Baker denies a "wedding cake" to a same sex couple

[Bearontherun]

In my opinion, this is not just any cake. Making a wedding cake in this case seems to be a very personal project for the baker to undertake. It could possibly be seen even as a work of art that is comissioned. I think she is within her right to accept or deny these tasks. As I see it, a customer comes and proposes a project, and it is up to the baker to decide if she will agree and is able to complete it.

This is very different than someone walking into a store, seeing a cake, picking it up, and deciding that they want to buy it IMHO.

 

[Orogeny]

At 13 years old I am pretty sure Jesus teaches to treat others equal.

Wait let me try and reach your point.
Oh I get it by giving gay people a cake homo sexuality will spread and spread and spread until everyone is Gay!

I get you point.

Spoken like a true 13 year old.

I didn’t realize your age or else I would have taken a different approach to this discussion with you. Unfortunately, you exhibit very common characteristics of people your age. One of those, specific to this discussion, is that tolerance is more important than values. Your statement above indicates that you don’t understand the concept of a properly formed conscience. The action being discussed in this thread has nothing to do with spreading homosexuality (one word, by the way). It has to do with cooperating with something that is in opposition to both Church teaching AND the lady’s conscience. That is the point.

I wish you well in your journeys and I hope that you continue to discern what your faith means as you grow. But another thing that is typical of a person your age is a true sense that you really do know it all. I know, I was 13 once and I have two sons that were 13 at one point. I hope that you learn from this discussion rather than sticking your fingers in your ears and repeating over and over “IT’S JUST A CAKE!”.

Peace

Tim

 

[Castello]

We are told to love our neighbors as ourselves.

Nowhere are we told to “treat others equal”.

 

[catharina]

At 13 years old I am pretty sure Jesus teaches to treat others equal.

Wait let me try and reach your point.
Oh I get it by giving gay people a cake homo sexuality will spread and spread and spread until everyone is Gay!

I get you point.

Really so simple.
NOT ok to participate in celebrating a gay union (marriage).
That is, NOT ok to make a “wedding cake” for a gay union.
Can’t even imagine why you seem to think this is a time for jokes.

You hope to become a priest. Brush up on your logic.

 

[SwissGuard25]

Spoken like a true 13 year old.

I didn’t realize your age or else I would have taken a different approach to this discussion with you. Unfortunately, you exhibit very common characteristics of people your age. One of those, specific to this discussion, is that tolerance is more important than values. Your statement above indicates that you don’t understand the concept of a properly formed conscience. The action being discussed in this thread has nothing to do with spreading homosexuality (one word, by the way). It has to do with cooperating with something that is in opposition to both Church teaching AND the lady’s conscience. That is the point.

I wish you well in your journeys and I hope that you continue to discern what your faith means as you grow. But another thing that is typical of a person your age is a true sense that you really do know it all. I know, I was 13 once and I have two sons that were 13 at one point. I hope that you learn from this discussion rather than sticking your fingers in your ears and repeating over and over “IT’S JUST A CAKE!”.

Peace

Tim

I ain’t denying that you know more than me because I am 13.

But I want you to no something how are you supporting sin by making Gays a wedding cake. All you are doing is your job. I respect this woman’s rights she doesn’t have to make them a cake, but I still don’t understand what would happen if ONE gay couple got a cake

 

[catharina]

Spoken like a true 13 year old.

I didn’t realize your age or else I would have taken a different approach to this discussion with you. Unfortunately, you exhibit very common characteristics of people your age. One of those, specific to this discussion, is that tolerance is more important than values. Your statement above indicates that you don’t understand the concept of a properly formed conscience. The action being discussed in this thread has nothing to do with spreading homosexuality (one word, by the way). It has to do with cooperating with something that is in opposition to both Church teaching AND the lady’s conscience. That is the point.

I wish you well in your journeys and I hope that you continue to discern what your faith means as you grow. But another thing that is typical of a person your age is a true sense that you really do know it all. I know, I was 13 once and I have two sons that were 13 at one point. I hope that you learn from this discussion rather than sticking your fingers in your ears and repeating over and over “IT’S JUST A CAKE!”.

Peace

Tim

Tim, thank you. I’m glad I pointed out that the boy is 13 yrs old.
In that context, his thinking as posted can be grasped by all.

My own son, now 37 yrs old, was once 13 yrs old.
I grew up with six brothers - all were once 13 yrs old.

 

[Castello]

I ain’t denying that you know more than me because I am 13.

