Baker denies a "wedding cake" to a same sex couple

[Nate13]

So what you are saying is it will start a chain reaction and if we give one Gay a cake it will more will get a cake and more and more and more and until everyone Gay will get a cake. And then when every gay gets a cake everyone will be gay

Sorry I had to say that although it was kinda smartallec like.
But what I am not understand is which is more Catholic treating people the same or making a cake for an unholy union?

Your argument contradicts itself. Your arguing that not giving them a cake for a marriage is not treating people the same, but I assume you are against same sex marriage correct? It seems your arguing that they should be allowed to have a cake, but not the marriage in the name of “treating people the same”. That ideal would work great if everybody and every couple was the exact same.

Lets think about this a different way. Lets assume it became legal for a 25 year-old man to marry a 10 year old girl. Would it be ok to bake a cake for that wedding? I think you are blinded to the obvious answer in the case of the homosexual couple because you have empathy for the couple and what they have to go through. This is not a bad thing at all, except for the fact that you are allowing it to blind you and make decisions for you.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Say there is no cake what would be the difference?

There is no cake they still get married.
Thousands of Gays got married without a cake as soon as they were allowed to get married before prop 8.

If there is no cake, then there is no story. The story is that a Christian baker decided that she could not provide a wedding cake to a lesbian couple. That is all.

She did not throw the couple out of her shop. She was not rude, she did not stone them (as some religions would sanction). She merely said that it goes against her religious beliefs.

We as Christians can love the sinner yet still hate the sin. We can pray for people who are doing wrong, without actually participating in any way in the wrong they are doing.

What if the baker had instead been the sister of one of the lesbians? And had been asked to be the witness to their wedding, or the “best man?” I mean, it’s just a formality, right, and a chance to get a new dress…Is that all right to do as well?

I’ll answer the question for you: Of course not. The baker lady would have to decline, telling her sister, “As much as I love you, sis, I can’t support your “marriage” in that way. I won’t stop loving you, but being at your wedding is more than my faith can allow me to do.” She would not stop seeing her sister, not stop calling her sister, not stop loving her sister, but beyond that, she cannot support her sister’s choice of lifestyle.

 

[catharina]

So when A man sells another man a gun. And then the man who purchased the gun kills someone. Would the man who sold the gun be considered a murderer?

If the seller KNEW that the gun would be used to murder,
then yes, of course the seller would bear some guilt for the crime.

Likely it would be the “accessory to murder”

• unless the seller ordered the murder.
  If he ordered it, it would be MURDER,
  the same as for the shooter.

 

[Neildown]

This is ridiculous - If the lady wants to refuse to make a cake, she can refuse to make a cake - on any grounds she wants to! If its her business she can refuse you a cake because you didn’t wipe your shoes off before entering. She apparently wasn’t even rude about what she said either.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

So when A man sells another man a gun. And then the man who purchased the gun kills someone. Would the man who sold the gun be considered a murderer?

Not unless the gun purchaser told the gun seller, “I am buying this gun to go and kill a person,” and then he would be an accessory to murder, before the fact.

 

[SwissGuard25]

No. That is not what I said. That is not what Catholic moral theology says. That is not what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says. That is not what Pope BXVI says. That is not what any well-trained parish priest would tell you if you approached him and asked him to unravel for you what is clearly confusion on your part. This you should do before you are Confirmed, by the way.

The principles of moral theology are not about “chain reactions,” or about quantity (“just one”). Mora theology is about:

~defining personal sin
~defining the reach of so-called “private” sin
~understanding our accountability for all our decisions, including decisions which affect society even on the micro level. (You should confess wastefulness merely at home, for example (as at least a venial sin), even if you aren’t in charge of a large corporation which wastes).
~understanding how single decisions affect others
~understanding the basis of morality: which is not private interpretation of scripture (which you engage in), but Church interpretation of scripture + Sacred Tradition + magisterial teaching. If you believe in the Roman Catholic Church as the Church of Jesus Christ, then you have no choice but to accept the workings of the Spirit in that Church, because Jesus in scripture proclaimed that He was leaving His Spirit with His Church to guide it.

There is no “more.” It’s not an either/or.

:banghead::banghead:
just treat others equally! is this hard to understand? treat others equally! is this not what Jesus taught?

