Baker denies a "wedding cake" to a same sex couple

[SwissGuard25]

No one has said he calls you a sinner.
ONLY YOU are stuck on that idea.

The priest ACCEPTS that we are sinners.

Yes that is what I am saying you have completely lost the point of the thing we are talking about.

We are all sinners. So we have no right to judge.
Then you went one about confession.
He accepts were sinners but he doesn’t call us sinners because we have no right to call someone a sinner because we ourselves are sinners.
Stay Focused

 

[twosweetgirls]

As someone with an aunt who has a wife, and someone who is absolutely in love with being Catholic, I’d like to put in my two-cents, if I could. . .

My aunt lost her two babies a few months ago (she was five months along in her pregnancy with fraternal twins) and she and her wife were–are still–devastated. A crushing loss like that, I can’t even imagine. They sent me an e-mail, asking if I would make Rosaries in honor of their twins.

I didn’t even hesitate. The two custom Rosaries went together in record time, with very little effort on my part–I know without a doubt that the Holy Spirit was not only leading their request, but guiding my craftsmanship.

I guess, it wasn’t even a question of “oh geeze, should I make these things because it’s my aunt and her wife? Should I make these things knowing they’re not Catholic? Should I (insert whatever issue here)?” My thinking was, if these Rosaries can give them even an iota of comfort, then I will make them. Heck, I’d have made a hundred if they asked. And if the Holy Spirit speaks to my aunt and her wife through the Rosaries, then that’s His business.

What mattered was that I listened and heeded His voice; He’ll take care of everyone else.

Hope that makes sense. . .

 

[Neildown]

This discussion doesn’t even appear related to the topic anymore…

 

[catharina]

Yes that is what I am saying you have completely lost the point of the thing we are talking about.

We are all sinners. So we have no right to judge.
Then you went one about confession.
He accepts were sinners but he doesn’t call us sinners because we have no right to call someone a sinner because we ourselves are sinners.
Stay Focused

Abiout focus? and you?

Please read Posts
186
190
195
232
237.

Focus on the posts.

For now, I’m done with our exchange.
You’ve accused me of hating gays?
You’ve accused me of calling others sinners?
You’ve accused me of saying priests call everyone sinners?

I’m much too old, too ill and too tired to put up with your flippancy and disrespect.

It’s likely others will continue to attempt to enlighten you. Good.

 

[Leegal]

So what you are saying is it will start a chain reaction and if we give one Gay a cake it will more will get a cake and more and more and more and until everyone Gay will get a cake. And then when every gay gets a cake everyone will be gay

Sorry I had to say that although it was kinda smartallec like.
But what I am not understand is which is more Catholic treating people the same or making a cake for an unholy union?

No, I think what the poster was saying that in a “word of mouth” business, the proprietor in making the cake (against her religious conviction) might lead to more business in which she, personally, feels would put her soul in jeopardy.

As an business owner she is operating it within her conscience, but against the best financial interest of the business, which does depend on “word of mouth.”

I expect that if she refused to make one cake, she will not want further business where she has to be confronted with a moral decision.

We have a similar problem in my neighborhood. A bar/restaurant (not a dive or saloon), owned by a heterosexual, decided to have a contest or drawing where he would sponsor a gay wedding. Gay marriage is legal in New York. The Catholics here are upset. They are calling for a boycott of the establishment and for Catholics to stay away from the bar when the wedding is held. The owner was picking up the tab for a carriage to bring the couple, the food, drinks and the reception. A store owner, who also is Catholic, next door stated he will keep his children home that day.

This neighborhood is Catholic (largely) and the establishment is relatively new among many such types of establishments here. Knowing the ethnic make-up, the owner of the establishment is likely Catholic too, but I cannot attest to it. In this case he is acting in the interests of his business – drawing more business, gay or straight, by drawing attention to his bar/restaurant.

I think the owner of the bakery business does not want to draw more business of the kind she has an objection to.

That’s how it works.

 

[catharina]

No, I think what the poster was saying that in a “word of mouth” business, the proprietor in making the cake (against her religious conviction) might lead to more business in which she, personally, feels would put her soul in jeopardy.

As an business owner she is operating it within her conscience, but against the best financial interest of the business, which does depend on “word of mouth.”

I expect that if she refused to make one cake, she will not want further business where she has to be confronted with a moral decision.

We have a similar problem in my neighborhood. A bar/restaurant (not a dive or saloon), owned by a heterosexual, decided to have a contest or drawing where he would sponsor a gay wedding. Gay marriage is legal in New York. The Catholics here are upset. They are calling for a boycott of the establishment and for Catholics to stay away from the bar when the wedding is held. The owner was picking up the tab for a carriage to bring the couple, the food, drinks and the reception. A store owner, who also is Catholic, next door stated he will keep his children home that day.

This neighborhood is Catholic (largely) and the establishment is relatively new among many such types of establishments here. Knowing the ethnic make-up, the owner of the establishment is likely Catholic too, but I cannot attest to it. In this case he is acting in the interests of his business – drawing more business, gay or straight, by drawing attention to his bar/restaurant.

