Baha'i V

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Servant19 said:
My goodness Ignatian.

It seems you still have not read the post I made regarding ontology and epistemology (???)

Why would you equate Jesus to an idol???
He is more than an idol wouldnt you think? Come on brother, lets stop this mindless futility.

Baha’is see Jesus as the only version of God that we can ever know, when humans lived at His time. Today, that Personage is Baha’u’llah. That is not “idol worship”

Its the worship of the only source of God that a human being can ever get to know about in this world. What more is there?

Baha’is worship Them “AS” God, yet knowing full well they are not “THE” GOD

Does that make sense to you? It must be very late where you are, get some sleep mate 🙂
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Do you still not understand, we are worshipping Jesus as if he was THE GOD. You are still trying to correct me. You are trying to tell me that I have the wrong idea but you don’t want to say “your not worshipping God,” clearly from your point of view I am not worshipping God. Was the previous user’s analogy not enough? Was my use of the analogy not enough? Take the mirror away from the light and what do you? A mirror that reflects nothing on its own and the light is untouched. You view A, the Light as God, you view B, the Mirror as a manifestation. Lets call the Idol C

Now does the worship you give to A belong to B or C?

Its like your trying say “your not wrong in what you do, but you should do it this way because your way is totally mistaken.” Bahai are walking contradictions, rather they are people full of contradictions.

But if you have no problem with Christian prayer will you say these things of Jesus?
  1. But you were found not really to be Israel, for you did not see God, you did not recognize the Lord, you did not know, O Israel, that this one was the firstborn of God, the one who was begotten before the morning star, the one who caused the light to shine forth, the one who made bright the day, the one who parted the darkness, the one who established the primordial starting point, the one who suspended the earth, the one who quenched the abyss, the one who stretched out the firmament, the one who formed the universe, Melito of Sardis, on Pascha
But you do not believe these things about Christ. I find humurous, every time I attempt to tell the bahai what Christians, what we actually believe, its like you don’t believe us but you still want to convince us we are wrong. You do believe we are wrong, that is apparent because you are trying to tell me Jesus is not the source, you are trying to tell me we should worship God and Im telling you, you need to listen, you need to pay absolute attention. JESUS IS GOD AND CHRISTIANS MEAN IT. DONT CONFUSE THAT FOR YOUR IDEA. JESUS IS ONTOLOGICALLY GOD FOR THE CHRISTIAN, WE ARE NOT FLIPPANT WITH THE WORD GOD. WE DO NOT CONSIDER ANYONE ELSE GOD EXCEPT THE FATHER AND THE SON AND THE HOLY SPIRIT. SEE HOW I RIGHT WITH BIG CAPITOL LETTERS TO EMPHASIS MY POINT.

Im so tired by the way of having to say every time after (i say Jesus is God) that phrase but I have to or you will twist it. you will make pretend as if we are talking about the some strange divinity of Christ which really isnt divinity but some essence distinct from God.

I’m just about at that point where I am convinced the bahais are total subjectivists but you really aren’t. You have absolute dogmas and hide behind a thick wall of pretension and nonsense so that you appear to be welcoming and enlightening. But your not. your just as dogmatic as any Christian, jew or muslim, you just try to hide it.

You say you worship these supposed manifestations as god, lets call them gods. They are the council of gods and there is the big head God who is far above them. Do you give the same worship to them as you give to your big head God?
 
Just reading this sentence, Iggy:
IgnatianPhilo said:
You view A, the Light as God, you view B, the Mirror as a manifestation. Lets call the Idol C
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Proves to me that you do not read anything the Baha’is write in this thread. Where you get the idea that “I view” it in the way you describe here is beyond me.

I’m tired Iggy… [SIGN]help me out here[/SIGN]
 
Servant19 said:
Just reading this sentence, Iggy:

Proves to me that you do not read anything the Baha’is write in this thread. Where you get the idea that “I view” it in the way you describe here is beyond me.

I’m tired Iggy… [SIGN]help me out here[/SIGN]
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So the manifestations are not mirrors and God is not the light or the source of this light? Im sorry what?
 
IgnatianPhilo said:
So the manifestations are not mirrors and God is not the light or the source of this light? Im sorry what?
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God the Father is the Source of the Light, not the Light.

The Holy Spirit is the Light…but I believe even this analogy is very simplistic, it really is beyond us.

Baha’is pray to and worship Baha’u’llah. It’s the only thing we can conceive, as humans, to worship
 
“82. But you were found not really to be Israel, for you did not see God, you did not recognize the Lord, you did not know, O Israel, that this one was the firstborn of God, the one who was begotten before the morning star, the one who caused the light to shine forth, the one who made bright the day, the one who parted the darkness, the one who established the primordial starting point, the one who suspended the earth, the one who quenched the abyss, the one who stretched out the firmament, the one who formed the universe, Melito of Sardis, on Pascha”

I believe all of this within the Primal Will, the Logos aspect of Christ. That aspect is SEPARATE from his human identity. It is separate from the human identity of Bahaullah too, but it is an aspect He shares with Christ
 
Servant19 said:
God the Father is the Source of the Light, not the Light.

The Holy Spirit is the Light…but I believe even this analogy is very simplistic, it really is beyond us.

Baha’is pray to and worship Baha’u’llah. It’s the only thing we can conceive, as humans, to worship
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So the father is the essence of the light. The medium between the light and the mirror is the Holy spirit. The Mirror therefore is the Holy spirit.

