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eddie_too
Guest
i am not a literalist any more than you are a complete sophist.
- Status
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eddie_too
Guest
Jesus Christ offers His life on the cross for my salvation and the salvation of all men and redeems mankind through His sacrifice.
Jesus establishes a Church so that the graces provided through His death and resurrection would be forever available to all future generations.
bahaullah lives to a ripe old age and dies a natural death.
bahaullah teaches that everything the apostles were taught by Jesus is wrong.
make no mistake about it, every apostle and every legitimate successor of the apostles taught that Jesus rose Himself from the tomb. they taught that they touched Jesus after the resurrection and ate food with Jesus after the resurrection.
the sheer audacity of bahaullah to pretend that these men did not know what they were taught nor what they had experienced reduces bahaullah to at best a misguided egotist and at worst to a self-serving opportunist.
the fact that people have fallen for the charade proves nothing.
you want to believe your disembodied soul is going to spend eternity never being at peace, i cannot stop you. but, i would not wish such a fate on anyone.
bahaullah is not the first to find the life, words, cross and resurrection of Jesus Christ to be a stumbling block. bahaullah will not be the last i am guessing.
for someone who obviously has little knowledge of the gospel of Christ to come here and try to school people who have thorough knowledge of that gospel about the true meaning of the gospel is clearly zealous but completely misguided.
Jesus establishes a Church so that the graces provided through His death and resurrection would be forever available to all future generations.
bahaullah lives to a ripe old age and dies a natural death.
bahaullah teaches that everything the apostles were taught by Jesus is wrong.
make no mistake about it, every apostle and every legitimate successor of the apostles taught that Jesus rose Himself from the tomb. they taught that they touched Jesus after the resurrection and ate food with Jesus after the resurrection.
the sheer audacity of bahaullah to pretend that these men did not know what they were taught nor what they had experienced reduces bahaullah to at best a misguided egotist and at worst to a self-serving opportunist.
the fact that people have fallen for the charade proves nothing.
you want to believe your disembodied soul is going to spend eternity never being at peace, i cannot stop you. but, i would not wish such a fate on anyone.
bahaullah is not the first to find the life, words, cross and resurrection of Jesus Christ to be a stumbling block. bahaullah will not be the last i am guessing.
for someone who obviously has little knowledge of the gospel of Christ to come here and try to school people who have thorough knowledge of that gospel about the true meaning of the gospel is clearly zealous but completely misguided.
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daler
Guest
Steve, dear friend, I don’t know how to put this to you, but those Christian scholars and theologians who agree with Abdul Baha now call themselves “Baha’is”And I don’t know of one Christian scholar or theologian that would agree with Mr. Abdul Baha. He bends everything to fit his preconceived notion, nothing more. It does not appear that he has addressed the fact that there will be no more death or suffering or mourning.
The heavenly Jerusalem is the dwelling of God. When it comes down God will dwell among us once again; not a “Manifestation of God”, but God. When God dwells with us there will be no more tears, suffering or death. Of course the New Jerusalem is not a city of stone, mortar, bricks and wood. It is heaven meeting earth. We actually already participate in the New Jerusalem each and every time we attend Mass.
As to the death and suffering, this is the death of unbelief and the suffering of being distant from God, and mourning because of it.
In order to build a City, there needs to be a blueprint. We “have” the blueprint, and are building at full speed ahead the Administrative Order of Baha’u’llah, fulfilling Jesus’ promise of “Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven…”
All nations are already flowing unto Mt Carmel and visiting the House of the God of Jacob. I know… I’ve been there… twice! and heard with my own ears people from all over the world saying: “Come. Let us go up to the mountain of the Lord” Mt “Carmel” literally means the “mountain of the Lord” I have been inside the Cave of Elijah and prayed. It is about a two mile walk north of the Shrine of the Bab. Tuckered me out, too! For it was nearly a hundred degrees out. But worth every step and drop of sweat, I’ll tell ya…
I wish I could get my old friend Father Klebel, er… thats Dr Klebel now, to make the trip, but at 80+ years and getting frail, he says he’s gonna wait until he gets to heaven to go. He is a former Catholic Priest, who gained a doctorate of Psychology to help counsel women in prison. He’s also a Baha’i scholar.
