Baha'i V

[eddie_too]

i will try to respond but in actuality you are questioning God since He is the One who created men with an intellect and free will.

because God knows everything does not mean He wills evil. humans acting contrary to divine and natural law are doing evil.

apparently, God determined that the good that results from His creation of beings with intellects and free will is more important than the fact that those who refuse God’s grace will suffer for refusing it.

the Incarnation occurs because finite men cannot make recompense to an Infinite Being for their offenses against the Perfect Being.

if man cannot make recompense, then man is eternally in opposition to Perfect Being.

God did not create Adam and Eve with a fallen nature and sinful.

from my personal perspective, i am all in with God creating me, giving me an intellect and free will and giving me the Way, the Truth and the Life through which i can reside eternally in perfect union with Perfect Being.

i pray that all men might accept this greatest of all gifts. however, i do not think it reasonable that i should be denied union with Perfect Being because other men refuse the gift. that seems to me what you are trying to impose upon our infinite and eternal Creator. you speak and act as though what God has done is unreasonable in your eyes therefore God should better conform to your image of Him. you seem to think that the possibility that some men will to be at odds with their Creator for eternity demands that the Creator not create.

whereas, i accept that i am a sinner. i accept that i cannot, because i am a finite creature, adequately make compensation for my offenses against my infinite Creator. i accept that through the sacrifice of Perfect Being, in His human nature, complete satisfaction can be made to my Creator for all His creatures’ sins. i accept that the best response to my predicament as a sinner is to accept the forgiveness offered me by my Creator through the Infinite Sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross. i do not question God. i rejoice in His infinite mercy and perfect justice.

for God so loved the world, that He sent His ONLY begotten Son Jesus Christ that whosoever believes in Him might have eternal life.

 

[daler]

the bahai believe that they should work to establish a one world government. it is an essential element of their belief system. it is a totally political objective.

Eddie,

. “Of the increase of “His” government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment …”

Isaiah 9:7

. Your hatred of Baha’u’llah is blinding you, even as the Jews’ hatred of Jesus blinded them.

 

[daler]

i will try to respond but in actuality you are questioning God since He is the One who created men with an intellect and free will.

My friend,

. “in actuality you are questioning God since He is the One who created men with an intellect and free will.”

. You accept, and Baha’is accept, that they who questioned Jesus were: “in actuality questioning God since He is the One who created men with an intellect and free will.”

. Baha’is believe, that in this day, they who question Baha’u’llah are: “in actuality questioning God since He is the One who created men with an intellect and free will.”

. Its a tug of war between people who “believe this” or “believe that”, when in actuality,

. ““All the Prophets of God,” asserts Bahá’u’lláh in the Kitáb-i-Íqán, “abide in the same tabernacle, soar in the same heaven, are seated upon the same throne, utter the same speech, and proclaim the same Faith.” From the “beginning that hath no beginning,” these Exponents of the Unity of God and Channels of His incessant utterance have shed the light of the invisible Beauty upon mankind, and will continue, to the “end that hath no end,” to vouchsafe fresh revelations of His might and additional experiences of His inconceivable glory. To contend that any particular religion is final, that “all Revelation is ended, that the portals of Divine mercy are closed, that from the daysprings of eternal holiness no sun shall rise again, that the ocean of everlasting bounty is forever stilled, and that out of the Tabernacle of ancient glory the Messengers of God have ceased to be made manifest” would indeed be nothing less than sheer blasphemy.”

God bless you in the Holy Name of Jesus, my friend. Go with your understanding.

 

[eddie_too]

the bahai can try an justify it in any manner they choose.

however, the bahai believe it is their mission to institute a one world government. that is a political objective held by a political group.

taking Catholic Sacred Scripture out of context is a tried and true practice of charlatans and ego maniacs. as has been said many times before, even Satan can quote scripture.

if achieving a one world government turns your crank, the bahai would definitely welcome you.