But I want you to no something how are you supporting sin by making Gays a wedding cake. All you are doing is your job. I respect this woman’s rights she doesn’t have to make them a cake, but I still don’t understand what would happen if ONE gay couple got a cake

When you have been to weddings and around women who are planning weddings, you will understand that word-of-mouth advertising is how most wedding cake makers get business. When people ask “who made your cake” and they say “such and such”, the word gets around. People who know Mrs such and such is a Christian may feel that if one good Christian can support a gay marriage then it must be okay.

It is called leading by example, living a Christian life, avoiding scandal. They should be teaching you this in you RE classes.

 

[SwissGuard25]

Really so simple.
NOT ok to participate in celebrating a gay union (marriage).
That is, NOT ok to make a “wedding cake” for a gay union.
Can’t even imagine why you seem to think this is a time for jokes.

You hope to become a priest. Brush up on your logic.

Your ignoring one basic Christian fact.

What would Jesus do?

Would Jesus not make them a cake or will he make them a cake.
Will he treat them different or will he treat them equal.

There is two sides to this story. Me and you have different ways to approach. I want you to look at logic.
Today in mass we were taught about clothing God even though we didn’t physically cloth God himself. But we clothed God’s people, therefore in some extent clothing God.
God’s people is everyone we are all sinners and have no right to treat others different.

“Let he without sin cast the first stone.”
-John 8:7.

Also at this point in the conversation I would like to bring up the Golden Rule:
“Do to no one what you yourself dislike.”
—Tobit 4:15
“Recognize that your neighbor feels as you do, and keep in mind your own dislikes.”
—Sirach 31:15

Two passages in the New Testament quote Jesus of Nazareth announcing the golden rule:

Matthew 7:12
“Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.”

Luke 6:31
“And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.”
Luke 10:25-28
"And one day an authority on the law stood up to put Jesus to the test. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to receive eternal life?”
What is written in the Law?” Jesus replied. “How do you understand it?” He answered, “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Love him with all your strength and with all your mind.’(Deuteronomy 6:5) And, ‘Love your neighbor as you love yourself.’ ”
“You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do that, and you will live.”.

The golden rule was part of Jesus’ two new commandments:

1.Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind, and with thy whole strength;
2.Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
[Matthew 22:36-40]

Jesus want’s us to treat others as equals for we have no right to treat others different. Because we are not perfect

***NOTE: IN NO EXTENT AM I SUPPORTING HOMOSEXUALITY ***

 

[Elizabeth502]

I still don’t understand what would happen if ONE gay couple got a cake

If/when you study moral theology one day (high school, college), you will come to understand how our decisions facilitate, directly or indirectly, the behaviors of others. You will learn the following concepts:

Formal cooperation with evil
Material cooperation with evil (mediate and immediate)

Evil has an absolute sense in Catholic moral theology; it’s not quantitative (“just one” supposedly being “less evil,” minor, or harmless; versus an entire collection rising to some arbitary quality of evil). This is why, for example, one mortal sin is a radical break with God’s friendship, and why, for a practicing Catholic, an urgency is then created to confess that sin sacramentally.

Again, other baked goods, and baked goods which do not “celebrate” a morally illicit occasion, are not the issue. Serving, and selling to, openly gay individuals, or openly gay couples, in any way that does not confirm the formality of any legal arrangement, is not at issue.

 

[michelleds]

Your ignoring one basic Christian fact.

What would Jesus do?

Would Jesus not make them a cake or will he make them a cake.
Will he treat them different or will he treat them equal.

There is two sides to this story. Me and you have different ways to approach. I want you to look at logic.
Today in mass we were taught about clothing God even though we didn’t physically cloth God himself. But we clothed God’s people, therefore in some extent clothing God.
God’s people is everyone we are all sinners and have no right to treat others different.

“Let he without sin cast the first stone.”
-John 8:7.

Also at this point in the conversation I would like to bring up the Golden Rule:
“Do to no one what you yourself dislike.”
—Tobit 4:15
“Recognize that your neighbor feels as you do, and keep in mind your own dislikes.”
—Sirach 31:15

Two passages in the New Testament quote Jesus of Nazareth announcing the golden rule:

Matthew 7:12
“Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.”

Luke 6:31
“And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.”
Luke 10:25-28
"And one day an authority on the law stood up to put Jesus to the test. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to receive eternal life?”
What is written in the Law?” Jesus replied. “How do you understand it?” He answered, “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Love him with all your strength and with all your mind.’(Deuteronomy 6:5) And, ‘Love your neighbor as you love yourself.’ ”
“You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do that, and you will live.”.

