that produced it, is both arrogant and foolish.

I would really appreciate a Baha’i poster addressing this point.

My comment:

Since all scriptures we believe are inspired by God…including the Bible and the Qur’an … they are not the exclusive property on any one group, church, sect or school… rather they belong to the spiritual heritage of humanity as a whole…

***I ask God to open before thy face the doors of wisdom, to give thee a drink of the chalice overflowing with the wine of certainty, and to inspire thee with the mysteries of the Holy Book, so that thou mayest know the significances of vision and the reality of revelation, and all the hidden symbols of prophetic Scripture, such as those of Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel. * **

~ Abdu’l-Baha, Tablets of Abdu’l-Baha v2, p. 412

*The Invincible Power will indeed strengthen, the Holy Spirit will speak in thy mouth, the Word of God will be revealed in thy heart, the sound of the trumpet of the Lord will gladden thee, the light of unity will shine from thy brow, the doors of success and prosperity will be opened upon thy face and **the secrets of the Holy Books will be unfolded. **Then, at that time, thou shalt cry at the top of thy voice, saying: “Blessed I am for this great bounty! Blessed I am for this evident victory! Blessed I am for this power which could not be resisted by the powers of whomsoever is upon the earth!” *

~ Abdu’l-Baha, Tablets of Abdu’l-Baha v1, p. 160

*To be brief: The mysteries of the Holy Books are many and require explanation and elucidation. I hope thine insight will be so opened that the divine mysteries may become manifest and clear.
*
~ Abdu’l-Baha, Tablets of Abdu’l-Baha v1, p. 192

*It is my hope that the breaths of the Holy Spirit will so be breathed into your hearts that your tongues will disclose the mysteries, and **set forth and expound the inner meanings of the Holy Books; **that the friends will become physicians, and will, through the potent medicine of the heavenly Teachings, heal the long-standing diseases that afflict the body of this world; that they will make the blind to see, the deaf to hear, the dead to come alive; that they will awaken those who are sound asleep.

Rest ye assured that the confirmations of the Holy Spirit will descend upon you, and that the armies of the Abha Kingdom will grant you the victory.*

~ Abdu’l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu’l-Baha, p. 274

 

[SteveVH]

Since all scriptures we believe are inspired by God…including the Bible and the Qur’an … they are not the exclusive property on any one group, church, sect or school… rather they belong to the spiritual heritage of humanity as a whole…

This is a great place to focus our discussion, at least for the moment. Arthra, how do you know that the Christian Bible is inspired by God? Just in your own words. How do you know it is Scripture? We could say the same about the Quran, but lets focus on the Bible for the sake of discussion.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

The thing about the bahai interpretation of scripture is that it is attempting to find out what the authors themselves said. Its solely an attempt to find and discover the secret bahai teachings within the new testament that have apparently been unknown since the begining. For instance Bahai do not attempt to look at jewish beliefs of the day concerning ressurection and insist that it must be a spiritual ressurection as the gnostics preached it, pharisees from all we know believed in the ressurection as the final end time ressurection of all the righteous and unrighteous towards a new heaven and new earth. No one in the second century confused the word ressurection to mean a spiritual assenscion into heaven, that only started appearing in the second century.

It must also be pointed out how bold the bahai claim is, that they have the right interpretation of scripture. That is we have the writings and examples of those whom immediately followed the apostles (and I have given examples of their writings which contradict bahai, only to have it ignored), and by the bahai standard (even though they deny this) they got it all wrong. The immediate next generation of Christians after the death of the apostle john somehow corrupted the Christian tradition universally away from the true bahai interpretation of the new testament.

This I find to be the most rediculous aspect of bahai.

 

[SteveVH]

Steve,
. An alternative discussion idea:

Habakkuk 2:14 -

. “For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of Baha’u’llah (the glory of the Lord), as the waters cover the sea. …”

This prophecy is being fulfilled every time we quote the Writings!!!

That’s good to know. I wondered why few of the Baha’i posters actually answer a question themselves. It is usually “Baha’u’llah addressed that here…” The problem is that it is overkill and everyone’s eyes begin to glaze over. It also makes one wonder if the primary purpose for being here is to proselytize.

 

[SteveVH]

The thing about the bahai interpretation of scripture is that it is attempting to find out what the authors themselves said. Its solely an attempt to find and discover the secret bahai teachings within the new testament that have apparently been unknown since the begining. For instance Bahai do not attempt to look at jewish beliefs of the day concerning ressurection and insist that it must be a spiritual ressurection as the gnostics preached it, pharisees from all we know believed in the ressurection as the final end time ressurection of all the righteous and unrighteous towards a new heaven and new earth. No one in the second century confused the word ressurection to mean a spiritual assenscion into heaven, that only started appearing in the second century.

It must also be pointed out how bold the bahai claim is, that they have the right interpretation of scripture. That is we have the writings and examples of those whom immediately followed the apostles (and I have given examples of their writings which contradict bahai, only to have it ignored), and by the bahai standard (even though they deny this) they got it all wrong. The immediate next generation of Christians after the death of the apostle john somehow corrupted the Christian tradition universally away from the true bahai interpretation of the new testament.

