Baking a cake for a homosexual wedding

[gatorsmom]

My family and I are devout Catholics who are faithful to the Magisterium of the Church. We hold up signs and participate in peaceful prayer services in front of abortion clinics, we make donations to Catholic charitable organizations, and we manage our business in a way that we believe the Church would expect- not offering birth control or procured abortion coverage in our employee benefits packages. We really try to be faithful to the teachings of the Church.

However, it has never sat right with me how we have been advised to turn our back on homosexuals who are embracing a homosexual lifestyle. We are also landlords who once had a lesbian couple asking to rent one of our homes. They had children and liked our rental home because of its location for their children. We asked our parish priest how to handle it and he said we should not rent to them. As it turned out, before we could reply to them, they found a cheaper home in location more convenient to them. However, I tried to put myself in their position- how would I feel if I was them and was turned away? How would I feel telling my children that we couldn’t live in that house since the Christian landlord hates queers and their kids? How is that spreading the message of Jesus’ love?

I found this blog post today and it is counter to everything I thought we should do and yet it makes sense. It is beautiful, gives me hope and feels like the path Jesus would take. I would really like to aspire to this. I was hoping to get your opinions on this if you don’t mind taking the time to read it. It’s pretty short:
tenthousandplaces.org/2015/04/01/bake-for-them-two/

Thank you in advance for your opinions and have a Blessed Easter!

 

[1ke]

My However, it has never sat right with me how we have been advised to turn our back on homosexuals who are embracing a homosexual lifestyle.

Hmmmmm, who advised you to turn your back on homosexuals? Not the Church.

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.” They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

We asked our parish priest how to handle it and he said we should not rent to them.

That does not seem to be good advice, legally or morally.

How would I feel telling my children that we couldn’t live in that house since the Christian landlord hates queers and their kids?

You seem unfamiliar with Church teaching. You would actually tell your children something so vile? And furthermore present it as Church teaching? That would be gravely immoral as it is a big, fat, lie.

Perhaps you are a troll?

I found this blog post today and it is counter to everything I thought we should do and yet it makes sense. It is beautiful, gives me hope and feels like the path Jesus would take. I would really like to aspire to this. I was hoping to get your opinions on this if you don’t mind taking the time to read it. It’s pretty short:
tenthousandplaces.org/2015/04/01/bake-for-them-two/

Thank you in advance for your opinions and have a Blessed Easter!

I would suggest instead of blogs you look to actual Church teaching the fonts of morality and concepts such as cooperation with evil (remote, material, proximate, etc). That is much more to the point of this discussion.

 

[gatorsmom]

You seem unfamiliar with Church teaching. You would actually tell your children something so vile? And furthermore present it as Church teaching? That would be gravely immoral as it is a big, fat, lie.

Perhaps you are a troll?

I would suggest instead of blogs you look to actual Church teaching the fonts of morality and concepts such as cooperation with evil (remote, material, proximate, etc). That is much more to the point of this discussion.

Wow, this is pretty hurtful language. I really don’t think there was any reason to call me a troll (unless you were trying to pick a fight or just enjoy being rude). No, I think you might have misread or perhaps I wasn’t clear enough with that comment. I would never tell my children we reject any people. I think I made it pretty clear that I felt that was wrong. I felt the blog gave me hope and seemed to be a more loving way of handling sticky situations like that.

I came here for an open discussion. I’m really interested to hear some helpful comments.

May the peace of Christ be with you today!

 

[1ke]

Wow, this is pretty hurtful language. I really don’t think there was any reason to call me a troll (unless you were trying to pick a fight or just enjoy being rude). No, I think you might have misread or perhaps I wasn’t clear enough with that comment. I would never tell my children we reject any people. I think I made it pretty clear that I felt that was wrong. I felt the blog gave me hope and seemed to be a more loving way of handling sticky situations like that.

I came here for an open discussion. I’m really interested to hear some helpful comments.

May the peace of Christ be with you today!

You are correct, I **did **misread that part of the post!

However, that does not change my answer regarding what Church teaching is and the moral principles you should look at-- the fonts of morality and cooperation with evil.

 

[gatorsmom]

You are correct, I **did **misread that part of the post!

However, that does not change my answer regarding what Church teaching is and the moral principles you should look at-- the fonts of morality and cooperation with evil.

