Baha'i V

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For many millions Steve, these contradictions have been completely “obliterated” by the Revelation of Baha’u’llah.
Much like saying 2 + 2 does not equal 4, nor does it equal 5. In the Baha’i world 2 + 2 + 4.5. That is the result of compromising truth.
There are some who struggle with these contradictions for years, and the explanations given by Baha’u’llah provide that “AHA!” moment which brings them (as a leopard) to lie down with the person who was the goat. The wolf now lives with the lamb.
Baloney. Anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear knows empirically that this is a false statement in todays world. You are living within your imagination and ignoring reality.
 
Much like saying 2 + 2 does not equal 4, nor does it equal 5. In the Baha’i world 2 + 2 + 4.5. That is the result of compromising truth.

Baloney. Anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear knows empirically that this is a false statement in todays world. You are living within your imagination and ignoring reality.
I would beg to differ Steve.

The 114 global Bahai youth conferences which have been held over the past 4 months have brought together an equal number of those who are registered Baha’is and those who are not. They ALL left their respective conferences walking together UNITED in a common path of service.

news.bahai.org/community-news/youth-conferences/

Feel free to point out how this is not the leopard and the goat lying down together.
 
according to the bahai, a human being can never be in perfect and eternal union with almighty God. the bahai teach that no matter what, all human beings are forced to an eternal search for something they can never achieve. it is a journey that never ends.

according to the catholic faith, Jesus through His death on the cross made it possible for every human being to be in perfect and eternal union with almighty God. the RCC teaches that human beings can reside eternally in the total and perfect peace and love of Perfect Being. it is a journey that ends in complete, total and perfect fulfillment.

what a human being believes is a choice each of us makes. our choices drive our actions.

when confronted with the above two teachings, we must decide which is best for human beings.

perfect union with almighty God is not something to be sneezed at, nor is it something a wise person would reject.
 
the bahai teach that manifestations are eternal without beginning or end, but all other human beings are not eternal but have a beginning with no end. this raises a question of how the manifestations can relate to the human condition of non-manifestations. how would a manifestation know what it is truly like to be a created being.

the RCC teaches us that Jesus Christ was totally human. He shared completely our human nature. His human nature was created just as my human nature was created. He was a human being exactly as are all other human beings except that He chose not to sin. Jesus knows the human condition perfectly, even as the rest of us experinece life, Jesus experienced life.

this is a radical difference between the teachings of the bahai and the teachings of the RCC.

as always, every human being can choose what they wish to believe.

i choose to believe in a savior who shared my human condition completely except that He did not share my sinfulness.

i reject the bahai concept of manifestations who have no idea of what it means to exist as a created being. that the manifestations have uncreated souls while the rest of us have created souls establishes and essential and substantial divide between the manifestations of bahaism and human beings.
 
I would beg to differ Steve.

The 114 global Bahai youth conferences which have been held over the past 4 months have brought together an equal number of those who are registered Baha’is and those who are not. They ALL left their respective conferences walking together UNITED in a common path of service.

news.bahai.org/community-news/youth-conferences/

Feel free to point out how this is not the leopard and the goat lying down together.
Have you ever witnessed a Catholic youth conference or a World Youth Day? There are literally people from all over the world, every race and nation, and many of varying religions. And with not thousands, or hundreds of thousands, but millions of youth gathering in one place, there is peace and a common purpose. In fact 3 million people attended just the closing Mass at World Youth Day 2013, which is roughly half of the entire Baha’i population. So there is nothing unique to the Baha’i faith in this case and there is no comparison with the scale of the events.

And then we hear of Christians and Baha’i being murdered for nothing more than their beliefs; genocide being committed in various countries and outright war among nations as well as rapes, murders and robberies, sexual abuse, slavery, etc. throughout the world. And there is a reason for this. Christ has not yet come.

To purport that because young people peacefully gathered at a youth conference or other event that the lion has laid down with the lamb has no reality outside of one’ imagination. These peaceful events are the exception rather than the rule.
 
To purport that because young people peacefully gathered at a youth conference or other event that the lion has laid down with the lamb has no reality outside of one’ imagination. These peaceful events are the exception rather than the rule.
Steve,
. I applaud the coming together of millions of Catholic youth from all races, etc. This in itself proves the great progress in the world where only 150 years ago racism, the support of slavery, and racial superiority were the expressed standard, from the top on down.