Gays are people. Yes they’re sinners but who are you to judge?
Are you perfect is that why your calling them sinners?
It has nothing to do with participating it has to do with the fact they’re people too!

 

[Nate13]

So when A man sells another man a gun. And then the man who purchased the gun kills someone. Would the man who sold the gun be considered a murderer?

If I knew the person I was selling the gun to was going to kill someone yes I would guilty of aiding in the killing. This can be prosecuted by law. If I have done everything reasonable to assure myself when I sell the gun to a person that they are not going to use it for unlawful means (i.e background check), then I’m not guilty. Baking a cake for a lesbian couple is not wrong in and of itself. Baking a cake for a lesbian couple’s marriage is wrong, assuming I know that it is for their marriage.

 

[SwissGuard25]

Not unless the gun purchaser told the gun seller, “I am buying this gun to go and kill a person,” and then he would be an accessory to murder, before the fact.

Ah so if the Gays didn’t tell the baker they would of gotten the cake. because the baker wouldn’t of known

 

[michelleds]

Say there is no cake what would be the difference?

There is no cake they still get married.
Thousands of Gays got married without a cake as soon as they were allowed to get married before prop 8.

someone said earlier that you are apparently considering the priesthood, altho at 13, that decision is a bit of a ways off. your participation in Moral Theology makes me think that you are a budding apologist. With those things in mind, you need to understand that you can’t just throw up your hands and say, “well, they’re going to do it anyway, might as well profit from it.”

Let’s remove this from the SSM and cake arena and see if we can come up with a similar example. Let’s say that you own a gun shop. Man comes in and asks to buy a box of ammo. while you are filling out the paperwork, the man says, “I can’t wait to get this ammo. I’m going to go shoot out the windows at the newspaper office.”

do you sell the man the ammo? you’ll make money and avoid any discrimination, treating this man the same as the one before and the one after by making the sale. do you make the sale but tell him how wrong this action would be? do you just love him and wish him well?

I’m going to assume that your moral compass is well-developed enough that you know the right answer is to NOT sell the ammo. but if you are still having difficulty, what if insead of shooting out windows, he says he’s going to go shoot Bob?

By making the sale, you are participating in the sin (and in this case, crime). You cannot participate.

Part of developing a well-informed conscience is learning to discriminate, in the non-PC meaning–to discriminate is to wisely choose between two things (food, drink, actions, beliefs).

 

[catharina]

:banghead::banghead:
just treat others equally! is this hard to understand? treat others equally! is this not what Jesus taught?

Gays are people. Yes they’re sinners but who are you to judge?
Are you perfect is that why your calling them sinners?
It has nothing to do with participating it has to do with the fact they’re people too!

Had an abortion?
wanna cake for a celebration of “got rid of the baby?”

how about string of crimes: rape, murder, torture - gor at way with it?
wanna cake to celebrate your success.

hey maybe swiss guard 25 will provide for you.
he’s into “respect everyone and be a pal.”

That’s what you’re saying if you follow the train of thought.

 

[SwissGuard25]

someone said earlier that you are apparently considering the priesthood, altho at 13, that decision is a bit of a ways off. your participation in Moral Theology makes me think that you are a budding apologist. With those things in mind, you need to understand that you can’t just throw up your hands and say, “well, they’re going to do it anyway, might as well profit from it.”

Let’s remove this from the SSM and cake arena and see if we can come up with a similar example. Let’s say that you own a gun shop. Man comes in and asks to buy a box of ammo. while you are filling out the paperwork, the man says, “I can’t wait to get this ammo. I’m going to go shoot out the windows at the newspaper office.”

do you sell the man the ammo? you’ll make money and avoid any discrimination, treating this man the same as the one before and the one after by making the sale. do you make the sale but tell him how wrong this action would be? do you just love him and wish him well?

I’m going to assume that your moral compass is well-developed enough that you know the right answer is to NOT sell the ammo. but if you are still having difficulty, what if insead of shooting out windows, he says he’s going to go shoot Bob?

By making the sale, you are participating in the sin (and in this case, crime). You cannot participate.

Part of developing a well-informed conscience is learning to discriminate, in the non-PC meaning–to discriminate is to wisely choose between two things (food, drink, actions, beliefs).