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SteveVH
Guest
Yes, of course they are. I find it amazing that, if they were recognized in the Christian world as a Christian scholar or theologian, they would just go quietly into the night without any notice. Do you have a name or two?
Sorry, this city was built by God. He doesn’t need a blueprint.
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SteveVH
Guest
Daler, the Bible is certainly full of metaphor, allegory, poetic writing and the like, no doubt about it. It also contains things that are very literal. The task is to uncover the message that the author is trying to convey.
You must remember that we are not limited to interpreting a book 2000 years removed from our time and culture, as you are. We were there. We received the Truth from the Apostles who walked and lived with Christ. Our doctrines were in place and being practiced throughout the world before the New Testament was even written or assembled. The sacred texts were chosen depending on how they measured up to the truth that the Church already possessed. It was intended to be used in our liturgies, and is not the entire story.
So when we have someone come along 150 years ago, barely a blip on the historical radar screen, and tell us that we don’t know what we are talking about, it becomes a little tedious after awhile.
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arthra
Guest
Steve wrote:
Our doctrines were in place and being practiced throughout the world before the New Testament was even written or assembled. The sacred texts were chosen depending on how they measured up to the truth that the Church already possessed. It was intended to be used in our liturgies, and is not the entire story.
My comment:
Thanks for your post… So the church selected what it deemed appropriate to fit the doctrines it already possessed before the Gospels were written … that may be .
If say a “Gospel” was found composed by James the Just in Aramaic with the Logia of Jesus would it have any authority for you above what the church composed?
I think for Baha’is we would accept as authoritative what was directly revealed by the Manifestation … that would be primary. So if the Manifestation revealed it and it was written in His hand or He approved say what a secretary wrote down by His Seal it would be authoritative.
What others composed later would have secondary importance… and if in conflict with a primary revealed authority would be discarded.
What people recalled passed down as an oral tradition would by of interest perhaps but not authoritative at least for us anyway…
Our doctrines were in place and being practiced throughout the world before the New Testament was even written or assembled. The sacred texts were chosen depending on how they measured up to the truth that the Church already possessed. It was intended to be used in our liturgies, and is not the entire story.
My comment:
Thanks for your post… So the church selected what it deemed appropriate to fit the doctrines it already possessed before the Gospels were written … that may be .
If say a “Gospel” was found composed by James the Just in Aramaic with the Logia of Jesus would it have any authority for you above what the church composed?
I think for Baha’is we would accept as authoritative what was directly revealed by the Manifestation … that would be primary. So if the Manifestation revealed it and it was written in His hand or He approved say what a secretary wrote down by His Seal it would be authoritative.
What others composed later would have secondary importance… and if in conflict with a primary revealed authority would be discarded.
What people recalled passed down as an oral tradition would by of interest perhaps but not authoritative at least for us anyway…
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tonyfish58
Guest
Steve - George Townsend springs to mind - He has written a few books that I find the greatest help for people from a Christian background. Well worth pursuing. I have put a link to His story and one of His books Below;
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Townshend_%28Bah%C3%A1%27%C3%AD%29
bahairesearch.com/english/Baha%27i/Baha%27i_Studies/George_Ronald/Heart_of_the_Gospel.aspx
Regards Tony
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Nick44
Guest
Dear rinnie,
there is no teaching I’ve ever seen about any kind of ‘exclusive’ anything for a Baha’i. For the true flavor of the Faith’s intent, here is the reply of Abdu’l-Baha to a Christian lady who had written him:…“Thou didst begin thy letter with a blessed phrase, saying: ‘I am a Christian.’ O would that all were truly Christian! It 30 is easy to be a Christian on the tongue, but hard to be a true one. Today some five hundred million souls are Christian, but the real Christian is very rare: he is that soul from whose comely face there shineth the splendour of Christ, and who showeth forth the perfections of the Kingdom; this is a matter of great moment, for to be a Christian is to embody every excellence there is. I hope that thou, too, shalt become a true Christian. Praise thou God that at last, through the divine teachings, thou hast obtained both sight and insight to the highest degree, and hast become firmly rooted in certitude and faith. It is my hope that others as well will achieve illumined eyes and hearing ears, and attain to everlasting life: that these many rivers, each flowing along in diverse and separated beds, will find their way back to the circumambient sea, and merge together and rise up in a single wave of surging oneness; that the unity of truth, through the power of God, will make these illusory differences to vanish away. This is the one essential: for if unity be gained, all other problems will disappear of themselves.