. The question is, what has brought about the change? Is it coincidental to the age, or was there a cause and a catalyst for this change? Why are so many lions and lambs of different colors and tribes now sitting down together? Can it just be chance? Or is there something causal connected to the massive changes taking place in the past 150 years, the likes of which has never been seen in all recorded history, in literally every facet of human life and enterprise.

. What Servant is describing is essentially the center of the bullseye, and the heart of where all of this is happening. The ripples extend outward, causing the effects you describe elsewhere in the world. Hence, all people are affected either directly or indirectly by His coming:

. “The world’s equilibrium hath been upset through the vibrating influence of this most great, this new World Order. Mankind’s ordered life hath been revolutionized through the agency of this unique, this wondrous System—the like of which mortal eyes have never witnessed.”

Baha’u’llah
 
Oops 🙂 Today was All Saints Day in the Catholic Church and I forgot to post this. I first read this two years ago. I thought it especially appropriate for a Baha’i thread on a Catholic forum on All Saints Day (which is an occurrence I never thought particularly likely!! 😃 ):
“…Today is a day of rejoicing in Paris! They are celebrating the Festival of ‘All Saints’. Why do you think that these people were called Saints’? The word has a very real meaning. A saint is one who leads a life of purity, one who has freed himself from all human weaknesses and imperfections. In man there are two natures; his spiritual or higher nature and his material or lower nature. In one he approaches God, in the other he lives for the world alone. Signs of both these natures are to be found in men. In his material aspect he expresses untruth, cruelty and injustice; all these are the outcome of his lower nature. The attributes of his Divine nature are shown forth in love, mercy, kindness, truth and justice, one and all being expressions of his higher nature. Every good habit, every noble quality belongs to man’s spiritual nature, whereas all his imperfections and sinful actions are born of his material nature. If a man’s Divine nature dominates his human nature, we have a saint. Man has the power both to do good and to do evil; if his power for good predominates and his inclinations to do wrong are conquered, then man in truth may be called a saint. But if, on the contrary, he rejects the things of God and allows his evil passions to conquer him, then he is no better than a mere animal. Saints are men who have freed themselves from the world of matter and who have overcome sin. They live in the world but are not of it, their thoughts being continually in the world of the spirit. Their lives are spent in holiness, and their deeds show forth love, justice and godliness. They are illumined from on high; they are as bright and shining lamps in the dark places of the earth. These are the saints of God. The apostles, who were the disciples of Jesus Christ, were just as other men are; they, like their fellows, were attracted by the things of the world, and each thought only of his own advantage. They knew little of justice, nor were the Divine perfections found in their midst. But when they followed Christ and believed in Him, their ignorance gave place to understanding, cruelty was changed to justice, falsehood to truth, darkness into light. They had been worldly, they became spiritual and divine. They had been children of darkness, they became sons of God, they became saints! Strive therefore to follow in their steps, leaving all worldly things behind, and striving to attain to the Spiritual Kingdom…God sent His Prophets into the world to teach and enlighten man, to explain to him the mystery of the Power of the Holy Spirit, to enable him to reflect the light, and so in his turn, to be the source of guidance to others. The Heavenly Books, the Bible, the Qur’an, and the other Holy Writings have been given by God as guides into the paths of Divine virtue, love, justice and peace. Therefore I say unto you that ye should strive to follow the counsels of these Blessed Books, and so order your lives that ye may, following the examples set before you, become yourselves the saints of the Most High!”
***- Abdu’l-Baha, Paris Talks, p60 ***
Hope everyone had a blessed All Saints Day 👍 (And a blessed Hallowmas in general ie the Triduum of All Hallows from Halloween to All Souls Day tomorrow which is a 3 day religious observance in honour of the dead in Catholicism and other denominations).