I think the owner of the bakery business does not want to draw more business of the kind she has an objection to.

That’s how it works.

Yes. Thank you.

The Cake Lady has no interest in preparing
cakes for homosexual unions. She’s made that clear.

 

[Castello]

This issue has not been brought up at CCD.
There is no confusion. What is the confusion about that I have no right to call people a sinner?

We are actually commanded to instruct our brothers and sisters when we see them in sin.

To instruct the ignorant;
To counsel the doubtful;
To admonish sinners;
To bear wrongs patiently;
To forgive offences willingly;
To comfort the afflicted;
To pray for the living and the dead.
It will be seen from these divisions that the

It is one of the Spiritual Works of Mercy.

Give this article a read:

newadvent.org/cathen/10198d.htm

 

[Orogeny]

But I want you to no something how are you supporting sin by making Gays a wedding cake.** All you are doing is your job.** I respect this woman’s rights she doesn’t have to make them a cake, but I still don’t understand what would happen if ONE gay couple got a cake

What if your job is as an obstetrician and a woman wants an abortion? Is it ok to perform the abortion just because it is your job? What if you were a prison guard in Auschwitz? Was that ok? After all, it was just your job.

I understand that the severity of those two examples are extreme, but I chose them to make a point. Once you justify doing wrong by saying it’s just my job, where does it end?

You are 13 so I don’t expect you to understand moral decision making. I also think that unfortunately you are growing up in a society that strongly rejects Christian principles. In fact, your continued use of scripture the way you do is a very good example of the bias that you have picked up from society.

What would Jesus do? Go look up Matthew 10:1-15 and come back and tell us what Jesus would do.

Peace

Tim

 

[Leegal]

Your ignoring one basic Christian fact.

What would Jesus do?

Would Jesus not make them a cake or will he make them a cake.
Will he treat them different or will he treat them equal.

As with the prostitute who was being stoned, He would Bless them and say “go and sin no more.” He had that power. I’m not arguing what is the ultimate cause of homosexuality, but God does know. We do not. His power is greater than ours.

I’ve cut your post only to make this not so long. But, it’s not only through the Bible and Scripture that we know and follow our faith. We, as Catholics, are also subject to the teachings of the Church – His Pope, the Magisterium, etc.

The question is the woman’s conscience as she sees it. She followed her conscience. We cannot judge her based upon Scripture alone. She felt that creating a cake was, by extension, a participation in an event that the Church teaches us is wrong.

You must look at both sides of the issue. If the woman was following her heart, as she undertands the teachings of the Church, we have no right to judge her decision. Some may view the cake as not taking a part in validating a marriage – it’s just a cake. Some view the cake as a symbol of the validity and participation in what is termed a “marriage”, something that our Church teaches us is a sacrament and taken in a state of Grace by a man and woman.

I don’t judge homosexuals either because only God can judge. There are many who remain chaste and are within God’s Grace, as much as anyone, just as heteros are not to engage in sexual relations outside of the sanctity and sacrament of a sacramental marriage. There’s no difference in that.

I advocate for tolerance since only God knows the reason why people are drawn to their own sex.

However, I don’t know how far it is before tolerance is viewed as particpation in an event – she would have been a remote third party and not in attendance. Not that attending that wedding is going to turn someone homosexual, but because if, by making the wedding cake, she may have felt she was given legitmacy to the marriage against Church teachings and her conscience.

 

[SwissGuard25]

Abiout focus? and you?

Please read Posts
186
190
195
232
237.

Focus on the posts.

For now, I’m done with our exchange.
You’ve accused me of hating gays?
You’ve accused me of calling others sinners?
You’ve accused me of saying priests call everyone sinners?

I’m much too old, too ill and too tired to put up with your flippancy and disrespect.

It’s likely others will continue to attempt to enlighten you. Good.

Disrespect? Disrespect?

You judge gays that is all I have to say.
You have no right to judge maybe you should read the Bible.
Guess who said:
“Judge not, and ye shall not be judged:
condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned:
forgive, and ye shall be forgiven.”

 

[SwissGuard25]

As with the prostitute who was being stoned, He would Bless them and say “go and sin no more.” He had that power. I’m not arguing what is the ultimate cause of homosexuality, but God does know. We do not. His power is greater than ours.

I’ve cut your post only to make this not so long. But, it’s not only through the Bible and Scripture that we know and follow our faith. We, as Catholics, are also subject to the teachings of the Church – His Pope, the Magisterium, etc.

The question is the woman’s conscience as she sees it. She followed her conscience. We cannot judge her based upon Scripture alone. She felt that creating a cake was, by extension, a participation in an event that the Church teaches us is wrong.

You must look at both sides of the issue. If the woman was following her heart, as she undertands the teachings of the Church, we have no right to judge her decision. Some may view the cake as not taking a part in validating a marriage – it’s just a cake. Some view the cake as a symbol of the validity and participation in what is termed a “marriage”, something that our Church teaches us is a sacrament and taken in a state of Grace by a man and woman.