O honoured lady! In accordance with the divine teachings in this glorious dispensation we should not belittle anyone and call him ignorant, saying: ‘You know not, but I know’. Rather, we should look upon others with respect, and when attempting to explain and demonstrate, we should speak as if we are investigating the truth, saying: ‘Here these things are before us. Let us investigate to determine where and in what form the truth can be found.’ The teacher should not consider himself as learned and others ignorant. Such a thought breedeth pride, and pride is not conducive to influence. The teacher should not see in himself any superiority; he should speak with the utmost kindliness, lowliness and humility, for such speech exerteth influence and educateth the souls. 31
O honoured lady! For a single purpose were the Prophets, each and all, sent down to earth; for this was Christ made manifest, for this did Bahá’u’lláh raise up the call of the Lord: that the world of man should become the world of God, this nether realm the Kingdom, this darkness light, this satanic wickedness all the virtues of heaven—and unity, fellowship and love be won for the whole human race, that the organic unity should reappear and the bases of discord be destroyed and life everlasting and grace everlasting become the harvest of mankind…” (Selections From the Writings of Abdu’l-Baha pg, 29-31)
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daler
Guest
Steve,
. Much that was revealed to Daniel was “sealed” to him. The visions of John the Revelator were also sealed to Him. The meaning of these visions and prophecies was to be revealed “at the time of the end”, not during the time of the Apostles.
. Even Jesus the Christ stated, “No man knoweth the hour. Not the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.”
. So here is the clincher. When the time of the end comes (known only to the Father), and the books are unsealed, the meaning of all of these metaphors and prophecies are revealed… Then, and “Not” before, my friend.
. I really wouldn’t try to dance around that which is clearly and unequivocally stated in the Holy Bible by claiming that “anyone” could bypass the above, or that anyone before “the time of the end” could ever hope to do so.
. "Know then that it behoveth thine eminence to ponder from the outset these questions in thy heart: What hath prompted the divers peoples and kindreds of the earth to reject the Apostles whom God hath sent unto them in His might and power, whom He hath raised up to exalt His Cause and ordained to be the Lamps of eternity within the Niche of His oneness? For what reason have the people turned aside from them, disputed about them, risen against and contended with them? On what grounds have they refused to acknowledge their apostleship and authority, nay, denied their truth and reviled their persons, even slaying or banishing them?
. O thou who hast set foot in the wilderness of knowledge and taken abode within the ark of wisdom! Not until thou hast grasped the mysteries concealed in that which We shall relate unto thee canst thou hope to attain to the stations of faith and certitude in the Cause of God and in those who are the Manifestations of His Cause, the Daysprings of His Command, the Treasuries of His revelation, and the Repositories of His knowledge. Shouldst thou fail in this, thou wouldst be numbered with them that have not striven for the Cause of God, nor inhaled the fragrance of faith from the raiment of certitude, nor scaled the heights of the divine unity, nor yet recognized the stations of divine singleness within the Embodiments of praise and the Essences of sanctity.
. Strive then, O My brother, to apprehend this matter, that the veils may be lifted from the face of thy heart and that thou mayest be reckoned among them whom God hath graced with such penetrating vision as to behold the most subtle realities of His dominion, to fathom the mysteries of His kingdom, to perceive the signs of His transcendent Essence in this mortal world, and to attain a station wherein one seeth no distinction amongst His creatures and findeth no flaw in the creation of the heavens and the earth."
. Gems of Divine Mysteries . Baha’u’llah
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SteveVH
Guest
Short answer, no. It might be very interesting reading and may have many things that are beautiful and true. I could say the same about many Baha’i writings, but it has not been determined by the Church to be a divinely inspired text so it would not carry the same weight and I would be very cautious in reading it.