(Tis odd the strange circumstances in which a quote you thought you’d never use comes in handy :rolleyes: )
 
And then we hear of Christians and Baha’i being murdered for nothing more than their beliefs; genocide being committed in various countries and outright war among nations as well as rapes, murders and robberies, sexual abuse, slavery, etc. throughout the world. And there is a reason for this. Christ has not yet come.
Steve,
. As to your expectations that “immediately” upon the appearance of Christ in the world, all people should suddenly get along and love each other spontaneously,… well, this clearly did not happen 2000 years ago when He first appeared. What make you think that in His second coming we will all suddenly “get it” this time?

. What about “the great and terrible day of the Lord come.” spoken of by Joel?

. What about “and many shall fall by the sword”?

. Or, as Matthew 13:42 says, “…the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”

. What about the battle of Armageddon?

. Again in Matthew: “And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars; see that ye be not troubled, for it is necessary that all these things must take place; but the end is not yet.”

. So we may hold a fantasy version of a kind of Disneyland scenario with the sweep of a great magic wand we all live happily ever after, or … we have a reality check do deal with… again… as always!

. “The winds of despair”, Bahá’u’lláh wrote, “are, alas, blowing from every direction, and the strife that divides and afflicts the human race is daily increasing. The signs of impending convulsions and chaos can now be discerned, inasmuch as the prevailing order appears to be lamentably defective.”

. "We desire but the good of the world and the happiness of the nations; yet they deem Us a stirrer up of strife and sedition worthy of bondage and banishment…. That all nations should become one in faith and all men as brothers; that the bonds of affection and unity between the sons of men should be strengthened; that diversity of religion should cease, and differences of race be annulled—what harm is there in this?…

. Yet so it shall be; these fruitless strifes, these ruinous wars shall pass away, and the ‘Most Great Peace’ shall come…. Yet do We see your kings and rulers lavishing their treasures more freely on means for the destruction of the human race than on that which would conduce to the happiness of mankind…. These strifes and this bloodshed and discord must cease, and all men be as one kindred and one family…. Let not a man glory in this, that he loves his country; let him rather glory in this, that he loves his kind…."
 
Oops 🙂 Today was All Saints Day in the Catholic Church and I forgot to post this.

(Tis odd the strange circumstances in which a quote you thought you’d never use comes in handy :rolleyes: )
Vouthon,
. What a wonderful tradition, to honor collectively the most selfless and noble among us. The list is long, and many are the unsung heroes worthy to be on that list.

. Thank you for the charity of your good words and the generosity of your spirit. You are always a breath of fresh air, my friend. (and I nominate that you be on that list, too… 😉

.
 
Steve,
. As to your expectations that “immediately” upon the appearance of Christ in the world, all people should suddenly get along and love each other spontaneously,… well, this clearly did not happen 2000 years ago when He first appeared. What make you think that in His second coming we will all suddenly “get it” this time?
Because it will be the end of time; the end of human history; then end of salvation history; the end of the story. When the heavenly Jerusalem descends we will live as children of God rather than children of the world.
What about “the great and terrible day of the Lord come.” spoken of by Joel?
Yes, the Great Tribulation before Christ comes.
What about “and many shall fall by the sword”?
Also before Christ comes.
Or, as Matthew 13:42 says, “…the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”
A reference to hell after the final judgment.
What about the battle of Armageddon?
What about it?
Again in Matthew: “And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars; see that ye be not troubled, for it is necessary that all these things must take place; but the end is not yet.”
And he is quite correct. The end is not yet. All of these things must take place before Christ comes, which is how we know that he has not come.
 
Because it will be the end of time; the end of human history; then end of salvation history; the end of the story. When the heavenly Jerusalem descends we will live as children of God rather than children of the world.

And he is quite correct. The end is not yet. All of these things must take place before Christ comes, which is how we know that he has not come.
Steve,
. I have read and heard many variations from opposing Christian scholars who think this or that will happen before or after Christ’s coming. The head of the theological department of Loma Linda University states that Armageddon occurs “after” His coming.

