Baha'i V

[eddie_too]

servant19 says bahaullah, along with all previous manifestations are epistemologically God, not ontologically.

red sox 1 says the bahai believe that bahaullah is ontologically God.

this is symptomatic of all of the bahai teachings. no one, including the bahai, agree on what they mean. one bahai says this and the next bahai says the opposite.

the Roman Catholic Church has defined what it means and it has made those definitions available to all mankind.

 

[Red_Sox_1]

Hi Sox,

Which paragraph in the Aqdas are you referring to here please?

It is stated in paragraph 143. It is restated in Tajalliyat’s second to last paragraph. See also Suriyi Haykal paragraph 45.

 

[Servant19]

servant19 says bahaullah, along with all previous manifestations are epistemologically God, not ontologically.

red sox 1 says the bahai believe that bahaullah is ontologically God.

this is symptomatic of all of the bahai teachings. no one, including the bahai, agree on what they mean. one bahai says this and the next bahai says the opposite.

the Roman Catholic Church has defined what it means and it has made those definitions available to all mankind.

This is where the Writings of Bahaullah give you true insight Eddie.

Was John the Baptist epistemologically or ontologically Elijah?

 

[eddie_too]

servant19 writes,

God resides as a Spirit, and this is where true reality is. Bahaullah is The Lord of true reality. His body means nothing to Him. We just thank Him that He graced us with a physical.

does this mean that bahaullah had no beginning and has no end?

only the spiritual is real? that pretty much defies everything i know about existence.

the physical world is not real. that could be a pretty hard sell to most people who think they are really suffering when they suffer and really loving when they love and are really hungry when they do not get enough to eat.

but, since to the bahai all religions are valid, it totally contradicts christian beliefs.

thank goodness the bahai are indifferent to that contradiction.

it is sad that they cannot understand that such a difference is vitally important to christians.

 

[eddie_too]

john the baptist was not elijah either epistemologically or ontologically.

where does such a question even originate?

 

[SteveVH]

In my view Baha’u’llah’s claim to Godhead is ontological. Do you claim Jesus as Son, Jesus as Father, or Jesus as Ghost, or Jesus as Trinity to be Ontological God?

Jesus is God, whole and entire, the Father is God, whole and entire and the Holy Spirit is God, whole and entire. Jesus is eternally the Son, the Father is eternally the Father and the Holy Spirit is the eternal love between the Father and the Son, so real that it constitutes another divine Person. Where the Son is, there also are the Father and the Holy Spirit. Where the Father is, there also are the Son and the Holy Spirit. Where the Holy Spirit is, there also are the Father and the Son. Three divine Persons in one Being. The only distinction between them is “relationship”. The mystery of the Trinity.

 

[Servant19]

john the baptist was not elijah either epistemologically or ontologically.

where does such a question even originate?

Matthew 11:14. And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come

 

[Red_Sox_1]

servant19 says bahaullah, along with all previous manifestations are epistemologically God, not ontologically.

red sox 1 says the bahai believe that bahaullah is ontologically God.

this is symptomatic of all of the bahai teachings. no one, including the bahai, agree on what they mean. one bahai says this and the next bahai says the opposite.

the Roman Catholic Church has defined what it means and it has made those definitions available to all mankind.

The Baha’is, unlike Catholics, are allowed to disagree over our personal understanding our the Bahai writings so long as we are obedient to the instructions and clarifications of the Universal House of Justice.

 

[Servant19]

does this mean that bahaullah had no beginning and has no end?

Absolutely, in fact the Bab says in His Writings

“Before I chose the womb of my mother, I discoursed with Muhammad about the future of Islam” (provisional translation)

 

[eddie_too]

since red sox 1 has informed me that bahai can beleive anything they want so long as it does not contradict the bahai universal book, it seems fruitless to engage any bahai about anything other than what is defined by the universal book. all else is subjective to the bahai speaking or writing.

 

[Servant19]

My question to everyone is:

How do you know something ontologically?

It defies all common sense

 

[eddie_too]

the universal house of justice (uhj) is a democratically elected body that has absolute authority over all bahai.

that sounds a little different from what some bahai have written here, like the idea that you can continue to believe the teachings of your own faith tradition.

why would a bahai say that it is ok to remain in error. according to bahai, unless you believe what the uhj says, you are in error.

democratically elected body of men with absolute authority, and, they can reverse their infallible statements at any time.

reminds me of the saying about democracy operates at the level of a two year old.

 

[Servant19]

the universal house of justice (uhj) is a democratically elected body that has absolute authority over all bahai.

that sounds a little different from what some bahai have written here, like the idea that you can continue to believe the teachings of your own faith tradition.

why would a bahai say that it is ok to remain in error. according to bahai, unless you believe what the uhj says, you are in error.

democratically elected body of men with absolute authority, and, they can reverse their infallible statements at any time.

reminds me of the saying about democracy operates at the level of a two year old.