 

[eddie_too]

the bahai have yet to provide a sound reason for believing bahaullah is a manifestation of God.

until they do that, bahaism is simply flowery rhetoric, fit more for the stage than for truth.

if opposition were proof of a self-proclaimed religious leader’s authority and authenticity, there would be literally hundreds of manifestations abounding in human history. as mentioned before, joseph smith proclaimed his selection as God’s messenger and he has certainly faced opposition and incredulity. the same is true of jim jones and david koresh in the 20th century. the same is true of bahaullah. opposition to a person’s teaching has nothing to do with the legitmacy of and truth contained in those teachings.

 

[daler]

daler;11351786:

Now, in casting the light and the mirror as two distinct entities in a metaphore you have provided I shall attempt to explain what we Christians are doing using this metaphore and assuming it is true. Take the mirror away from the light, the mirror shines no light and is nothing without the light. We Christians are not worshipping the light, we are worshipping the mirror who is without the light. We are saying the Mirror is the source of the light, we are saying the mirror is the light itself, the light that leads every man into salvation.

Do now realise the truely monstrous thing (as I think bahai should perceive it) we are doing from a bahai stand point? We are not using the mirror as medium to get to the light, we are saying the mirror is the direct source of the light. This should horrify you.

Ignatian,
. Can we analyse this just a bit further. I want to know if you can understand the logic of the Baha’i view in light of Jesus’ own words (from a Baha’i perspective, I mean. You don’t have to agree with it.) Please bear with me, if you will.

. You have said: “Take the mirror away from the light, the mirror shines no light and is nothing without the light…”

. Jesus has said: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does." >>> (Like a Mirror reflecting the Light from the Source [my words] )

. You have said: “We are saying the Mirror is the source of the light, we are saying the mirror is the light itself”

. Jesus has said: “These words are not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.”

. You have said: " the light that leads every man into salvation."

I can agree with this statement, for if we follow the Light, we do not stumble.
. We can stumble, however, into the Mirror, so to speak, as the Jews stumbled into Moses being the final Mirror, not recognizing that Jesus was a new Mirror, reflecting a fuller portion of the Light.

. You have said: “We are not using the mirror as medium to get to the light, we are saying the mirror is the direct source of the light.”

. Timothy (ch 2 vs 5) has said: “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus”

To which Baha’is say this is the station of the Manifestation, Who is the Mediator between the Unknowable God and mankind. At the time of the Manifestation of Jesus, “He” was that Mediator. At the time of Moses, He was that Mediator. At the time of Baha’u’llah, He is that Mediator. But the Mediator is not the “Source” of the Light

The “Source” of the Light is God, and God can say “I Am God” to mankind through the vehicle of His Mediator, His Mirror, which in Baha’i terminology is His Manifestation.

 

[daler]

daler;11351786:

Do now realise the truely monstrous thing (as I think bahai should perceive it) we are doing from a bahai stand point? We are not using the mirror as medium to get to the light, we are saying the mirror is the direct source of the light. This should horrify you.

Further, you have said: “This should horrify you.”

. What comes to mind as relevant to your point is in this verse:

. . “Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.”— (Matt. 12:31–32)

. What Abdul Baha says in explanation of this verse is:

. . The holy realities of the Manifestations of God have two spiritual positions. One is the place of manifestation, which can be compared to the position of the globe of the sun, and the other is the resplendency of the manifestation, which is like its light and radiance; these are the perfections of God—in other words, the Holy Spirit. For the Holy Spirit is the divine bounties and lordly perfections, and these divine perfections are as the rays and heat of the sun. The brilliant rays of the sun constitute its being, and without them it would not be the sun. If the manifestation and the reflection of the divine perfections were not in Christ, Jesus would not be the Messiah. He is a Manifestation because He reflects in Himself the divine perfections. The Prophets of God are manifestations for the lordly perfections—that is, the Holy Spirit is apparent in Them.