You will have to forgive me. I am a very busy mom of 4 children, one of whom has special needs and a husband that travels most of the week for business. I was hoping to come HERE to get some intelligent answers quickly, summarized and nicely packaged up instead of searching through books with my sleep-deprived brain to piece together an answer.

I did read what you wrote above and I do know the catechism. There was no need to copy it down word for word. But the catechism doesn’t specifically spell out- in the case of a bakery owner who is asked to provide a cake for a homosexual marriage, what would Jesus prescribe? How do you apply the cathechism to that example? 1ke, you clearly have a good grasp of Church teaching- what would YOU do? In some of the comments on the blog someone asked the question “if a women asked you to pay for her abortion, how would you react?” If you did everything you could to change her mind, and she insisted on going through with it, would you hold her hand during the procedure so she wouldn’t be alone? Do you think that would be an example of Jesus’ command that we “go the second mile?”

I’m really looking for someone to apply the Catholic Church’s teachings to the comments and examples raised in this blog entry. I’m having trouble doing it myself.

 

[1ke]

You will have to forgive me. I am a very busy mom of 4 children, one of whom has special needs and a husband that travels most of the week for business. I was hoping to come HERE to get some intelligent answers quickly, summarized and nicely packaged up instead of searching through books with my sleep-deprived brain to piece together an answer.

I am not trying to be flip, but there is no nice, neat, quick answer. The Church does not have a list, as much as non-Catholics accuse it of and as much as many Catholics would like it to.

We have to form our conscience and do it the hard way.

I can suggest:

archphila.org/HHS/pdf/CoopEvilChart.pdf

ewtn.com/library/THEOLOGY/COOPRTN.htm

But the catechism doesn’t specifically spell out- in the case of a bakery owner who is asked to provide a cake for a homosexual marriage, what would Jesus prescribe?

But it does give us the general framework, and together with the Church’s moral teaching on cooperation with evil we can start to form our conscience on the matter.

How do you apply the cathechism to that example? 1ke, you clearly have a good grasp of Church teaching- what would YOU do?

I believe it would be remote material cooperation, and allowable. I think that there are many variables that could make it more or less remote and therefore more or less allowable.

“if a women asked you to pay for her abortion, how would you react?”

That would be immediate material cooperation in evil, and it is a grave sin against the fifth commandment. It could also be an excommunicable action.

If you did everything you could to change her mind, and she insisted on going through with it, would you hold her hand during the procedure so she wouldn’t be alone?

No, I absolutely would not.

Do you think that would be an example of Jesus’ command that we “go the second mile?”

No.

 

[gatorsmom]

Thank you, 1ke, for that helpful clarification. And thank you, ( I think) for giving me some reading material to go through once the children are asleep. Peace to you.

 

[Hans_W]

Gator(name removed by moderator), I think your common sense told you what is the Christian way to act. I am not sure if I would “walk the second mile”, but I would certainly bake them the cake and give it to them with a heartfelt smile.

 

[Gertabelle]

You will have to forgive me. I am a very busy mom of 4 children, one of whom has special needs and a husband that travels most of the week for business. ** I was hoping to come HERE to get some intelligent answers quickly, summarized and nicely packaged up **instead of searching through books with my sleep-deprived brain to piece together an answer.

That would lovely if the only people allowed to reply to your questions were somehow certified theologians, apologists, or canon lawyers. While we do have some of those on CAF, most of us posters are like you – Catholics trying to work it all out, while parenting, working, volunteering, and (at least for me) often sleep-deprived.

I don’t have answers to your questions, sorry. But I just wanted to comment that you need to be very, very careful about expecting every answer here to be actual Church teaching. There are many, many posters I’ve read over the years who say things that are completely opposite of what the Church teaches.

That is why 1ke is recommending that we all form our consciences “the hard way,” because otherwise I’ll just come here and take whatever I agree with as the correct answer, or the truth.

God bless you for your obvious desire to follow Christ! Keep striving after holiness – the Holy Spirit will guide you!

Gertie

 

[St_Francis]

I do not agree with the essay you cited because she misses the whole point. She says that she herself is not against SSM. The problem is that when one believes that SSM is wrong, validates a sinful situation, etc., that there is a different situation than the one cited from the Bible.

Carrying something for someone is not in and if itself wrong. What Christ was doing here was to explain how to obey legal authorities. You obey, then offer to do more. It’s like asking your employee to ask you what to do next when they have finished a task instead of checking their smartphone in a corner.

