Balloon debate: who should jump?

[bilop]

Half right. Kolbe didn’t end his life by his own hand, but he most certainly willed to end his life when he volunteered to die for another. Or, to put a spin on it, Kolbe willed to save another, and he accomplished this by volunteering to die. This is precisely what martyrs do, after all; they will to die for a greater good.

Choosing to risk death by jumping out of the balloon in order preserve the lives of the others in the balloon would not be morally impermissible.

Now tossing someone else out of the balloon? That’d be dead wrong.

– Mark L. Chance.

I disagree, I think they are the same thing.

Also, martyrs don’t will to die for the common good. They accept death rather than give up the Catholic Faith. If you die to save your family or friends, you may be a hero, but you are not a martyr.

A martyr (red martyr to be specific) has to be killed because he refused to foreswear the Catholic Faith. He is automatically a Saint.

God Bless

 

[mlchance]

I disagree…

Fine, but why not disagree with what I actually said?

Also, martyrs don’t will to die for the common good.

mlchance:

This is precisely what martyrs do, after all; they will to die for a greater good.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[bilop]

Fine, but why not disagree with what I actually said?

– Mark L. Chance.

Sorry,

Martyrs don’t die for a “greater good”.

Martyrs die for the Faith. Dieing for a baloon load of people, for a plane load of people, for a city full of people does not make you a martyr.

If the entire population of the United States was going to be wiped out unless you committed suicide, it would be immoral to commit suicide. We may never do an intrinsic evil so that good may come of it.

 

[fix]

I think traditonally martyr was defined as:

The Greek word martus signifies a witness who testifies to a fact of which he has knowledge from personal observation…Thus, within the lifetime of the Apostles, the term martus came to be used in the sense of a witness who at any time might be called upon to deny what he testified to, under penalty of death. From this stage the transition was easy to the ordinary meaning of the term, as used ever since in Christian literature: a martyr, or witness of Christ, is a person who, though he has never seen nor heard the Divine Founder of the Church, is yet so firmly convinced of the truths of the Christian religion, that he gladly suffers death rather than deny it…

newadvent.org/cathen/09736b.htm

 

[hilde_the_dog]

Thank you thechrismyster that is what I was just thinking. how did it take off?

 

[Mirdath]

Thank you thechrismyster that is what I was just thinking. how did it take off?

Some guy magically appeared in it when it was hundreds of feet up. It doesn’t matter in the slightest to the question presented. The illustration is not that hard to grasp, and serves well enough even if it isn’t itself a likely situation.

If you’d prefer to ignore the point of the thread in order to split hairs and laugh at insignificant details, please just don’t bother.

 

[bilop]

I think traditonally martyr was defined as:

The Greek word martus signifies a witness who testifies to a fact of which he has knowledge from personal observation…Thus, within the lifetime of the Apostles, the term martus came to be used in the sense of a witness who at any time might be called upon to deny what he testified to, under penalty of death. From this stage the transition was easy to the ordinary meaning of the term, as used ever since in Christian literature: a martyr, or witness of Christ, is a person who, though he has never seen nor heard the Divine Founder of the Church, is yet so firmly convinced of the truths of the Christian religion, that he gladly suffers death rather than deny it…

newadvent.org/cathen/09736b.htm

I think this last sentence is the key. The martyr “gladly suffers death” (he does not kill himself), rather than deny the “truths of the Christian religion” (not to save other lives or any other reason).

God Bless

 

[thechrismyster]

Some guy magically appeared in it when it was hundreds of feet up. It doesn’t matter in the slightest to the question presented. The illustration is not that hard to grasp, and serves well enough even if it isn’t itself a likely situation.

If you’d prefer to ignore the point of the thread in order to split hairs and laugh at insignificant details, please just don’t bother.

www.buyasenseofhumortopostoninternetforums.com

 

[Smber2c]

www.buyasenseofhumortopostoninternetforums.com

I think his point is there is a real topic to discuss here, and instead 2/3 of the posts are about why the sky is blue. No harm in someone asking if we can keep things on target.

The question is asking if we can choose (pretty much) certain death to save others from (pretty much) certain death - the means of these deaths aren’t very relevant.