. If you are interested in history, this Widipedia article is quite fascinating. The Battle of Megiddo took place in Sept 1918

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Megiddo_(1918
 
Steve,
. I applaud the coming together of millions of Catholic youth from all races, etc. This in itself proves the great progress in the world where only 150 years ago racism, the support of slavery, and racial superiority were the expressed standard, from the top on down.
Not in the Catholic Church. We have been truly universal for centuries upon centuries, incorporating every race in the world, both in our congregations and in our clergy.
The question is, what has brought about the change? Is it coincidental to the age, or was there a cause and a catalyst for this change? Why are so many lions and lambs of different colors and tribes now sitting down together? Can it just be chance? Or is there something causal connected to the massive changes taking place in the past 150 years, the likes of which has never been seen in all recorded history, in literally every facet of human life and enterprise.
Why are so many countries fighting against each other? Why are innocents being killed each and every day? Why are our religious liberties being taken away? Rather than progress, young people now kill one another for their shoes or their coat. We abort 3000 babies a day just here in the good old USA (the equivalent of a 911, each every day). Because there are microcosms of good behavior does not mean that we are any nearer to a peaceful and just world.
What Servant is describing is essentially the center of the bullseye, and the heart of where all of this is happening. The ripples extend outward, causing the effects you describe elsewhere in the world. Hence, all people are affected either directly or indirectly by His coming:
Oh, I guaranty you that when he truly comes all people will be affected very directly. Those who live in his grace will rejoice. Those who do not will call on the mountains to fall down upon them.

.
 
Not in the Catholic Church. We have been truly universal for centuries upon centuries, incorporating every race in the world, both in our congregations and in our clergy.

Why are so many countries fighting against each other? Why are innocents being killed each and every day? Why are our religious liberties being taken away? Rather than progress, young people now kill one another for their shoes or their coat. We abort 3000 babies a day just here in the good old USA (the equivalent of a 911, each every day). Because there are microcosms of good behavior does not mean that we are any nearer to a peaceful and just world.

Oh, I guaranty you that when he truly comes all people will be affected very directly. Those who live in his grace will rejoice. Those who do not will call on the mountains to fall down upon them.

.
Steve,
. The horror indeed continues. No one can deny that. No Baha’i denies the horror of these times. What we say is that we see a Light at the end of this dark tunnel. We cannot sit passively by and wait for God to clean up our mess. It is our own mess, and we must clean it up.

. I think the matter in which we differ is in our understanding of how God acts in our lives when a Manifestation appears on earth. Historically, only a few people recognize Him immediately. This is true in every singe case where a Prophet of God comes. Later, over time, more and more people hear His voice and receive His message.

. In this sense, it is an organic process whereby the effect of “Go and proclaim unto all the nations” His Word is passed from one soul to another, with some accepting, and some rejecting. It is not accomplished over night. It never has been. To expect “God to do it” is to refuse to take on the responsibility of “hearing” and “seeing”.

. Some must always be in the forefront both of recognizing and proclaiming the Message of God, accepting the stones thrown, as Stephen did, or the bullet to the back of the head, as Servant’s cousin did.

. This is the “great and terrible Day of the Lord”, which is why the fanatics of the Islamic Faith, led by their clergy, are trying desperately to stomp out the fire of Faith in the land of Elam (Persia), where it was prophesied by Jeremiah that the Lord shall set His throne.

. What is peculiar, however, is that the more they stomp, the more the Faith spreads. All those whom they imprison for professing their belief in Baha’u’llah would be released for merely recanting their belief, but they do not, as this is their testimony. While in prison, they shine so brightly that the other prisoners, whether real criminals or political, etc, are so impressed with the behavior and steadfastness of the Baha’is that they tell their family outside the jails of the truth of what they witness among the Baha’is, which is 100% opposite of what the mullahs and Ayatollahs have been brainwashing the people with for 170 years, much like the early Romans witnessed of the early Christians.
 
Steve,
. I have read and heard many variations from opposing Christian scholars who think this or that will happen before or after Christ’s coming. The head of the theological department of Loma Linda University states that Armageddon occurs “after” His coming.

. If you are interested in history, this Widipedia article is quite fascinating. The Battle of Megiddo took place in Sept 1918

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Megiddo_(1918
Thanks, but no thanks. He is in a long line of those who interpret scripture apart from the faith that produced it. I’m Catholic. I have the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit.
 
Why are so many countries fighting against each other? Why are innocents being killed each and every day? Why are our religious liberties being taken away? Rather than progress, young people now kill one another for their shoes or their coat. We abort 3000 babies a day just here in the good old USA (the equivalent of a 911, each every day). Because there are microcosms of good behavior does not mean that we are any nearer to a peaceful and just world.