. If a soul remains far from the manifestation, he may yet be awakened; for he did not recognize the manifestation of the divine perfections. But if he loathe the divine perfections themselves—in other words, the Holy Spirit—it is evident that he is like a bat which hates the light.

. This detestation of the light has no remedy and cannot be forgiven—that is to say, it is impossible for him to come near unto God. This lamp is a lamp because of its light; without the light it would not be a lamp. Now if a soul has an aversion for the light of the lamp, he is, as it were, blind, and cannot comprehend the light; and blindness is the cause of everlasting banishment from God.

. It is evident that the souls receive grace from the bounty of the Holy Spirit which appears in the Manifestations of God, and not from the personality of the Manifestation. Therefore, if a soul does not receive grace from the bounties of the Holy Spirit, he remains deprived of the divine gift, and the banishment itself puts the soul beyond the reach of pardon.

. This is why many people who were the enemies of the Manifestations, and who did not recognize Them, when once they had known Them became Their friends. So enmity toward the Manifestation did not become the cause of perpetual banishment, for they who indulged in it were the enemies of the light-holders, not knowing that They were the shining lights of God. They were not the enemies of the light, and when once they understood that the light-holder was the place of manifestation of the light, they became sincere friends of it.

. The meaning is this: to remain far from the light-holder does not entail everlasting banishment, for one may become awakened and vigilant; but enmity toward the light is the cause of everlasting banishment, and for this there is no remedy.

 

[Servant19]

IgnatianPhilo;11352249:

Ignatian,
. Can we analyse this just a bit further. I want to know if you can understand the logic of the Baha’i view in light of Jesus’ own words (from a Baha’i perspective, I mean. You don’t have to agree with it.) Please bear with me, if you will.

. You have said: “Take the mirror away from the light, the mirror shines no light and is nothing without the light…”

. Jesus has said: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does." >>> (Like a Mirror reflecting the Light from the Source [my words] )

. You have said: “We are saying the Mirror is the source of the light, we are saying the mirror is the light itself”

. Jesus has said: “These words are not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.”

. You have said: " the light that leads every man into salvation."

I can agree with this statement, for if we follow the Light, we do not stumble.
. We can stumble, however, into the Mirror, so to speak, as the Jews stumbled into Moses being the final Mirror, not recognizing that Jesus was a new Mirror, reflecting a fuller portion of the Light.

Excellently reasoned post Dale

 

[daler]

the bahai have yet to provide a sound reason for believing bahaullah is a manifestation of God.

until they do that, bahaism is simply flowery rhetoric, fit more for the stage than for truth.

if opposition were proof of a self-proclaimed religious leader’s authority and authenticity, there would be literally hundreds of manifestations abounding in human history. as mentioned before, joseph smith proclaimed his selection as God’s messenger and he has certainly faced opposition and incredulity. the same is true of jim jones and david koresh in the 20th century. the same is true of bahaullah. opposition to a person’s teaching has nothing to do with the legitmacy of and truth contained in those teachings.

Eddie,
. The manner of opposition, when it turns to violence, is a proof of the bankruptcy of the deniers.

. "And now, ponder upon these things. What could have caused such contention and conflict? Why is it that the advent of every true Manifestation of God hath been accompanied by such strife and tumult, by such tyranny and upheaval? This notwithstanding the fact that all the Prophets of God, whenever made manifest unto the peoples of the world, have invariably foretold the coming of yet another Prophet after them, and have established such signs as would herald the advent of the future Dispensation. To this the records of all sacred books bear witness.
. Why then is it that despite the expectation of men in their quest of the Manifestations of Holiness, and in spite of the signs recorded in the sacred books, such acts of violence, of oppression and cruelty, should have been perpetrated in every age and cycle against all the Prophets and chosen Ones of God? Even as He hath revealed: “As oft as an Apostle cometh unto you with that which your souls desire not, ye swell with pride, accusing some of being impostors and slaying others.”