There’s a lot to discuss here Eddie. I’m off to bed brother, I’m sure others will answer your questions and clarify your misunderstandings

G’night champs

 

[SteveVH]

The Baha’is, unlike Catholics, are allowed to disagree over our personal understanding our the Bahai writings so long as we are obedient to the instructions and clarifications of the Universal House of Justice.

So truth is not the highest on the Baha’i priority list. This has nothing to do with whether one is “allowed” to believe one thing or another. What matters is that we know the truth. That is why our Church has defined its doctrines; that we might know truth from error.

I would not want to belong to a religion that held my personal preferences above Truth.

 

[eddie_too]

i would not want to belong to a religion where truth is decided by a democratic vote.

 

[rinnie]

Rinne,
. People have this literal understanding of the Rapture, in which they think believers will simply “disappear” into the air and vanish.

Luke 17:34-36 - “I tell you in that night there will be two men in one bed:The one will be taken and the other will be left.”

. “Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.” Mat 24:40
… and vs 41 “Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left.”

… vs 42 “Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming.”…

. If, in hindsight, and with insight, we view this as the coming of the Lord as a Thief in the Night, those whom He takes with Him are the believers, having heard the New Heaven of Revelation, they are standing upon the New Earth of understanding, for they have received Him, and know Him, as in: “My sheep know My voice”,

. Then those who are left are they who do not hear Him, reject the New Heaven of Revelation, and thus do not go with Him on this spiritual journey to the New Earth. They are then left with the old heaven and earth of a past Dispensation, as were the Jews who failed to recognize Christ as the Messiah, and go with Him.

. The word aeon /ˈiːɒn/, also spelled eon, originally means “life” or “being”, … "I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

. People have mistranslated this verse as “end of the world”, which is incorrect.

. That a new age (“not” as in ‘new agers’!) has dawned should be accompanied by signs that “Knowledge shall increase”, as in Daniel 12:4 pertaining to the time of the end:

. “But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.”

. Clearly, as we speak over the internet, in the age of MRIs and the Hubble, etc, etc, Knowledge has increased. Has it not? and many are certainly running to and fro all over the planet. While this may sound simplistic, it represents a stark change from the past many thousands of years in human history.
. Since the dawn of this new age occurred in 1844 with the appearance of the Bab, Who was as John the Baptist to Christ, much has indeed changed, exponentially.

. As to there still being death, physically this shall always be true. What this verse implies is that there shall be no more spiritual death:

. "… By the terms “life” and “death,” spoken of in the scriptures, is intended the life of faith and the death of unbelief. The generality of the people, owing to their failure to grasp the meaning of these words, rejected and despised the person of the Manifestation, deprived themselves of the light of His divine guidance, and refused to follow the example of that immortal Beauty. …

… Even as Jesus said: “Ye must be born again” [John iii, 7]. Again He saith: “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit” [John iii, 5–6]. The purpose of these words is that whosoever in every dispensation is born of the Spirit and is quickened by the breath of the Manifestation of Holiness, he verily is of those that have attained unto “life” and “resurrection” and have entered into the “paradise” of the love of God. And whosoever is not of them, is condemned to “death” and “deprivation,” to the “fire” of unbelief, and to the “wrath” of God. …

But see you have a person who came years after Jesus telling us what Jesus taught. You claim to accept the word of God in the bible, but yet reject the teachings of the Apostles who tell us what Jesus meant.

They were there, So it comes down to, did Jesus give the power to teach and preach in his name as the bible states and reject these teaching you are claiming.

Or accept your version, and rejct the version of the Apostles hand picked by Jesus to teach?

Do you see what I am saying. What you are saying to me, as I see it, You accept what Jesus said, but we need Baha’i to come and tell us what he meant.

So what was his reason to APPOINT 12 Apostles and take all that time to teach them for? Was Jesus just bored, and wanted to confuse the people? It would make Jesus a liar or the Apostles liars for what they taught,

And if that the case, how can you even believe the word of God, it came from them.

 

[Red_Sox_1]

Absolutely, in fact the Bab says in His Writings

“Before I chose the womb of my mother, I discoursed with Muhammad about the future of Islam” (provisional translation)

Amazing.

It sounds like the Bab is saying “Before Muhammad was, I AM.”

 

[eddie_too]

i believe the catholic theologian origen in the second century AD also proposed the pre-existence of souls. so, it is nothing new. it is important to know that the pre-existence of souls was soundly rejected by the RCC subsequently.

but as the bahai say, the truth is not that important. is most important that we all agree that the truth is not that important, or something like that.

 

[daler]

Amazing.

It sounds like the Bab is saying “Before Muhammad was, I AM.”

Well essentially it is the same statement of Jesus:

“Before Abraham was, I am”

The Manifestations of God exist before the earth was formed.

Humans do not “pre-exist”, but rather come into existence at the time of conception.

The Manifestations already exist, as I understand it. They exist prior to taking on human form.

 

[eddie_too]

so the bahai believe in uncreated beings who are not almighty God?

sounds kind of like zeus and his cohorts.