I think we would follow the same protocol, relatively speaking.
Tradition (with a capital “T”} is very misunderstood by those outside of the Catholic Church. The word cannot be used with the modern meaning (like turkey on Thanksgiving) and it is not simply an oral passing down of information. My turn for a quote from our Catechism:What people recalled passed down as an oral tradition would by of interest perhaps but not authoritative at least for us anyway…
*"This living transmission, accomplished in the Holy Spirit, is called Tradition, since it is distinct from Sacred Scripture, though closely connected to it. Through Tradition, “the Church, in her doctrine, life, and worship perpetuates and transmits to every generation all that she herself is, all that she believes.” “The sayings of the holy Fathers are a witness to the life-giving presence of this Tradition, showing how its riches are poured out in the practice and life of the Church, in her belief and her prayer.”
The Father’s self-communication made through his Word in the Holy Spirit, remains present and active in the Church: “God, who spoke in the past, continues to converse with the Spouse of his beloved Son. And the Holy Spirit, through whom the living voice of the Gospel rings out in the Church—and through her in the world—leads believers to the full truth, and makes the Word of Christ dwell in them in all its richness.”* (CCC par 78-79)
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SteveVH
Guest
Really? Where does the Book of Revelation state that its meaning will not be revealed until the end? Much of what is in Revelation has already happened. Some of it is happening now, in every Catholic Mass on the planet, every day and every hour. I don’t remember any passage that says it won’t be revealed until the end. Maybe you could point me to it. I could be wrong.
As to the return of Christ, you would be correct which is why Baha’u’llah cannot be Him. One thing interesting in the Book of Revelation to which you might want to pay attention is this:
“Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.” (Revelation 1:7)
This should put to rest any illusions that the clouds mean obscurity and only a few will recognize him when he comes again. Indeed, every eye will see him and all peoples will mourn because of him. Do you know why they will mourn, daler?
Well, I don’t agree with your premise, however, you claim that the end has come already, do you not? The clincher is that very few people ever saw Baha’u’llah and the world is certainly not mourning him. Most people have never heard of him even in this age of communication technology. See Revelation 1:7 above.
I have no idea what you are trying to say here. What am I dancing around?
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daler
Guest
Steve,
. Always with respect to your integrity and the sincerity of your views, I wanted to say it is after 1 pm and I’ve just scanned Revelation, but am so tired now, and will attempt to give a proper answer when rested. Roughly (very roughly) please read, if you will, the Book of Revelation, noting the many times references are made to “sealed”, and in particular Rev chp 10:4
. "And when the seven thunders uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, “Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered and write them not”
. (So tired now, please forgive me) the many references to 1260, 42 months (42 x 30 = 1260) and the 3 1/2 days (same as Daniel’s 3 1/2 times - = 3 X 360 + 180 = 1260)
Each day in prophecy is a year, hence these are 1260 years. The year 1844AD is the year 1260 AH, the year that the Bab set His throne in Elam (SW Persia), as prophecy of Daniel and Jeremiah indicate the time (1844) and place: "the Lord shall set His throne in Elam) Jer 49: 36…
i am falling asleep, my friend zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz plunk!
S
Servant19
Guest
Hi Steve,
For me, this passage from Revelation proves to me without a doubt that the signs of His Second Coming have spiritual significance only.
It says that “even those who pierced Him” will see Him. Those that do see Him have recognized Him. Those that pierced Him are no longer in this world to see Him with physical eyes. They are seeing Him as souls, in the next world, having shed the fanaticism, veils of ignorance and ego, they, having pierced Him in this world, can finally, with spiritual eyes see Him.
As to those who are awaiting to see Him in this world, with physical eyes, He verily, is very much veiled in the clouds. For self, ego and tradition are all factors which remove the clarity of spiritual vision to see Him. Does that not make sense to you at all?
For me it’s clear as a cloudless day with the sun shining perfectly upon my brow.