. “Leaders of religion, in every age, have hindered their people from attaining the shores of eternal salvation, inasmuch as they held the reins of authority in their mighty grasp. Some for the lust of leadership, others through want of knowledge and understanding, have been the cause of the deprivation of the people. By their sanction and authority, every Prophet of God hath drunk from the chalice of sacrifice, and winged His flight unto the heights of glory. What unspeakable cruelties they that have occupied the seats of authority and learning have inflicted upon the true Monarchs of the world, those Gems of divine virtue! Content with a transitory dominion, they have deprived themselves of an everlasting sovereignty. Thus, their eyes beheld not the light of the countenance of the Well-Beloved, nor did their ears hearken unto the sweet melodies of the Bird of Desire. For this reason, in all sacred books mention hath been made of the divines of every age. .
. Thus He saith: “O people of the Book! Why disbelieve the signs of God to which ye yourselves have been witnesses?” And also He saith: “O people of the Book! Why clothe ye the truth with falsehood? Why wittingly hide the truth?” Again, He saith: “Say, O people of the Book! Why repel believers from the way of God?”
. It is evident that by the “people of the Book,” who have repelled their fellow-men from the straight path of God, is meant none other than the divines of that age, whose names and character have been revealed in the sacred books, and alluded to in the verses and traditions recorded therein, were you to observe with the eye of God.”

from the Kitab-i-Iqan (Book of Certitude)

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Daler, I am assuming for the sake of argument that bahai is true and Christianity is false. I do not believe it to be false, I am a Christian but this helps make my point more precise. So this is not about biblical interpretation, we could argue all those verses but in attempting to correct me, to make me realise that the bahai are right, you are essentially agreeing with me that Christians are doing something they should not be doing according to bahai. You need to stay on the road and not swerve to the side, this is not about how we understand the bible, this is about what we are doing based on our understandings of the bible.

So you have in reality admitted that we Christians are doing something truly evil by worshipping Jesus Christ. At least by your attempt to say “well look at the bible and what it says, you are clearly wrong.” You have established my point for me without even realising it. Christians are the worst of creatures because we associate something that belongs to God and give it to a creation, an inferior being. You cannot say we worship the same God. You cannot argue logically that we are not doing anything wrong. You must say we need to convert and recognise the true God. Otherwise you are in denial.

Don’t quote your prophet to me; I consider that fat as he never answers any of my questions. He brings up more questions that he never attempted to answer and which bahai think he can answer.

Servant, I think you have swerved from the clear trail of this discussion. This is about whether or not Christians from a bahai perspective worship that which they should not worship. I am assuming the bahai position right for the sake of the argument because it helps get this point across. You are making the same mistake Daler made, in attempting to correct me, to get me to change my view of the mirror you are conceding we are worshipping that which we should not be worshipping. Implicitely you are saying we are doing something truly evil and need to reconsider my viewpoint.

I say Jesus is the substance of divinity, equal to his father ontologically. Sharing the exact same essence. The father of course however being the fount of all divinity from which the spirit and son eternally proceed and are begotten respectively. This is not the same as the bahai position. We cannot separate Jesus from the father, the thought that Jesus could die (in his divinity) is an impossibility for us but for you he could be destroyed and your God would be unaffected. You bahai are in a corner. You don’t want to exclude Christians, I get that, you want to think we can agree at least on what God is, but you really know we cannot. EVERY TIME you attempt to prove something to me from the bible or say my understanding is wrong you are saying I am wrong. You are saying the idea Jesus is the light is wrong, you are saying that Jesus is merely a mirror and you are blaspheming God with the very thought that he is the source of the light itself. Theres nowhere left to hide, you have to admit Christians commit the worst sin imaginable (according to the quran), shirk.

