Baker denies a "wedding cake" to a same sex couple

[Newbie2]

Your point is based on the fact that you could never truly 100% know whether the marriage would end up being considered null and their relations adultery. Could you ever 100% know whether or not the homosexual couple intended on committing immoral sexual acts though? Either way in both cases you would have cause of scandal. On the one-hand you have a homosexual marriage that implies immoral sexual actions, and on the other you have a marriage that supports divorce/multiple marriages and neglects the need to receive an annulment before someone is available to marry again.

That’s why I prefaced my comments with “perhaps”. The difference, of course, is the very public nature of homosexual “marriage” ceremonies.

Regarding the differentiation between the girl’s birthday cake & the “wedding” couple’s cake:

There may be a theoretical distinction to be made, but in point of fact, the way that Gay Retail works is by reputation. Often there’s a caution exercised as a community, characterized by keeping purchases within the community when possible (first), and only patronizing those businesses outside of the community known to be “gay-friendly.” Often there are lists of these within the community. Separately, some businesses outside of the community advertise themselves as such (regardless of the orientation of the owners), so that they will be sure to widen their market, if that is a goal.

So, as a practical matter, generally only a “first attempt” at a cake for such a couple’s child, would be the “test case.” Otherwise, any baker who, it was discovered, rejected a “gay wedding” cake, would never be patronized by the local gay community for any other purpose either – whether birthday cakes, or any non-eventful purchase.

Sometimes gays in metro areas assume a kind of universal ‘blind tolerance’ of every lifestyle because of the nature of urban areas (diverse, etc.). But naturally that is not a guarantee that all shop owners share an indiscriminate acceptance of every imaginable lifestyle.

Years ago, a local “gay” monthly publication was starting in our area. We received a solicitation for advertising in their publication. I briefly looked at it and was just aiming it at the circular file, when I noticed that it said that IF we choose not to advertise in their publication, that was OK, but they would list any business who did not choose to advertise in their publication in a special list in their publication. That list was to be entitled “Businesses who choose not to support (whatever the name was, I don’t remember)”, and printed in every issue.

It took some calling around, but let’s just say an aquaintence knew someone prominent in the local gay community who squashed that sort of strong-armed blackmail tactic. If it happened in our Detroit suburb community, I have no doubt that there’s all sorts of underground boycotts of so-called “anti-gay” businesses across the country…which is fine. We still have the right to shop where we choose in this country.

I already stated clearly that I feel it’s the baker’s perogative to work with whomever she feels comfortable with since it’s her own business.
I’ve already said…the best thing is that she should be more upfront about her business to people, and make it clear she will not do gay weddings, so that everybody is on the same page and she doesn’t waste her own or anybody else’s time.

Just curious, how would you suggest she go about doing that?

 

[Warrior1979]

Just curious, how would you suggest she go about doing that?

Put a sign in the window that says “If you’re gay, go away.”

 

[Newbie2]

Put a sign in the window that says “If you’re gay, go away.”

…you cannot order a cake today, even if you have the means to pay.

But seriously…

…how many here would think it OK for her to refer the homosexual couple to another baker who ***would ***do a cake for them? I think as a businessman myself, it would be a reasonable compromise. She gets to stick to her guns while being civil to the couple, who probably would find that other business eventually (or another) anyway.

 

[michelleds]

I do.

But there not really teaching me anything they’re just saying stuff.

I would like it if they taught and used scripture reference like I did.

How about this:

from

CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH

CONSIDERATIONS REGARDING PROPOSALS
TO GIVE LEGAL RECOGNITION
TO UNIONS
BETWEEN HOMOSEXUAL PERSONS

In those situations where homosexual unions have been legally recognized or have been given the legal status and rights belonging to marriage, clear and emphatic opposition is a duty. One ***must ***refrain from any kind of formal cooperation in the enactment or application of such gravely unjust laws and, as far as possible, from material cooperation on the level of their application. In this area, everyone can exercise the right to conscientious objection.

[emphasis mine]

 

[catharina]

How about this:

from

CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH

CONSIDERATIONS REGARDING PROPOSALS
TO GIVE LEGAL RECOGNITION
TO UNIONS
BETWEEN HOMOSEXUAL PERSONS

Quote:
In those situations where homosexual unions have been legally recognized or have been given the legal status and rights belonging to marriage, clear and emphatic opposition is a duty. One must refrain from any kind of formal cooperation in the enactment or application of such gravely unjust laws and, as far as possible, from material cooperation on the level of their application. In this area, everyone can exercise the right to conscientious objection.

[emphasis mine]

Michelle - thanks.
Wonderful quote.

In this nation people seem to glorify every “right” imaginable.
Best example: right to abortion.
Yet we KNOW we must NOT help provide for an abortion.
Why is it so difficult to KNOW that we must NOT provide support for gay unions?

 

[catharina]

I do.

But there not really teaching me anything they’re just saying stuff.

I would like it if they taught and used scripture reference like I did.

Jesus taught by “just saying stuff.”
Rarely did He quote Scripture.

Best way to learn is to know you must learn and act accordingly.

 

[PatriceA]

…you cannot order a cake today, even if you have the means to pay.

But seriously…

…how many here would think it OK for her to refer the homosexual couple to another baker who ***would ***do a cake for them? I think as a businessman myself, it would be a reasonable compromise. She gets to stick to her guns while being civil to the couple, who probably would find that other business eventually (or another) anyway.

That’s probably what I would have done, if my convictions were that strong in the situation.