Don’t say I don’t read anything you write. When you insist on using vague metaphores for explanations every single time you leave out specifics like that believe it or not. Now you are avoiding my main premise, out of everything I said you leap on that one very minor thing?

Are you telling me, there is absolutely no distinction between the type of worship you give to the source of the light and the type of worship you give to the manifestations? Answer that for me. Be as clear as humanly possible. Don’t quote your prophet. Answer me. Do you worship the manifestations with the same amount of devotion as you worship God with? Those manifestations whom God in your quran says he can kill and destroy (when he says this of Jesus).
 
Go read the post you just quoted again. What did I say the Holy Spirit is, the Mirror???
 
Servant19 said:
“82. But you were found not really to be Israel, for you did not see God, you did not recognize the Lord, you did not know, O Israel, that this one was the firstborn of God, the one who was begotten before the morning star, the one who caused the light to shine forth, the one who made bright the day, the one who parted the darkness, the one who established the primordial starting point, the one who suspended the earth, the one who quenched the abyss, the one who stretched out the firmament, the one who formed the universe, Melito of Sardis, on Pascha”

I believe all of this within the Primal Will, the Logos aspect of Christ. That aspect is SEPARATE from his human identity. It is separate from the human identity of Bahaullah too, but it is an aspect He shares with Christ
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The bible isn’t enough for you that you need to force your understanding on to the patristics? HAve you no shame in the interpretation of ancient sources or is anything okay so long as you can exploit it? Go tell me how Marquis de sade’s justine prophecies Mirza hussain while your at it.
 
IgnatianPhilo said:
The bible isn’t enough for you that you need to force your understanding on to the patristics? HAve you no shame in the interpretation of ancient sources or is anything okay so long as you can exploit it? Go tell me how Marquis de sade’s justine prophecies Mirza hussain while your at it.
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I have no shame for incorrect interpretations, no…

As Sen pointed out several posts ago (you may have missed it) there were several of the closest companions of Bahaullah who misinterpreted His Writings, most erroneously.

Correct interpretation can only be passed on directly from the Manifestation of God Hilself
 
Servant19 said:
Go read the post you just quoted again. What did I say the Holy Spirit is, the Mirror???
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You clearly said the holy spirit was the light. I clearly said teh manifestation was the mirror. I mistyped. Next time try to infer or ask about it. You are clearly trying to avoid the substance of by argument by focusing on the most minute point. The thing is however you cannot say as a Christian I worship the source of the light. I have told you plainly I worship Jesus. Who is not the source of the light but is a mirror according to your understanding. And who is the source of the light? He is God is he not? By me not honouring him as God, but rather honouring his son i am not giving him what he is due right? I am attributing something to a mere mirror, something he can do away with if he should so desire. I am insulting your God and you don’t even want to recognise that.
 
Servant19 said:
I have no shame for incorrect interpretations, no…

As Sen pointed out several posts ago (you may have missed it) there were several of the closest companions of Bahaullah who misinterpreted His Writings, most erroneously.

Correct interpretation can only be passed on directly from the Manifestation of God Hilself
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Like I said, go do this with any text while your at it. Why don’t we read into Hitler’s writing and words that what he really meant is that he loved jews this entire time but everyone misunderstood him. Maybe Joseph Stalin didn’t mean to kill all those russians.

But as you said, you have no shame in incorrect interpretations of a source. So long as your belief is proved right in the end. It doesnt matter that Melito never speaks of things like you do in his entire work, what matters is how can we make him sound like a bahai. He’s not allowed to be a jewish follower of Christ in asia minor in the Johanine tradition of Christianity.

Also a correction for my previous post. I meant to say the Holy spirit is the light and the Mirror is the manifestation.
 
IgnatianPhilo said:
I have seen that. Now lets focus on the topic. Is the worship of the mirror (away from the source of the light) the worship of God? Yes or no?
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Yes, as Baha’is we are fine with that. We are not Islamic in our thinking, where Allah and ONLY Allah is to be worshipped, we worship God THROUGH the Manifestation.

Food is calling
 
Servant19 said:
Yes, as Baha’is we are fine with that. We are not Islamic in our thinking, where Allah and ONLY Allah is to be worshipped, we worship God THROUGH the Manifestation.

Food is calling
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You are fine with us worshipping that which is not God? Well, your not monotheists, at least in the idea that God deserves all praise honour and glory. I am done, at this point I am convinced that bahai will compromise even their monotheism (though I suspect if servant was talking to a muslim he would quickly recite the shahada) to appear to agree with someone.

If I were a muslim would you say these sorts of things to me? Or would you reassure me that “no no, we bahai worship God alone, his messengers are just that messengers, they are not God and certaintly not worthy of the worship God receives.” I suspect bahai would say that to a muslim.

I am done with bahai, hopefully forever, you are no better than new age gnostics.
 
Hi all, I was invited here and haven’t been following latest discussion.

But seeing this last post about monotheism… I probably need to clarify as a Baha’i.

The Baha’i claim is it completed and fulfilled all religions and as such the monotheistic God of Abraham and Moses and Jesus and Muhammad has finally appeared on earth through the person of Baha’u’llah. As such, Baha’is believe in a God beyond the gods of the religions because Bahaullah fulfills the appeance of the god of religions on Earth as Heaven. In other words Heaven is found on Earth today through the revelation of Bahaullah in the fullest meaning of the term. So the God that Baha’is believe in is above and beyond the God of all religions. This is how the Bahai Faith unites all religions.
 
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