 

[daler]

Daler, I am assuming for the sake of argument that bahai is true and Christianity is false. I do not believe it to be false, I am a Christian but this helps make my point more precise. So this is not about biblical interpretation, we could argue all those verses but in attempting to correct me, to make me realise that the bahai are right, you are essentially agreeing with me that Christians are doing something they should not be doing according to bahai. You need to stay on the road and not swerve to the side, this is not about how we understand the bible, this is about what we are doing based on our understandings of the bible.

So you have in reality admitted that we Christians are doing something truly evil by worshipping Jesus Christ. At least by your attempt to say “well look at the bible and what it says, you are clearly wrong.” You have established my point for me without even realising it. Christians are the worst of creatures because we associate something that belongs to God and give it to a creation, an inferior being. You cannot say we worship the same God. You cannot argue logically that we are not doing anything wrong. You must say we need to convert and recognise the true God. Otherwise you are in denial.

Don’t quote your prophet to me; I consider that fat as he never answers any of my questions. He brings up more questions that he never attempted to answer and which bahai think he can answer.

Ignatian,

. Please reread post 516. Study it carefully, please, because what you are attempting to assert here could not be further from the truth.

. I, as a Christian, a follower of Christ, was led to recognize another Mirror purely by the Light of Jesus. There is no contradiction, that Baha’i is right and Christianity is wrong. That is the absolute and complete opposite of Baha’i belief.

. The Light is One and the same Light, from One and the same Source, from two Mirrors fashioned by the One God, created to reflect His Light to humanity in direct proportion to our capacity to receive it. How can God contradict God? How does the Light of God oppose Itself? This is pure superstition and plane imagination on your part, Ignatian.

. Do not fabricate untruths in a hopeless attempt to foil the clear and obvious similarity of one and the same truth. You are looking at a prism, which casts red, orange, yellow, green, blue, and purple rays. If you behold them all, they are one single, pure, and all encompassing white light.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Ignatian,

. Please reread post 516. Study it carefully, please, because what you are attempting to assert here could not be further from the truth.

. I, as a Christian, a follower of Christ, was led to recognize another Mirror purely by the Light of Jesus. There is no contradiction, that Baha’i is right and Christianity is wrong. That is the absolute and complete opposite of Baha’i belief.

. The Light is One and the same Light, from One and the same Source, from two Mirrors fashioned by the One God, created to reflect His Light to humanity in direct proportion to our capacity to receive it. How can God contradict God? How does the Light of God oppose Itself? This is pure superstition and plane imagination on your part, Ignatian.

. Do not fabricate untruths in a hopeless attempt to foil the clear and obvious similarity of one and the same truth. You are looking at a prism, which casts red, orange, yellow, green, blue, and purple rays. If you behold them all, they are one single, pure, and all encompassing white light.

In attempting to say “Read your own bible and see how you are mistaken. Jesus is not the source, he is merely a mirror, see verses A, B, C and D,” I had seen enough to realise that you were trying to correct me. Or do you think I am right in what I say about Jesus and God? Clearly you think I am wrong. Yet you still believe I am truly worshipping God. At first you tried to explain this that I am merely using jesus as a means to get to God, and I clarified and told you, “No I am actually worshipping himas if he were God.”

Now you are doing again. You are telling me I am wrong for saying he is the light. He merely reflects the light by your understanding. You are trying to convince me I am wrong. Everytime you do this, you are implicitely admitting Christianity has a false understanding of God and does not worship that which is God. I will say this for the last time. Jesus to me is not merely a mirror, he is the source of the light that reflects off a mirror. He is God almighty who will destroy his enemies and who will give grace to whom he gives grace.

I have not distorted anything. Rather it seems to me you cannot conceive that we Christians might actually not be worshipping God. Its probably a horrifying thought to you but your own beliefs force you to accept this reality.

 

[Servant19]

Daler, I am assuming for the sake of argument that bahai is true and Christianity is false. I do not believe it to be false, I am a Christian but this helps make my point more precise. So this is not about biblical interpretation, we could argue all those verses but in attempting to correct me, to make me realise that the bahai are right, you are essentially agreeing with me that Christians are doing something they should not be doing according to bahai. You need to stay on the road and not swerve to the side, this is not about how we understand the bible, this is about what we are doing based on our understandings of the bible.