It’s a quite a ways away but i sticking to it

All I want to know is would God look at this as a sin?

 

[Nate13]

:banghead::banghead:
just treat others equally! is this hard to understand? treat others equally! is this not what Jesus taught?

Gays are people. Yes they’re sinners but who are you to judge?
Are you perfect is that why your calling them sinners?
It has nothing to do with participating it has to do with the fact they’re people too!

Haha how about this? What about if your son told you he needed a ride to his girlfriends house and that they were going to have sex. By your reasoning you of course would have to give him a ride because you have to treat him exactly the same as if he had not told you that. You didn’t do anything except drive him over there right?

 

[michelleds]

It’s a quite a ways away but i sticking to it

All I want to know is would God look at this as a sin?

Yes.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Ah so if the Gays didn’t tell the baker they would of gotten the cake. because the baker wouldn’t of known

Perhaps. Perhaps once they told her the cake would be for Heather and Tiffany, that would have had the same effect. Or, if only Heather tasted the cakes and there were no names on the cake, the baker would have gone ahead and made the cake.

In which case, when the next lesbian or gay couple approached her, telling her, “We loved the cake you did for Heather and Tiffany, can we have the same one?” she’d have to explain that she didn’t know the cake was for a gay wedding and she would have to decline that job.

It is not our job as Christians to love everything that others do. We don’t have to aid them in sinning.

 

[Neildown]

:banghead::banghead:
just treat others equally! is this hard to understand? treat others equally! is this not what Jesus taught?

Gays are people. Yes they’re sinners but who are you to judge?
Are you perfect is that why your calling them sinners?
It has nothing to do with participating it has to do with the fact they’re people too!

I certainly don’t argue that gays aren’t people, but they stand for something we oppose. Say you are a staunch, die-hard Republican person with a business that sells materials which include things for making picket signs for random birthday parties and Republican occasions. Then say a staunch, die-hard Democrat comes into the store and wants to buy materials for a picket sign, which he is going to use for a Democratic picket sign at a Democratic occasion.

It may seem petty if the Republican owner refuses to sell materials, but he has a standard which he has himself set at. He acknowledges the other person as an equal but he is not going to further any Democratic cause, and since it is his own business he has the right to do such a thing.

 

[SwissGuard25]

Had an abortion?
wanna cake for a celebration of “got rid of the baby?”

how about string of crimes: rape, murder, torture - gor at way with it?
wanna cake to celebrate your success.

hey maybe swiss guard 25 will provide for you.
he’s into “respect everyone and be a pal.”

That’s what you’re saying if you follow the train of thought.

There is a difference between those things and gay marriage.
Why do you see it that way? Why do compare Gay marriage and abortion as the same? Are you that mad at Gays?

The point is your not perfect and neither am I so we have no right to call others sinners

 

[catharina]

It’s a quite a ways away but i sticking to it

All I want to know is would God look at this as a sin?

Does God through His Holy Church TELL US that joining
in the celebration of sin is itself a SIN?

YES!

 

[michelleds]

There is a difference between those things and gay marriage.
Why do you see it that way? Why do compare Gay marriage and abortion as the same? Are you that mad at Gays?

The point is your not perfect and neither am I so we have no right to call others sinners

Wow. I think that CAF is going to be unsuccessful in educating you on this issue. do you have a priest that you can talk to about this confusion?

 

[SwissGuard25]

I certainly don’t argue that gays aren’t people, but they stand for something we oppose. Say you are a staunch, die-hard Republican person with a business that sells materials which include things for making picket signs for random birthday parties and Republican occasions. Then say a staunch, die-hard Democrat comes into the store and wants to buy materials for a picket sign, which he is going to use for a Democratic picket sign at a Democratic occasion.

It may seem petty if the Republican owner refuses to sell materials, but he has a standard which he has himself set at. He acknowledges the other person as an equal but he is not going to further any Democratic cause, and since it is his own business he has the right to do such a thing.

I acknowledge that she has a right to run the store the way she wants to.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

There is a difference between those things and gay marriage.
Why do you see it that way? Why do compare Gay marriage and abortion as the same? Are you that mad at Gays?

The point is your not perfect and neither am I so we have no right to call others sinners

God calls them sinners. I shudder to think of you becoming a priest if you hold onto your brainwashed belief system.