The golden rule was part of Jesus’ two new commandments:

1.Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind, and with thy whole strength;
2.Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
[Matthew 22:36-40]

Jesus want’s us to treat others as equals for we have no right to treat others different. Because we are not perfect

NOTE: IN NO EXTENT AM I SUPPORTING HOMOSEXUALITY

:banghead:

Loving your neighbor as yourself should mean that you love them enough not to want them to go to hell.

Points you seem to be missing:

1. this couple told the baker they were lesbian partners
2. they were at a cake taste test, which means that this baker was one of several, not the one chosen. taste testing occurs well before a wedding.
3. the wedding cake is an IMPORTANT part of a ceremony.
4. making the cake for a wedding would be participating, just as taking the wedding photos, sitting in the pews, witnessing, standing up with the bride, walking the bride down the aisle.
5. The Catholic Church is pretty clear about Catholics NOT supporting SSM
6. Knowing participation in a sinful act is making yourself an accessory to the sin. think of this in a criminal case: you drive your buddy to the liquor store knowing that he is going to rob the clerk. while you sit in the car, your buddy goes into the store and shoots the clerk. YOU are as guilty of murder as your buddy.

 

[catharina]

Your ignoring one basic Christian fact.

What would Jesus do?

Would Jesus not make them a cake or will he make them a cake.
Will he treat them different or will he treat them equal.

There is two sides to this story. Me and you have different ways to approach. I want you to look at logic.
Today in mass we were taught about clothing God even though we didn’t physically cloth God himself. But we clothed God’s people, therefore in some extent clothing God.
God’s people is everyone we are all sinners and have no right to treat others different.

“Let he without sin cast the first stone.”
-John 8:7.

Also at this point in the conversation I would like to bring up the Golden Rule:
“Do to no one what you yourself dislike.”
—Tobit 4:15
“Recognize that your neighbor feels as you do, and keep in mind your own dislikes.”
—Sirach 31:15

Two passages in the New Testament quote Jesus of Nazareth announcing the golden rule:

Matthew 7:12
“Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.”

Luke 6:31
“And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.”
Luke 10:25-28
"And one day an authority on the law stood up to put Jesus to the test. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to receive eternal life?”
What is written in the Law?” Jesus replied. “How do you understand it?” He answered, “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Love him with all your strength and with all your mind.’(Deuteronomy 6:5) And, ‘Love your neighbor as you love yourself.’ ”
“You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do that, and you will live.”.

The golden rule was part of Jesus’ two new commandments:

1.Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind, and with thy whole strength;
2.Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
[Matthew 22:36-40]

Jesus want’s us to treat others as equals for we have no right to treat others different. Because we are not perfect

***NOTE: IN NO EXTENT AM I SUPPORTING HOMOSEXUALITY ***

We are to lead others to Jesus, to the fullness of truth.
In no way are we to applaud them, celebrate them in their sin.
Baking a wedding cake for two people who canNOT marry in the eyes of God
is definitely an action that would be supporting them in sin.

What would Jesus do?
He would correct them for their thinking/actions and tell them: “Sin no more.”

Working for Jesus,
following Jesus,
mirroring Jesus,
teaching Jesus,
sharing Jesus -
is totally unlike working for the ACLU.

You are very confused about this matter.

 

[SwissGuard25]

If/when you study moral theology one day (high school, college), you will come to understand how our decisions facilitate, directly or indirectly, the behaviors of others. You will learn the following concepts:

Formal cooperation with evil
Material cooperation with evil (mediate and immediate)

Evil has an absolute sense in Catholic moral theology; it’s not quantitative (“just one” supposedly being “less evil,” minor, or harmless; versus an entire collection rising to some arbitary quality of evil). This is why, for example, one mortal sin is a radical break with God’s friendship, and why, for a practicing Catholic, an urgency is then created to confess that sin sacramentally.

Again, other baked goods, and baked goods which do not “celebrate” a morally illicit occasion, are not the issue. Serving, and selling to, openly gay individuals, or openly gay couples, in any way that does not confirm the formality of any legal arrangement, is not at issue.

So what you are saying is it will start a chain reaction and if we give one Gay a cake it will more will get a cake and more and more and more and until everyone Gay will get a cake. And then when every gay gets a cake everyone will be gay

Sorry I had to say that although it was kinda smartallec like.
But what I am not understand is which is more Catholic treating people the same or making a cake for an unholy union?

 

[SwissGuard25]

We are to lead others to Jesus, to the fullness of truth.
In no way are we to applaud them, celebrate them in their sin.
Baking a wedding cake for two people who canNOT marry in the eyes of God
is definitely an action that would be supporting them in sin.