So you have in reality admitted that we Christians are doing something truly evil by worshipping Jesus Christ. At least by your attempt to say “well look at the bible and what it says, you are clearly wrong.” You have established my point for me without even realising it. Christians are the worst of creatures because we associate something that belongs to God and give it to a creation, an inferior being. You cannot say we worship the same God. You cannot argue logically that we are not doing anything wrong. You must say we need to convert and recognise the true God. Otherwise you are in denial.

Don’t quote your prophet to me; I consider that fat as he never answers any of my questions. He brings up more questions that he never attempted to answer and which bahai think he can answer.

Servant, I think you have swerved from the clear trail of this discussion. This is about whether or not Christians from a bahai perspective worship that which they should not worship. I am assuming the bahai position right for the sake of the argument because it helps get this point across. You are making the same mistake Daler made, in attempting to correct me, to get me to change my view of the mirror you are conceding we are worshipping that which we should not be worshipping. Implicitely you are saying we are doing something truly evil and need to reconsider my viewpoint.

I say Jesus is the substance of divinity, equal to his father ontologically. Sharing the exact same essence. The father of course however being the fount of all divinity from which the spirit and son eternally proceed and are begotten respectively. This is not the same as the bahai position. We cannot separate Jesus from the father, the thought that Jesus could die (in his divinity) is an impossibility for us but for you he could be destroyed and your God would be unaffected. You bahai are in a corner. You don’t want to exclude Christians, I get that, you want to think we can agree at least on what God is, but you really know we cannot. EVERY TIME you attempt to prove something to me from the bible or say my understanding is wrong you are saying I am wrong. You are saying the idea Jesus is the light is wrong, you are saying that Jesus is merely a mirror and you are blaspheming God with the very thought that he is the source of the light itself. Theres nowhere left to hide, you have to admit Christians commit the worst sin imaginable (according to the quran), shirk.

No Ignatian, you are trying to make us admit that worshipping Jesus as God is WRONG.

That is a exercise of folly. There is nothing wrong to worship Jesus as God. I personally have no problem with that.

The problem arises when you, just like the early Church Fathers, USE that erroneous conclusion to ELEVATE your religion over and above all other religions.

This level of exclusivity is erroneous and evil, for it creates disunity, elitism and an under-class of spirituality and grace.

God does not do these things, and in fact shuns them

 

[daler]

No Ignatian, you are trying to make us admit that worshipping Jesus as God is WRONG.

That is a exercise of folly. There is nothing wrong to worship Jesus as God. I personally have no problem with that.

The problem arises when you, just like the early Church Fathers, USE that erroneous conclusion to ELEVATE your religion over and above all other religions.

This level of exclusivity is erroneous and evil, for it creates disunity, elitism and an under-class of spirituality and grace.

God does not do these things, and in fact shuns them

Very well stated, Servant.

It is no wonder why Muhammad had to “take up the sword and defend the faithful” after 13 years of violence against Him and the early Muslims. There are some who are so relentless in their attacks. Thank God that swords and stones aren’t acceptable behavior anymore, or that burning people at the stake has fallen out of favor.

I fail to see how anyone can speak for all Christians and say: “This is what Christians believe or don’t believe” Someone seems to have an authority complex.

I was raised in a small midwestern town with about 5 churches: Methodist, Lutheran, Catholic, Presbyterian, and Pentecostal, and eventually some Mormons came to town.

Everybody in that town got along just fine. There were never any religious disputes in all the years I lived there growing up. It seems people have more time on their hands now with less to do, so its down to maybe drinking to much beer and wine and throwing some weight around on the Internet, huffing and puffing, and trying to blow down a brick house. Ain’t gonna happen!