WRT the lesbian couple, legally one is obligated not to discriminate against them except (at least in some states) under the circumstance if the property you are renting being something like a basement apartment in the house in which you live.

So the questions one would have would be: is the rental place quite close to you? If it is, then you have your family to worry about, and it would be legitimate to turn them down if they would have a lot of contact with your children. Just like a father of teenage girls might decide not to rent his basement apartment to some male college students.

IOW, if you don’t have a good reason for refusing to rent to them, you need to rent to them. You are not responsible for their actions and they are taking possession in exchange for rent. .

I am unclear about the wedding cakes, but very clear on targeting bakers and photographers to generate lawsuits…

 

[Neofight]

I am not trying to be flip, but there is no nice, neat, quick answer. The Church does not have a list, as much as non-Catholics accuse it of and as much as many Catholics would like it to.

We have to form our conscience and do it the hard way.

I can suggest:

archphila.org/HHS/pdf/CoopEvilChart.pdf

ewtn.com/library/THEOLOGY/COOPRTN.htm

But it does give us the general framework, and together with the Church’s moral teaching on cooperation with evil we can start to form our conscience on the matter.

I believe it would be remote material cooperation, and allowable. I think that there are many variables that could make it more or less remote and therefore more or less allowable.

That would be immediate material cooperation in evil, and it is a grave sin against the fifth commandment. It could also be an excommunicable action.

No, I absolutely would not.

No.

And of course you will join me in praying for and with gator mom, won’t you, 1ke?

Peace and all good!

 

[SuperLuigi]

Gator(name removed by moderator), I think your common sense told you what is the Christian way to act. I am not sure if I would “walk the second mile”, but I would certainly bake them the cake and give it to them with a heartfelt smile.

I would consult with a priest or spiritual director on the matter instead of just going with one’s own personal leanings.

 

[meltzerboy]

My family and I are devout Catholics who are faithful to the Magisterium of the Church. We hold up signs and participate in peaceful prayer services in front of abortion clinics, we make donations to Catholic charitable organizations, and we manage our business in a way that we believe the Church would expect- not offering birth control or procured abortion coverage in our employee benefits packages. We really try to be faithful to the teachings of the Church.

However, it has never sat right with me how we have been advised to turn our back on homosexuals who are embracing a homosexual lifestyle. We are also landlords who once had a lesbian couple asking to rent one of our homes. They had children and liked our rental home because of its location for their children. We asked our parish priest how to handle it and he said we should not rent to them. As it turned out, before we could reply to them, they found a cheaper home in location more convenient to them. However, I tried to put myself in their position- how would I feel if I was them and was turned away? How would I feel telling my children that we couldn’t live in that house since the Christian landlord hates queers and their kids? How is that spreading the message of Jesus’ love?

I found this blog post today and it is counter to everything I thought we should do and yet it makes sense. It is beautiful, gives me hope and feels like the path Jesus would take. I would really like to aspire to this. I was hoping to get your opinions on this if you don’t mind taking the time to read it. It’s pretty short:
tenthousandplaces.org/2015/04/01/bake-for-them-two/

Thank you in advance for your opinions and have a Blessed Easter!

This is a wonderful new perspective on the issue. Well, it is not actually new since it originated with Jesus Himself: that is, the idea of truly loving one’s enemies and praying for them. And since, for Jesus (in keeping with Jewish law), loving means not only having the best intentions but, in particular, putting those intentions into action, we are literally presented with going the extra mile rather than merely talking about it. Judaism does not quite go so far as Jesus in this noble way of living, and, as in many other issues, tends to prefer the middle road based on justice and mercy. But I prefer Jesus’ teaching because it forthrightly exemplifies love, a tangible love, a love in action. I wonder how many Christians (or Jews) really understand Jesus’ revolutionary idea or, more important, feel the sentiment behind it? When Jesus pardons the adulteress and immediately afterward tells her to sin no more since He does not condone her sin, the first thing He does, nonetheless, is to behave lovingly toward her. He is taking a stand, walking in another’s footsteps, going that extra mile.

 

[Hans_W]

I would consult with a priest or spiritual director on the matter instead of just going with one’s own personal leanings.

Well, the parish priest did come up with a verdict. Not sure if it was a Christian advice.