(the example we got in college was a group of 6 who crawl down into a damp cave, each carrying dynomite (for whatever reason). The last guy is pretty large and got stuck in the entarance, then water starts to fill the cave. The water’s going to fill the cave and drown everyone below, if big guy isn’t removed, but he’s totally stuck in the only enterance, and only the TNT will get him out (and will kill him). Can they choose to kill him? Can he choose to kill himself?)

I don’t know much on pregnancy terms, but whatever it’s called when a mother had the child implant in the wrong area and they are faced with an either child dies or mom dies…doesn’t the mom have to choose to remove their child (who then almost certainly dies) or not remove their child (and then they almost certainly die)?

I freely admit it is not an identical example, but really it isn’t vastly different either.

I’d say that if I felt me soul was clean of mortal sin, then I’d give my life to save the lives of others. Though, I think this would be more clear by a passive means of death: like stepping out a ballon, going into icy water (a la Titanic), getting a Nazi to shoot me, or were I a woman - have my child grow large enough to survive while my dying in the process. I’m not so sure if I could light 2 sticks of TNT and put them under each arm as say goodbye.

 

[Smber2c]

Sorry,
If the entire population of the United States was going to be wiped out unless you committed suicide, it would be immoral to commit suicide. We may never do an intrinsic evil so that good may come of it.

I think suicide probably isn’t ever acceptable; but is choosing to sacrifice ones own life always suicide?

There are millions of senarios we could make up with these basic ingredients:

1. A whole nation is going to certain death…with one chance of being saved.
2. If a person freely chooses to sacrifice their life and the whole rest of the nation will be saved from death.

And is the answer to this that someone volunteering to be that person is always sinnful? I’m not sure. I think that person is more of a hero (and martyer, though not necessarily a christian martyer).

 

[Kitty_Chan]

:

.

well I liked it, wish I thought of that when I had to do the same one. I remember it was all to get you “thinking” and there was no right or wrong, so really your teacher should have been fine,

I would have loved to see the look on the face tooo funny

 

[MariaGorettiGrl]

“There can be no greater love than to lay down your life for another.”

It doesn’t say squat about “for religious reasons” or who that other person is.

Anyway, sacrificing yourself for others is the pinnacle of Catholic faith. Jesus did it. We are taught to put everyone else before ourself. So dying to save the country, even if it isn’t directly religious, is still religious because you are using the Catholic teachings of self-sacrifice.

That is also the difference between suicide and sacrificing yourself. Suicide is selfish. It hurts others and is done in an attempt to end your own suffering. Sacrificing yourself for others saves others and is done not for your own benefit, but for the benefit of others. Saint Kolbe didn’t committ suicide anymore than Jesus did.

No one is required to give up their life. It is an estraordinary deed, which is why it makes people saints. In this case, it is not a sin to stay in the basket or a sin to jump out.

 

[Wolseley]

:

well I liked it, wish I thought of that when I had to do the same one. I remember it was all to get you “thinking” and there was no right or wrong, so really your teacher should have been fine,

I would have loved to see the look on the face tooo funny

Yeah, I was always getting myself into trouble in classrooms with smug teachers.

I slammed a psych prof one time when he asked if anybody in the room believed in the existance of an “immortal soul”. I said I did, and he smirked and said, “Can you show me a photograph of an ‘immortal soul’?”

And I said, “No, professor, I can’t. Can you show me a photograph of a ‘subconscious mind’?”

Two or three people in the back of the room went “Ooo-OOOOH!” and laughed, and his face went bright purple, but he didn’t say anything.

It was all great fun, but methinks in retrospect that my proclivity for one-upmanship ofttimes trumped my duty to be charitable, and that’s never a good thing in anybody.

 

[bilop]

I think suicide probably isn’t ever acceptable; but is choosing to sacrifice ones own life always suicide?

There are millions of senarios we could make up with these basic ingredients:

1. A whole nation is going to certain death…with one chance of being saved.
2. If a person freely chooses to sacrifice their life and the whole rest of the nation will be saved from death.

And is the answer to this that someone volunteering to be that person is always sinnful? I’m not sure. I think that person is more of a hero (and martyer, though not necessarily a christian martyer).