This I find to be the most rediculous aspect of bahai.

And I as well.

 

[daler]

I have no problem at all with metaphor, when the text is written in metaphor. What I have a problem with is the Baha’i preoccupation with metaphor when the text is not written in that genre, and the rejection of any of the other senses of Scripture.

What I have the greatest problem with, however, is that the Baha’i have taken our Holy Book and then presume to know more about it than the Church who produced it. I have already pointed out, on more than one occasion, that we were there when Christ was there. Our beliefs come directly from those who walked and lived with Jesus. They were the ones who knew and explained what Christ meant. Our Scriptures were then chosen based upon what we had learned from those witnesses to Christ’s life. To presume then, that one can simply pick up this collection of books, written over a very long time, with many different human authors, in a time and place and culture 2000 years removed from our own and arrive at an interpretation superior to the Church that produced it, is both arrogant and foolish.

I would really appreciate a Baha’i poster addressing this point.

Steve,
. Thank you, as always, when you state so clearly your thoughts and understanding, all of which are very valid. May we always be direct and courteous in the exchange of our side of the elephant.

. As the Books were sealed until the time of the end, when the Lord returns, it is logical to assume that when the Lord returns, to unseal the Books, that those souls who have turned to Him, now understand the meanings which were sealed. That these same souls should have a different understanding from those who have not yet the benefit of this new perspective it is also logical that they differ in their understandings of the symbolic words and allusions revealed unto Daniel and John, and other of the Prophets. Is this not true?

. Further, Baha’is absolutely do not reject every sense of Scripture, but agree with most all of it and stand very much alongside you in the Spirit of the Scripture. Such as to love your enemies, be good Samaritans, shelter the homeless, feed the poor, and very much honor the blessed work you do. What a bounty to be in your company.

. Souls such as Mother Theresa, and many others, are so very humbling in their work. I understand that after seeing so much suffering that she even expressed her being upset with God, wondering how He could allow it. God bless her noble soul, and all of those who assisted her, and others like her. She truly is a saint, and she is not alone.

 

[daler]

This is a great place to focus our discussion, at least for the moment. Arthra, how do you know that the Christian Bible is inspired by God? Just in your own words. How do you know it is Scripture? We could say the same about the Quran, but lets focus on the Bible for the sake of discussion.

Steve,

I hope you don't mind my telling a bit of my sense of this, but for me, every time I remember hearing the Lord's Prayer in Church I would get the goosebumps.   And when I would read the words of Jesus, like in the red letter editions of the Bible, there would just be something about how He would speak and answer.   It was even as the man said in John 7:46

. “No one ever spoke like this man!”

. For me, it has never been about the loaves and fishes, etc. It has always been about the effect His words produced upon my spirit. There is a kind of resonance, like a tuning fork.

. Did you ever see and hear how a tuning fork of a certain pitch, say a “C”, when rung and put near another C tuning fork will start it ringing without it being struck? Its like that. Something just rings true about it. I would attribute that to the power of the Holy Spirit. When we are open to the Holy Spirit, He speaks to our souls…

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

. Souls such as Mother Theresa, and many others, are so very humbling in their work. I understand that after seeing so much suffering that she even expressed her being upset with God, wondering how He could allow it. God bless her noble soul, and all of those who assisted her, and others like her. She truly is a saint, and she is not alone.

How do you respect her that worshipped something that was not God? Ie Jesus.

 

[daler]

That’s good to know. I wondered why few of the Baha’i posters actually answer a question themselves. It is usually “Baha’u’llah addressed that here…” The problem is that it is overkill and everyone’s eyes begin to glaze over. It also makes one wonder if the primary purpose for being here is to proselytize.

Steve,
Sorry to give you that impression. I respect you and enjoy the dialogue. I think that people have a hunger, or need, to talk about such things as we discuss here. Sometimes we may serve the same food to often, and others long for something new to taste.

I guess for some of the Baha’is, we find our own words so very inadequate. Its like you want to give your girlfriend a beautiful diamond ring, but she says, “No. I want you to make me one.”

So you go out into the shed and get out your little hammer and some coal and hammer away, then walk up to her with this sheepish look on your face and say, "Here honey. Its the best I can do… ;-p

 

[daler]

How do you respect her that worshipped something that was not God? Ie Jesus.

. And the King shall answer and say unto them, “Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto Me…”

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

. And the King shall answer and say unto them, “Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto Me…”

Christ also said you must worship in spirit and in truth. God of the old testament certaintly forbade idolatry and certaintly the worship of a man who is not God is idolatry. I just don’t understand how you as bahai emphasize the social and practical aspects over the truth of the matter. You should be like the muslim and condemn Mother Teresa and all Chrisitans for worshipping a man, but you don’t seemingly care. Or if you care you are so not wanting to offend that you don’t say anything about it.