.
. To address your questions here, Steve, this is the breakdown and the total collapse of what Baha’u’llah called “The old world order”, where tyrants and despots ruled the earth; where slavery and exploitation were the order of the day; where people depended upon their leaders and divines to show them the way. This is what it has led to!!

. "O ye children of men! The fundamental purpose animating the Faith of God and His Religion is to safeguard the interests and promote the unity of the human race, and to foster the spirit of love and fellowship amongst men. Suffer it not to become a source of dissension and discord, of hate and enmity.

. This is the straight Path, the fixed and immovable foundation. Whatsoever is raised on this foundation, the changes and chances of the world can never impair its strength, nor will the revolution of countless centuries undermine its structure. Our hope is that the world’s religious leaders and the rulers thereof will unitedly arise for the reformation of this age and the rehabilitation of its fortunes. Let them, after meditating on its needs, take counsel together and, through anxious and full deliberation, administer to a diseased and sorely-afflicted world the remedy it requires….

. It is incumbent upon them who are in authority to exercise moderation in all things. Whatsoever passeth beyond the limits of moderation will cease to exert a beneficial influence. Consider for instance such things as liberty, civilization and the like. However much men of understanding may favourably regard them, they will, if carried to excess, exercise a pernicious influence upon men….

. Please God, the peoples of the world may be led, as the result of the high endeavours exerted by their rulers and the wise and learned amongst men, to recognize their best interests. How long will humanity persist in its waywardness? How long will injustice continue? How long is chaos and confusion to reign amongst men? How long will discord agitate the face of society?

. The winds of despair are, alas, blowing from every direction, and the strife that divideth and afflicteth the human race is daily increasing. The signs of impending convulsions and chaos can now be discerned, inasmuch as the prevailing order appeareth to be lamentably defective.

. I beseech God, exalted be His glory, that He may graciously awaken the peoples of the earth, may grant that the end of their conduct may be profitable unto them, and aid them to accomplish that which beseemeth their station."

Baha’u’llah
 
Steve,
. The horror indeed continues. No one can deny that. No Baha’i denies the horror of these times. What we say is that we see a Light at the end of this dark tunnel. We cannot sit passively by and wait for God to clean up our mess. It is our own mess, and we must clean it up.
That light is Jesus Christ. We also see a light at the end of the tunnel. We know how the story ends. We win!!! 🙂
. I think the matter in which we differ is in our understanding of how God acts in our lives when a Manifestation appears on earth. Historically, only a few people recognize Him immediately. This is true in every singe case where a Prophet of God comes. Later, over time, more and more people hear His voice and receive His message.

. In this sense, it is an organic process whereby the effect of “Go and proclaim unto all the nations” His Word is passed from one soul to another, with some accepting, and some rejecting. It is not accomplished over night. It never has been. To expect “God to do it” is to refuse to take on the responsibility of “hearing” and “seeing”.
Yes, I know, this has been repeated time and time again.
 
the bahai teach that manifestations are eternal without beginning or end, but all other human beings are not eternal but have a beginning with no end. this raises a question of how the manifestations can relate to the human condition of non-manifestations. how would a manifestation know what it is truly like to be a created being.

the RCC teaches us that Jesus Christ was totally human. He shared completely our human nature. His human nature was created just as my human nature was created. He was a human being exactly as are all other human beings except that He chose not to sin. Jesus knows the human condition perfectly, even as the rest of us experinece life, Jesus experienced life.

this is a radical difference between the teachings of the bahai and the teachings of the RCC.

as always, every human being can choose what they wish to believe.

i choose to believe in a savior who shared my human condition completely except that He did not share my sinfulness.

i reject the bahai concept of manifestations who have no idea of what it means to exist as a created being. that the manifestations have uncreated souls while the rest of us have created souls establishes and essential and substantial divide between the manifestations of bahaism and human beings.
Greetings! I appreciate what you are saying, but it is not a correct characterization of the Baha’i teachings on the matter. The Manifestations of God have a fully human nature in addition to their divine nature. They are born of woman, have a normal family life in many cases including wives and children (Jesus being an exception), although both Zoroaster and Krishna were also conceived spiritually, without sexual union, according to the traditions of their faiths. All of the Manifestations of God experience temptations, hunger, pain and other human frailties. This is universal among all faiths, including Christianity. Yet, they also have a divine nature and that nature is eternal, has existed before the universe was created, in fact it was through that divine nature, the eternal Word of God, that creation came into being.
 