I think the key difference is sacrificing your life, versus taking your life. It’s subtle but important. Facing death is heroic. Taking your life is not.

To me, jumping out of the baloon is no different than throwing someone else out. You’re taking a innocent life which is intrinsically wrong and can not be justified by the ends it achieves.

God Bless

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Yeah, I was always getting myself into trouble in classrooms with smug teachers.

I slammed a psych prof one time when he asked if anybody in the room believed in the existance of an “immortal soul”. I said I did, and he smirked and said, “Can you show me a photograph of an ‘immortal soul’?”

And I said, “No, professor, I can’t. Can you show me a photograph of a ‘subconscious mind’?”

Two or three people in the back of the room went “Ooo-OOOOH!” and laughed, and his face went bright purple, but he didn’t say anything.

It was all great fun, but methinks in retrospect that my proclivity for one-upmanship ofttimes trumped my duty to be charitable, and that’s never a good thing in anybody.

well I guess, it can get to ones head. but sometimes you have to show the other sheep they dont have to follow bad shepards. I find it strange that school is to get us to learn to think but does it have to be to think like the “party line” or should it be to think for yourself.

 

[Zooey]

[SIGN]
I think this is yet another good reason why we all need to stay out of thosehttp://bestsmileys.com/angry2/6.gif http://bestsmileys.com/angry2/6.gifhot air balloons!!!
[/SIGN]

 

[Wolseley]

well I guess, it can get to ones head. but sometimes you have to show the other sheep they dont have to follow bad shepards. I find it strange that school is to get us to learn to think but does it have to be to think like the “party line” or should it be to think for yourself.

40 years ago, schools existed to help you learn to think for yourself.

Today, they exist to help turn kids into little indoctrinated robots who will not dare to challenge the official state religion of Political Correctness.

But then, I grew up in America. Today I live in what used to be America. I miss that country every day.

 

[Verisimilitude]

The Catholic should be an example of calm and rationality to the others. One of the others will become hysterical and jump of their own accord.

or

The Catholic should be an example of calm and rationality to the others. Just before they crash into the ground the Catholic will ask forgivness for themself and the others.

or

The Catholic should be an example of calm and rationality to the others…

 

[Kuryakyn]

Yeah, I was always getting myself into trouble in classrooms with smug teachers.

I slammed a psych prof one time when he asked if anybody in the room believed in the existance of an “immortal soul”. I said I did, and he smirked and said, “Can you show me a photograph of an ‘immortal soul’?”

And I said, “No, professor, I can’t. Can you show me a photograph of a ‘subconscious mind’?”

Two or three people in the back of the room went “Ooo-OOOOH!” and laughed, and his face went bright purple, but he didn’t say anything.

It was all great fun, but methinks in retrospect that my proclivity for one-upmanship ofttimes trumped my duty to be charitable, and that’s never a good thing in anybody.

I am going to make sure I remember this one.

 

[Smber2c]

I think the key difference is sacrificing your life, versus taking your life. It’s subtle but important. Facing death is heroic. Taking your life is not.
To me, jumping out of the baloon is no different than throwing someone else out. You’re taking a innocent life which is intrinsically wrong and can not be justified by the ends it achieves.

I don’t think the differentiation works like that. Clearly in this example the Catholic is going to die anyway.

As people have quoted above, “There can be no greater love than to lay down your life for another.” To lay ones life down, it has to be given freely, not be taken by force.

You say jumping is the same as throwing someone else…not at all.
Throwing another out the baloon is far different than jumping yourself. If one jumps they are, “laying down your life”. The sacrifice is choosen and offered. This hero is a savior, not of souls but of lives. To toss someone out, is to forceably take another’s life and thus us murder.

As you say, there are subtle differences, but I don’t at all agree on your understanding of them.

“Laying down ones life” is “taking one’s own life”. It is a choice, followed by an action, that says I’m doing something that will result in me being dead and these others being alive. Let’s do it.

If “laying down ones life” means less, if it mean “accepting death when it comes and forces us to die” there is no choice/action, we’re just pretending there is. It’s someone saying, “okay I’m toast, I’m going to die…but I choose this death” - then doing nothing different than if they hadn’t had a thought at all, and dying.