 

[arthra]

the bahai can try an justify it in any manner they choose.

however, the bahai believe it is their mission to institute a one world government. that is a political objective held by a political group.

…

if achieving a one world government turns your crank, the bahai would definitely welcome you.

It isn’t “our” mission to institute a world government… It is in our view the governments mission to do this. All we can do is encourage the process…

When Baha’u’llah was still in exile and a prisoner of the Sultan of the Ottoman Empire He wrote Tablets to the rulers of the day…such as Queen Victoria, Kaiser Wilhelm, Napoleon III, Czar Alexander and others advising them to establish a representative world parliament and an international court of arbitration… this was roughly between 1868 and 1871. For the most part the rulers at that time ignored the Tablets addressed to them…

In 1911-1912 Abdul-Baha on His travels to Europe and North America also warned of an ensuing conflagration that would engulf the nations and also urged reducing armaments… Once again He was for teh most part ignored.

*the question of universal peace, about which Bahá’u’lláh says that the Supreme Tribunal must be established: although the League of Nations has been brought into existence, yet it is incapable of establishing universal peace. But the Supreme Tribunal which Bahá’u’lláh has described will fulfil this sacred task with the utmost might and power. And His plan is this: that the national assemblies of each country and nation – that is to say parliaments – should elect two or three persons who are the choicest of that nation, and are well informed concerning international laws and the relations between governments and aware of the essential needs of the world of humanity in this day. The number of these representatives should be in proportion to the number of inhabitants of that country. The election of these souls who are chosen by the national assembly, that is, the parliament, must be confirmed by the upper house, the congress and the cabinet and also by the president or monarch so these persons may be the elected ones of all the nation and the government.

• Abdul-Baha

• (Compilations, The Compilation of Compilations vol II, p. 159)

WWI occurred…After the war to end all wars a League of Nations was established… which was not effective in avoiding the next war…WWII…

After the conflagration of that war… The nations gathered once more and established the United Nations and an International Court of Arbitration…

In time it is our hope that the principles of Baha’u’llah enunciated 1868-1871 will be recognized and adiopted by the governments… It’s their job to do this …not the Baha’is by themselves.

The Bahá’í world community, acting through its representatives at the United Nations and through its National Spiritual Assemblies, has brought to the attention of governments and world leaders in many spheres the tenets and character of the Faith of God. The world’s parliaments, its federal councils, its humanitarian agencies have considered the Bahá’í Cause and in many instances have extended their support and expressed their sympathy.
(The Universal House of Justice, Messages 1963 to 1986, p. 476)

 

[daler]

In time it is our hope that the principles of Baha’u’llah enunciated 1868-1871 will be recognized and adiopted by the governments… It’s their job to do this …not the Baha’is by themselves.

MUSIC BREAK:

Seals and Crofts, “Summer Breeze”

youtube.com/watch?v=BthCLLO-PY0

.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

No Ignatian, you are trying to make us admit that worshipping Jesus as God is WRONG.

It isn’t wrong? Is Jesus God then? (don’t say he is divine, you know what I mean.)

That is a exercise of folly. There is nothing wrong to worship Jesus as God. I personally have no problem with that.

There is nothing wrong in attributing the worship which belongs to God alone to a creature? What if I worship an Idol is there anything wrong with that?

The problem arises when you, just like the early Church Fathers, USE that erroneous conclusion to ELEVATE your religion over and above all other religions.

This level of exclusivity is erroneous and evil, for it creates disunity, elitism and an under-class of spirituality and grace.

God does not do these things, and in fact shuns them

Of course we elevate our religion, because we like everyone else believe we are right. Are you telling me your a bahai because you believe every religion is equall valid? I cannot understand why you would believe in these things.

Do all the bahais in this thread agree with servant? That is okay to worship Jesus as God? That all religions are equal? That no one should believe their religion is superior than anothers?