Those who pierced Him are now witness to Him in His Second Coming, for “before Abraham was, I am”
God bless
S
Servant19
Guest
Just an addendum,
The mourning comes from those who have failed to lift the clouds of attachment, self and man-made imitations to see Jesus shining His light upon them also.
Those that have failed to recognize are on this day mourning in the spiritual realm, as souls, who, upon the removal of the clouds of self, suddenly recognized Him, yet have been amongst the lost to do His Will while they were free to do so as physical human beings.
“Then shall two be in the field, the one shall be taken and the other left”
The mourning comes from those who have failed to lift the clouds of attachment, self and man-made imitations to see Jesus shining His light upon them also.
Those that have failed to recognize are on this day mourning in the spiritual realm, as souls, who, upon the removal of the clouds of self, suddenly recognized Him, yet have been amongst the lost to do His Will while they were free to do so as physical human beings.
“Then shall two be in the field, the one shall be taken and the other left”
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Nick44
Guest
SteveVH; said:
Hi, Steve. “But blessed are your eyes because they see” (Matt 13:16) and (Luke 24:31)…“Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight.”
‘Seeing’ is not physical seeing but spiritually ‘seeing’ or recognizing and understanding. Eventually, ‘every eye’ will come to understanding. The return happens (with/in/on) clouds, which hide and obscure physical vision, but with spiritual sight, He is visible.
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SteveVH
Guest
Your insistence that every word of the Bible is to be taken metaphorically is leading you astray and blinding you to the truth. Those who pierced him will see him because they will be resurrected from their graves when he returns. And they will mourn when they see what they have done, and all of us will mourn because we have offended him through our sins which placed him upon the cross. We have all pierced him, Servant, and the realization of what we have done to Him who gave his very life for us will cause us to mourn, indeed. The Baha’i seem to ignore or overlook that verse.
I find it strange that you apply a metaphorical, spiritual, meaning to everything in the Bible but then have such a temporal view of how God will save us. In fact, in the Baha’i view God doesn’t “save” us at all. We will save ourselves by building a new society on earth. I think you are going to be in for a great surprise. When the heavenly Jerusalem descends upon us God himself will live with us; we will be his people and He will be our God. No human effort, with all the skill and knowledge and wisdom in the world can ever bring this about. Only God. And when it happens, no one will have to wonder if the Messiah is over here or over there.
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SteveVH
Guest
Yes, I have heard it before. See my post above.
T
tonyfish58
Guest
SeveVH - The closing Words of Baha’u’llah in the Kitab-i-Iquan give us insight into this issue. I have put some in bold type that are applicable statements;
It is evident unto thee that the Birds of Heaven and Doves of Eternity speak a twofold language. One language, the outward language, is devoid of allusions, is unconcealed and unveiled; that it may be a guiding lamp and a beaconing light whereby wayfarers may attain the heights of holiness, and seekers may advance into the realm of eternal reunion. Such are the unveiled traditions and the evident verses already mentioned. The other language is veiled and concealed, so that whatever lieth hidden in the heart of the malevolent may be made manifest and their innermost being be disclosed. Thus hath Ṣádiq, son of Muḥammad, spoken: “God verily will test them and sift them.” This is the divine standard, this is the Touchstone of God, wherewith He proveth His servants. None apprehendeth the meaning of these utterances except them whose hearts are assured, whose souls have found favour with God, and whose minds are detached from all else but Him. In such utterances, the literal meaning, as generally understood by the people, is not what hath been intended. Thus it is recorded: “Every knowledge hath seventy meanings, of which one only is known amongst the people. And when the Qá’im shall arise, He shall reveal unto men all that which remaineth.” He also saith: “We speak one word, and by it we intend one and seventy meanings; each one of these meanings we can explain.”
These things We mention only that the people may not be dismayed because of certain traditions and utterances, which have not yet been literally fulfilled, that they may rather attribute their perplexity to their own lack of understanding, and not to the non-fulfilment of the promises in the traditions, inasmuch as the meaning intended by the Imáms of the Faith is not known by this people, as evidenced by the traditions themselves. The people, therefore, must not allow such utterances to deprive them of the divine bounties, but should rather seek enlightenment from them who are the recognized Expounders thereof, so that the hidden mysteries may be unravelled, and be made manifest unto them.