the bahai teach that manifestations are eternal without beginning or end, but all other human beings are not eternal but have a beginning with no end. this raises a question of how the manifestations can relate to the human condition of non-manifestations. how would a manifestation know what it is truly like to be a created being…
Eddie,

I think you pose a good question:

“…how would a manifestation know what it is truly like to be a created being…”

Manifestations have a Divine, a rational and a physical part of Their makeup which allows Them to experience the human nature we all share…

"Now we need an educator who will be at the same time a material, human and spiritual educator, and whose authority will be effective in all conditions…

Then it is plain and evident that man needs an educator, and this educator must be unquestionably and indubitably perfect in all respects and distinguished above all men. Otherwise, if he should be like the rest of humanity, he could not be their educator, more particularly because he must be at the same time their material and human as well as their spiritual educator -- that is to say, he must teach men to organize and carry out physical matters, and to form a social order in order to establish cooperation and mutual aid in living so that material affairs may be organized and regulated for any circumstances that may occur. I

Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, pp. 7 - 9

We said that the Manifestations have three planes. First, the physical reality, which depends upon the body; second, the individual reality, that is to say, the rational soul; third, the divine appearance, which is the divine perfections, the cause of the life of existence, of the education of souls, of the guidance of people, and of the enlightenment of the contingent world.
Code:
(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 153)
and

“…**.the Manifestation of God has two natures, the divine and the human. **The former is always hidden by the latter. Only those who have spiritual eyes can penetrate through the veil of human limitations and behold the reality of the Manifestation. Those who are spiritually blind are tested by the personality of the Prophet. They can see only the human qualities and often seek to find fault with these Holy Souls.”

~ Adib Taherzadeh, The Revelation of Baha’u’llah v 1, p. 129
 
That light is Jesus Christ. We also see a light at the end of the tunnel. We know how the story ends. We win!!! 🙂

.
Steve,
. Herein lies the problem. In this “us” vs “them” mentality, where “I” win and “you” lose, the whole purpose for which the Manifestations, Prophets, Messengers of God (call them what you like) is lost. It isn’t about “me” vs “you”, my friend.

. When “we”, as humanity, walk in the Light of the Unity of Divinity, then we bask in the sunlight of the bounty of God. Division is our enemy, not each other.

. Each time the sun rises on the horizon, it is at a different point, yet it is the same sun. We could say “It moved!” on the horizon, at its dawning point. Then we could argue that today’s sun cannot be yesterday’s sun because the point from which it appeared on the horizon is different.

. Similarly, when we say “this Manifestation” cannot be from God, because He appeared here or over there, in this age or that, He cannot be from “my God”, because, because, because… Then it is all of these "becauses… that people fail to see that the spiritual Sun has again risen from the horizon of the will of God.

. All of that is fine from the standpoint that everybody can go their own way, but because of the division, the wars persist, hunger, poverty, ignorance, hate, etc, etc, etc.

. So every single time in recorded history that a new Prophet of God appears, people oppose Him and attack His followers because, because, because… of all these reasons, traditional or intellectual, based upon what somebody said 1400 years ago, or 2000 years ago, or 3000, etc and they all think they “won”. Meanwhile, the kids of the world are guaranteed to starve and continue being slaughtered, sacrificed upon the alter of pride, because its more important to “win” than to enter in by the Gate and accept that the One Fold is calling us home by means of the Voice of the One Shepherd.

. “Nothing short of the unity of the entire human race will suffice to heal the ills which afflict mankind.” . Baha’u’llah
 
. To address your questions here, Steve, this is the breakdown and the total collapse of what Baha’u’llah called “The old world order”, where tyrants and despots ruled the earth; where slavery and exploitation were the order of the day; where people depended upon their leaders and divines to show them the way. This is what it has led to!!
I have no idea what you are trying to say. What is the breakdown of “The old world order”?
 
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