 

[JimG]

This is a wonderful new perspective on the issue. Well, it is not actually new since it originated with Jesus Himself: that is, the idea of truly loving one’s enemies and praying for them. And since, for Jesus (in keeping with Jewish law), loving means not only having the best intentions but, in particular, putting those intentions into action, we are literally presented with going the extra mile rather than merely talking about it. Judaism does not quite go so far as Jesus in this noble way of living, and, as in many other issues, tends to prefer the middle road based on justice and mercy. But I prefer Jesus’ teaching because it forthrightly exemplifies love, a tangible love, a love in action. I wonder how many Christians (or Jews) really understand Jesus’ revolutionary idea or, more important, feel the sentiment behind it? When Jesus pardons the adulteress and immediately afterward tells her to sin no more since He does not condone her sin, the first thing He does, nonetheless, is to behave lovingly toward her. He is taking a stand, walking in another’s footsteps, going that extra mile.

Well, the thing is, he does tell her to sin no more. He doesn’t offer to find her two additional customers because she lost one. That would be going the extra mile.

He forgives her sin. He does not cooperate in evil. With respect to the examples of same sex marriage and abortion, the question is about the degree to which we may cooperate in an evil action.

 

[YADA]

Gator(name removed by moderator), I think your common sense told you what is the Christian way to act. I am not sure if I would “walk the second mile”, but I would certainly bake them the cake and give it to them with a heartfelt smile.

How about making a cake for a “Swingers - Open Marriage” party … a party where married couples will mix it up … should a Christian be made to participate in that?

What about plural marriage? - should you have to bake a cake for the local Traditional Mormon marrying his third or forth wife?

How about having to provide a cake for the NARAL Pro-Choice Gala Ball Celebration? Or a Planned Parenthood Donation shin dig … would you bake and loving decorate a cake for them and handed it over with a “heartfelt smile” …

 

[meltzerboy]

Well, the thing is, he does tell her to sin no more. He doesn’t offer to find her two additional customers because she lost one. That would be going the extra mile.

He forgives her sin. He does not cooperate in evil. With respect to the examples of same sex marriage and abortion, the question is about the degree to which we may cooperate in an evil action.

I believe Jesus is indeed going the extra mile by forgiving the woman without even questioning her about the cause of her actions and, furthermore, departing from traditional punishment according to Jewish law. Also, as I stated, although he tells her not to sin anymore, this is apparently not an admonition but more of a wise counsel which is part of Jesus’ loving behavior toward the woman. Jesus answers her sinful behavior with a display of love.

 

[meltzerboy]

How about making a cake for a “Swingers - Open Marriage” party … a party where married couples will mix it up … should a Christian be made to participate in that?

What about plural marriage? - should you have to bake a cake for the local Traditional Mormon marrying his third or forth wife?

How about having to provide a cake for the NARAL Pro-Choice Gala Ball Celebration? Or a Planned Parenthood Donation shin dig … would you bake and loving decorate a cake for them and handed it over with a “heartfelt smile” …

According to the blog, Jesus would no doubt bake two cakes for each group. No one would be denied or made to feel excluded from His love, perhaps together with a wise counsel attached such as to the adulteress whom Jesus forgave.

 

[JimG]

I believe Jesus is indeed going the extra mile by forgiving the woman without even questioning her about the cause of her actions and, furthermore, departing from traditional punishment according to Jewish law. Also, as I stated, although he tells her not to sin anymore, this is apparently not an admonition but more of a wise counsel which is part of Jesus’ loving behavior toward the woman. Jesus answers her sinful behavior with a display of love.

Yes, this is all true. Yet Jesus does nothing in all of this to cooperate in any wrong action. He never does. So the situations are not quite the same. Does loving our neighbor sometimes require us to cooperate in their wrongdoing? That is the question.

If a teenage child asks for a condom, we do not go the extra mile by giving him two. We discourage him from a wrong action. If a woman wishes to kill her unborn child in an abortion, we do not offer to pay for this one and the next one as well.

 

[YADA]

I believe Jesus is indeed going the extra mile by forgiving the woman without even questioning her about the cause of her actions and, furthermore, departing from traditional punishment according to Jewish law. Also, as I stated, although he tells her not to sin anymore, this is apparently not an admonition but more of a wise counsel which is part of Jesus’ loving behavior toward the woman. Jesus answers her sinful behavior with a display of love.

“here you go NARAL Pro-Choice Oregon … the beautiful cake for your fund raising celebration … I wish you wouldn’t use those monies to kill babies … that really isn’t nice you know - Not that I am being judgmental … I hope my cake is a huge benefit to your cause”