We perceive none, however, amongst the people of the earth who, sincerely yearning for the Truth, seeketh the guidance of the divine Manifestations concerning the abstruse matters of his Faith. All are dwellers in the land of oblivion, and all are followers of the people of wickedness and rebellion. God will verily do unto them that which they themselves are doing, and will forget them even as they have ignored His Presence in His day. Such is His decree unto those that have denied Him, and such will it be unto them that have rejected His signs.
We conclude Our argument with His words—exalted is He—“And whoso shall withdraw from the remembrance of the Merciful, We will chain a Satan unto him, and he shall be his fast companion.” “And whoso turneth away from My remembrance, truly his shall be a life of misery.” Thus hath it been revealed aforetime, were ye to comprehend.
Revealed by the “Bá” and the “Há.”
Peace be upon him that inclineth his ear unto the melody of the Mystic Bird calling from the Sadratu’l-Muntahá! Glorified be our Lord, the Most High!
END
Link to Tablet - reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KI/ki-8.html
Have you noticed that every question you can ask re our Faith in God, has an answer penned by the Bab, Baha’u’llah or Abdul’Baha! Is this not an amazing thing?
Regards Tony
S
Servant19
Guest
So those that pierced Him will still partake in this resurrection and this new heaven and new earth?
I was under the impression that these souls would have been judged in purgatory and prevented from witnessing His glory in the Resurrection?
I’m confused…
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Nick44
Guest
Steve, both Christians and Baha’is accept Jesus as the Messiah foretold in the OT, but followers of Judaism do not and reject the entire NT out of hand. We could explain the allegorical meanings to a Jew, but I’m pretty sure they would demand a very literal reading. I pulled a list of Jewish objections to Jesus from a random Jewish website:
"Is there universal knowledge of one G-d? (Jeremiah 31:33, Zechariah 8:23, 14:9, 14:16, Isaiah 11:9, Isaiah 40:5, Zephaniah 3:9)
Were all Jews returned to Israel? (Isaiah 43:5-6, Isaiah 11:12, Isaiah 27:12-13)
Did he bring world peace? (Isaiah 11:6, Micah 4:3)
Were all weapons destroyed? (Ezekiel 39:9)
Did all warfare cease? (Isaiah 2:4)
Was the Temple rebuilt in it’s place? (Ezekiel 37:24-28 Ezekiel 40-48, Isaiah 33:20, Micah
4:1)
Did he bring physical restoration to all who are sick or disabled in any way? (Isaiah 35:5-6)
Was he preceded by Elijah? (Malachi 3:23-24– 4:4-5 in KJV)
Did the nations help the Jews materially? (Isaiah 60:5, 60:10-12, 61:6)
Does eternal joy and gladness characterize the Jewish nation? (Isaiah 51:11)
Are Jews sought for spiritual guidance? (Zechariah 8:23)
Is the Egyptian river dry yet? (Isaiah 11:15)
Do trees in Israel yield new fruit every month? (Ezekiel 47:12)
Did each tribe receive it’s inheritance? (Ezekiel 47:13-14)
Is the enemy buried? (Ezekiel 39:12)
Did he accomplish these tasks without tiring or failing? (Isaiah 42:4)
Did death cease? (Isaiah 25: 8)
Are the dead resurrected? (Isaiah 26:19, Daniel 12:2, Ezekiel 37:12-13)
Then no, Jesus is not messiah.
Also
they do not believe the Messiah is divine, but human only
Torah says that no one can die for another’s sins
they do not accept the virgin birth doctrine
they do not accept the “trinity” concept. It violates the Shema, the oneness of God
they never saw peace and deliverance in Israel due to the presence of Jesus
many do not trust Christians, after centuries of betrayal and persecution by them.
To properly explain why Yeshua did not fulfill all prophecies, one must be able to understand the divine plan for the missions Yeshua had."
See the difficulty?
My question to you, do you see any problem of explaining a lot of the OT by allegory, yet quickly dismiss any of the OT/NT allegorical explanations that are advanced from the Baha’i Faith?- Status