 

[Servant19]

It isn’t wrong? Is Jesus God then? (don’t say he is divine, you know what I mean.)

There is nothing wrong in attributing the worship which belongs to God alone to a creature? What if I worship an Idol is there anything wrong with that?

Of course we elevate our religion, because we like everyone else believe we are right. Are you telling me your a bahai because you believe every religion is equall valid? I cannot understand why you would believe in these things.

My goodness Ignatian.

It seems you still have not read the post I made regarding ontology and epistemology (???)

Why would you equate Jesus to an idol???
He is more than an idol wouldnt you think? Come on brother, lets stop this mindless futility.

Baha’is see Jesus as the only version of God that we can ever know, when humans lived at His time. Today, that Personage is Baha’u’llah. That is not “idol worship”

Its the worship of the only source of God that a human being can ever get to know about in this world. What more is there?

Baha’is worship Them “AS” God, yet knowing full well they are not “THE” GOD

Does that make sense to you? It must be very late where you are, get some sleep mate

 

[tonyfish58]

It isn’t wrong? Is Jesus God then? (don’t say he is divine, you know what I mean.)

There is nothing wrong in attributing the worship which belongs to God alone to a creature? What if I worship an Idol is there anything wrong with that?

Of course we elevate our religion, because we like everyone else believe we are right. Are you telling me your a bahai because you believe every religion is equall valid? I cannot understand why you would believe in these things.

Do all the bahais in this thread agree with servant? That is okay to worship Jesus as God? That all religions are equal? That no one should believe their religion is superior than anothers?

This is a little out of context, but the answer would be the same for all religions;

“It behoveth all the beloved of God to become as one, to gather together under the protection of a single flag, to stand for a uniform body of opinion, to follow one and the same pathway, to hold fast to a single resolve. Let them forget their divergent theories and put aside their conflicting views since, God be praised, our purpose is one, our goal is one. We are the servants of one Threshold, we all draw our nourishment from the same one Source, we all are gathered in the shade of the same high Tabernacle, we all are sheltered under the one celestial Tree”. Abdul’baha - reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/SAB/sab-194.html

This is how this talk starts;

It is daybreak, and from the rising-point of the invisible realms of God, the light of unity is dawning; and streaming and beating down from the hidden world of the Kingdom of oneness there cometh a flood of abounding grace. Glad tidings of the Kingdom are sounding from every side, and wafting in from every direction are the first morning signs of the exalting of God’s Word and the upraising of His Cause. The word of unity is spreading, the verses of oneness are being sung, the sea of God’s bestowals is tossing high its waves, and in plunging cataracts His blessings are pouring down.

Regards Tony

 

[daler]

It isn’t wrong? Is Jesus God then? (don’t say he is divine, you know what I mean.)

There is nothing wrong in attributing the worship which belongs to God alone to a creature? What if I worship an Idol is there anything wrong with that?

Of course we elevate our religion, because we like everyone else believe we are right. Are you telling me your a bahai because you believe every religion is equall valid? I cannot understand why you would believe in these things.

Do all the bahais in this thread agree with servant? That is okay to worship Jesus as God? That all religions are equal? That no one should believe their religion is superior than anothers?

. "With faces beaming with joy, hasten ye unto Him.

. “This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. Let him that seeketh, attain it; and as to him that hath refused to seek it—verily, God is Self-Sufficient, above any need of His creatures.”

. “God, the Creator, saith: There is no distinction whatsoever among the Bearers of My Message. They all have but one purpose; their secret is the same secret. To prefer one in honor to another, to exalt certain ones above the rest, is in no wise to be permitted. Every true Prophet hath regarded His Message as fundamentally the same as the Revelation of every other Prophet gone before Him.”

. “If any man, therefore, should fail to comprehend this truth, and should consequently indulge in vain and unseemly language, no one whose sight is keen and whose understanding is enlightened would ever allow such idle talk to cause him to waver in his belief.”

from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, the Glory of God