What would Jesus do?
He would correct them for their thinking/actions and tell them: “Sin no more.”

Working for Jesus,
following Jesus,
mirroring Jesus,
teaching Jesus,
sharing Jesus -
is totally unlike working for the ACLU.

You are very confused about this matter.

All I know is that people deserve respect no matter race, sexual orientation, religion etc etc.

Here what I am confused about though:

Which is more Catholic treating others equally or not supporting an unholy union?

Serious question

Thank You

 

[catharina]

So what you are saying is it will start a chain reaction and if we give one Gay a cake it will more will get a cake and more and more and more and until everyone Gay will get a cake. And then when every gay gets a cake everyone will be gay

**Nope. That’s what YOU are saying and what you IMAGINE others are saying. **

Sorry I had to say that although it was kinda smartallec like.
But what I am not understand is which is more Catholic treating people the same or making a cake for an unholy union?

Would you make a cake to celebrate abortion - say for a post-abortion party?
"Wow - got rid of THAT baby - HURRAY!"

 

[SwissGuard25]

:banghead:

Loving your neighbor as yourself should mean that you love them enough not to want them to go to hell.

Points you seem to be missing:

1. this couple told the baker they were lesbian partners
2. they were at a cake taste test, which means that this baker was one of several, not the one chosen. taste testing occurs well before a wedding.
3. the wedding cake is an IMPORTANT part of a ceremony.
4. making the cake for a wedding would be participating, just as taking the wedding photos, sitting in the pews, witnessing, standing up with the bride, walking the bride down the aisle.
5. The Catholic Church is pretty clear about Catholics NOT supporting SSM
6. Knowing participation in a sinful act is making yourself an accessory to the sin. think of this in a criminal case: you drive your buddy to the liquor store knowing that he is going to rob the clerk. while you sit in the car, your buddy goes into the store and shoots the clerk. YOU are as guilty of murder as your buddy.

Say there is no cake what would be the difference?

There is no cake they still get married.
Thousands of Gays got married without a cake as soon as they were allowed to get married before prop 8.

 

[catharina]

All I know is that people deserve respect no matter race, sexual orientation, religion etc etc.

Here what I am confused about though:

Which is more Catholic treating others equally or not supporting an unholy union?

Serious question

Thank You

Yes, all deserve respect. Not all deserve applause and congrats.
Celebrate a successful bank robbery?
Why not? The guys are happy, they wanna party.

Get it?

 

[catharina]

Say there is no cake what would be the difference?

There is no cake they still get married.
Thousands of Gays got married without a cake as soon as they were allowed to get married before prop 8.

The difference would be
YOUR REFUSAL to participate,
cake or no cake.

 

[SwissGuard25]

Yes, all deserve respect. Not all deserve applause and congrats.
Celebrate a successful bank robbery?
Why not? The guys are happy, they wanna party.

Get it?

Listen I know Homo Sexuality is wrong but I am pretty sure there is somewhat of a difference between a robbery and Gay marriage.

 

[Elizabeth502]

So what you are saying is it will start a chain reaction

No. That is not what I said. That is not what Catholic moral theology says. That is not what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says. That is not what Pope BXVI says. That is not what any well-trained parish priest would tell you if you approached him and asked him to unravel for you what is clearly confusion on your part. This you should do before you are Confirmed, by the way.

The principles of moral theology are not about “chain reactions,” or about quantity (“just one”). Mora theology is about:

~defining personal sin
~defining the reach of so-called “private” sin
~understanding our accountability for all our decisions, including decisions which affect society even on the micro level. (You should confess wastefulness merely at home, for example (as at least a venial sin), even if you aren’t in charge of a large corporation which wastes).
~understanding how single decisions affect others
~understanding the basis of morality: which is not private interpretation of scripture (which you engage in), but Church interpretation of scripture + Sacred Tradition + magisterial teaching. If you believe in the Roman Catholic Church as the Church of Jesus Christ, then you have no choice but to accept the workings of the Spirit in that Church, because Jesus in scripture proclaimed that He was leaving His Spirit with His Church to guide it.

But what I am not understand is which is more Catholic treating people the same or making a cake for an unholy union?

There is no “more.” It’s not an either/or.

 

[SwissGuard25]

The difference would be
YOUR REFUSAL to participate,
cake or no cake.

So when A man sells another man a gun. And then the man who purchased the gun kills someone. Would the man who sold the gun be considered a murderer?