I don’t judge homosexuals either because only God can judge. There are many who remain chaste and are within God’s Grace, as much as anyone, just as heteros are not to engage in sexual relations outside of the sanctity and sacrament of a sacramental marriage. There’s no difference in that.

I advocate for tolerance since only God knows the reason why people are drawn to their own sex.

However, I don’t know how far it is before tolerance is viewed as particpation in an event – she would have been a remote third party and not in attendance. Not that attending that wedding is going to turn someone homosexual, but because if, by making the wedding cake, she may have felt she was given legitmacy to the marriage against Church teachings and her conscience.

O no don’t get me wrong I am not judging the baker. It is her store and she has rights, but I do think it was unnecessary for her to do it just because they’re gay.

 

[catharina]

Disrespect? Disrespect?

You judge gays that is all I have to say.
You have no right to judge maybe you should read the Bible.
Guess who said:
“Judge not, and ye shall not be judged:
condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned:
forgive, and ye shall be forgiven.”

Repeating:

"For now, I’m done with our exchange.
You’ve accused me of hating gays?
You’ve accused me of calling others sinners?
You’ve accused me of saying priests call everyone sinners?

I’m much too old, too ill and too tired to put up with your flippancy and disrespect."

Buh-bye.
God bless you.

 

[ivebeenshown]

O no don’t get me wrong I am not judging the baker. It is her store and she has rights, but I do think it was unnecessary for her to do it just because they’re gay.

That would be unnecessary; fortunately, she did not refuse the couple service just because they’re gay. She refused them service because the service would be contributing to a sinful act, that is, celebrating a perversion of the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony.

 

[ivebeenshown]

Disrespect? Disrespect?

You judge gays that is all I have to say.
You have no right to judge maybe you should read the Bible.
Guess who said:
“Judge not, and ye shall not be judged:
condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned:
forgive, and ye shall be forgiven.”

We are told in Scriptures to ‘judge with righteous judgment’. ‘Judge not lest ye be judged’ refers to judging some else’s salvation/damnation, not their actions, which we are called to discern.

 

[Castello]

Disrespect? Disrespect?

You judge gays that is all I have to say.
You have no right to judge maybe you should read the Bible.
Guess who said:
“Judge not, and ye shall not be judged:
condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned:
forgive, and ye shall be forgiven.”

You need to understand, this verse speaks of judging souls - that is God’s job, deciding who goes to heaven and who goes to hell.

We are commanded to judge actions and we are commanded to admonish sinners. Please, pick up a Bible and the Catechism and give them a read.

 

[SwissGuard25]

Repeating:

"For now, I’m done with our exchange.
You’ve accused me of hating gays?
You’ve accused me of calling others sinners?
You’ve accused me of saying priests call everyone sinners?

I’m much too old, too ill and too tired to put up with your flippancy and disrespect."

Buh-bye.
God bless you.

You did call people sinners.

But what’s done is done.

See yah
and I hope you get better.

 

[SwissGuard25]

You need to understand, this verse speaks of judging souls - that is God’s job, deciding who goes to heaven and who goes to hell.

We are commanded to judge actions and we are commanded to admonish sinners. Please, pick up a Bible and the Catechism and give them a read.

Yes judging people is God’s Job.
By calling someone a sinner you are taking God’s Job.
And Jesus teaches again not to call anybody names.
If I may:
“But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.”
-Mathew 5:22

 

[Castello]

Yes judging people is God’s Job.
By calling someone a sinner you are taking God’s Job.
And Jesus teaches again not to call anybody names.
If I may:
“But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.”
-Mathew 5:22

Young man, do you understand that passage? Go back and read it in context. It is telling us that we cannot be hateful to our brothers and sisters, it is a passage that teaches us how important it is to forgive others.

It says nothing here that forbids admonishing sinners. We are commanded to call sinners to repentance.

Have you not been taught the Spiritual Works of Mercy in CCD?

 

[catharina]

That would be unnecessary; fortunately, she did not refuse the couple service just because they’re gay. She refused them service because the service would be contributing to a sinful act, that is, celebrating a perversion of the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony.

Thank you so much for saying this again.
So many posters have said exactly that.

Mark 4:2-9

2And he taught them at length in parables, and in the course of his instruction he said to them,
3* “Hear this! A sower went out to sow.
4And as he sowed, some seed fell on the path, and the birds came and ate it up.
5Other seed fell on rocky ground where it had little soil. It sprang up at once because the soil was not deep.
6And when the sun rose, it was scorched and it withered for lack of roots.
7Some seed fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked it and it produced no grain.
8And some seed fell on rich soil and produced fruit. It came up and grew and yielded thirty, sixty, and a hundredfold.”
9He added, “Whoever has ears to hear ought to hear.”

 

[SwissGuard25]

Young man, do you understand that passage? Go back and read it in context. It is telling us that we cannot be hateful to our brothers and sisters, it is a passage that teaches us how important it is to forgive others.

It says nothing here that forbids admonishing sinners. We are commanded to call sinners to repentance.

Have you not been taught the Spiritual Works of Mercy in CCD?

What are you talking about it means what it says.

Don’t call you fellow man names or judge others.
Do not question my CCD teachings please