But on the subject of the signs in the window, that would actually make me NOT want to be a patron of any business that advertised their convictions that publicly. That’s a trend I would not like to see happen.

 

[catharina]

Yes, that sounds good!
Most people will respect a person who needs to follow their faith…and if she can direct them elsewhere, that will show that Christian-love we all keep talking about without compromising her desire to “do what’s right” according to her religious beliefs.

Re the earlier question…I wonder if she can somehow in her advertisement have a bit of a Christian theme to it…at least, while it’s not blatantly saying “I don’t bake for gay weddings”…at least, the potential client is a bit aware of her beleifs and might not go there…or would not be surprised if she then refuses them…

Just want everyone to be honest asap and nice to each other.

Being “nice?” So a Catholic hospital should refer out for abortions?
“We don’t do them but you can go to that place. Here’s the address … .”

This type of thing has been propsed by
a few Catholic hospitals and NEVER allowed.

 

[TarlsQtr]

A great commencement address by a Catholic priest here regarding why we SHOULD be intolerant, close-minded and judgmental.

In part: “Judgmentalism, because we have to know the difference between good and evil, the beautiful and the ugly. We owe it to ourselves and the people around us, the communities we are in. “Yes, prejudice is wrong; but a well-honed and hard-won habit of good judgment is a hallmark of moral and intellectual maturity.” Seek good judgment.”

 

[Newbie2]

That’s probably what I would have done, if my convictions were that strong in the situation.

But on the subject of the signs in the window, that would actually make me NOT want to be a patron of any business that advertised their convictions that publicly. That’s a trend I would not like to see happen.

Me either.

Yes, that sounds good!
Most people will respect a person who needs to follow their faith…and if she can direct them elsewhere, that will show that Christian-love we all keep talking about without compromising her desire to “do what’s right” according to her religious beliefs.

Re the earlier question…I wonder if she can somehow in her advertisement have a bit of a Christian theme to it…at least, while it’s not blatantly saying “I don’t bake for gay weddings”…at least, the potential client is a bit aware of her beleifs and might not go there…or would not be surprised if she then refuses them…

Just want everyone to be honest asap and nice to each other.

Perhaps putting a cross and a star of David on her adverts?

Being “nice?” So a Catholic hospital should refer out for abortions?
“We don’t do them but you can go to that place. Here’s the address … .”

This type of thing has been propsed by
a few Catholic hospitals and NEVER allowed.

Yep, doesn’t seem to have been allowed.

However, don’t you think abortions and cakes are a bit like apples and oranges? Not to mention the differences in the proximity/remoteness of the connection to sin here.

 

[catharina]

A great commencement address by a Catholic priest here regarding why we SHOULD be intolerant, close-minded and judgmental.

In part: “Judgmentalism, because we have to know the difference between good and evil, the beautiful and the ugly. We owe it to ourselves and the people around us, the communities we are in. “Yes, prejudice is wrong; but a well-honed and hard-won habit of good judgment is a hallmark of moral and intellectual maturity.” Seek good judgment.”

Wonderful. Thank you.

 

[SwissGuard25]

Jesus taught by “just saying stuff.”
Rarely did He quote Scripture.

Best way to learn is to know you must learn and act accordingly.

No he didn’t, he quoted from scripture all the time.

H e didn’t “just say stuff” he reunited the true teachings of the Torah to the people. While he didn’t necessarily quote from scripture he did use Hebrew Scripture teachings.

 

[SwissGuard25]

Don’t worry Guys I get it now.

It is a sin to gibe them a “wedding cake” because you are partaking and supplying them in their unholy union.

If you supply them with a cake then you are, to some extent, supporting gay marriage. If you are giving them a cake you are taking part in a preparation for an unnatural festivity.

 

[catharina]

Don’t worry Guys I get it now.

It is a sin to gibe them a “wedding cake” because you are partaking and supplying them in their unholy union.

If you supply them with a cake then you are, to some extent, supporting gay marriage. If you are giving them a cake you are preparing for an unnatural festivity.

So suddenly, you get it.
On your behalf, I’ll say this:

“Thank you, posters, for helping me to see the light.”

 

[catharina]

No he didn’t, he quoted from scripture all the time.

H e didn’t “just say stuff” he reunited the true teachings of the Torah to the people. While he didn’t necessarily quote from scripture he did use Hebrew Scripture teachings.

Again, Jesus taught without much reference to Hebrew Scriptures.
When His audience was strictly Jewish, He likely used more Scripture.

It would be lovely if you lost the need to be so insistent that you are correct.

 

[SwissGuard25]

So suddenly, you get it.
On your behalf, I’ll say this:

“Thank you, posters, for helping me to see the light.”

Yah sure…don’t push it.

 

[catharina]

Yah sure…don’t push it.

Pardon me?

 

[SwissGuard25]

Again, Jesus taught without much reference to Hebrew Scriptures.
When His audience was strictly Jewish, He likely used more Scripture.

It would be lovely if you lost the need to be so insistent that you are correct.

What there to explain?

It has nothing to do with being correct all I am saying is that in order to fulfill his messianic duty he fulfilled the light of the Torah unto the Jews.

 

[catharina]

What there to explain?

It has nothing to do with being correct all I am saying is that in order to fulfill his messianic duty he fulfilled the light of the Torah unto the Jews.

Yes, of course. Now that is true.

 

[SwissGuard25]

Yes, of course. Now that is true.

Yah I know that is what I meant on my earlier post.