Baltimore: basilica illuminated in honor of death penalty repeal [CWN]

[livingwordunity]

I don’t know about you, but it is generally accepted that if the CCC, the official teaching of the Catholic Church, makes a universal statement, it is to be accepted as the non-negotiable teaching of the Catholic Church.

I know what it says in the Catechism of the Catholic Church about the death penalty. But it seems like you are selecting the parts you like while ignoring an important other part of what it says. Maybe we don’t need the death penalty in America, and maybe we don’t need it in a lot of other countries as well. But even if we don’t need it in most countries that doesn’t mean that it can never be needed even in today’s world. Not every country has an advanced and capable prison system that can guarantee that a convicted killer won’t escape and start on a killing spree. I’m just saying that people seem to want it to be on the same level of evil with abortion which it is not. When the Church talks about abortion there aren’t any ambiguous statements like “it should be safe but rare” or “as long as you are personally opposed to it you can support it”. The Church just straight up says that abortion is murder. I noticed that people try to do the same thing with war and try to say the Church is always against war when there are times when a war can be a just war.

 

[Debora123]

The part that’s negotiable is that the Church leaves it up to governments, on a case by case basis, to decide this as in how the state of Maryland could decide whether they needed it or not. And and in this case, they decided to repeal it. This is quite unlike something like say…abortion, which the Church will always condemn as intrinsic evil no matter what a government has to say about it.

Please stop bringing up abortion as if anyone is arguing for it. There’s no point. No one here supports abortion. Especially not me.

And no, not necessarily. The Church says the DP should only be used if absolutely crucial to keep others safe. Since this is no longer an issue (we have good prisons now), there is no need for the DP anymore. JPII says the DP is “cruel and unnecessary,” and invites us all to pray for an end to it. .

 

[thewanderer]

You are selecting the parts you like and making those into an absolute statement. I’m not saying that I disagree with people in that maybe we don’t need the death penalty. I’m just saying that people seem to want it to be on the same level of evil with abortion which it is not. I noticed that people try to do the same thing with war and try to say the Church is always against war when there are times when a war can be a just war.

I’m really not sure why you are claiming any of the bolded. I am in no way shape or form selectively reading this text. I merely put emphasis on the parts which are important for the point I previously made which you questioned. I thought it would be more polite to direct your attention to the relevent sections of the text I was quoting to help you better understand my point.

The second half of the bolded part confuses me because I have not seen anything on this thread to make me think that people are trying to put the death penalty on the same level as abortion, well, except perhaps you who continuously insisted on calling abortion a death penalty.

Well… I guess even that is not quite correct. People on this thread are not saying that the death penalty is intrinsically evil. What people are saying is that when the strict conditions which the Church has declared as being necessary for the just use of the death penalty are not present it is just as wrong to kill someone via death penalty as it is to kill an unborn child. This is something which anyone who desires to be faithful to the magisterium of the Church is required to hold so I don’t really understand why you seem to have a problem with it.

 

[livingwordunity]

Please stop bringing up abortion as if anyone is arguing for it. There’s no point. No one here supports abortion. Especially not me.

And no, not necessarily. The Church says the DP should only be used if absolutely crucial to keep others safe. Since this is no longer an issue (we have good prisons now), there is no need for the DP anymore. JPII says the DP is “cruel and unnecessary,” and invites us all to pray for an end to it. .

I’m bringing up abortion because someone said that opposition to the death penalty is an absolute non-negotiable. And someone else even called me a dissenter just because I asked a question about it. People are treating the death penalty for criminals as if we were talking about an intrinsic evil like abortion. That’s why I’m bringing up abortion.

 

[Debora123]

I’m really not sure why you are claiming any of the bolded. I am in no way shape or form selectively reading this text. I merely put emphasis on the parts which are important for the point I previously made which you questioned. I thought it would be more polite to direct your attention to the relevent sections of the text I was quoting to help you better understand my point.

The second half of the bolded part confuses me because I have not seen anything on this thread to make me think that people are trying to put the death penalty on the same level as abortion, well, except perhaps you who continuously insisted on calling abortion a death penalty.

Well… I guess even that is not quite correct. People on this thread are not saying that the death penalty is intrinsically evil. What people are saying is that when the strict conditions which the Church has declared as being necessary for the just use of the death penalty are not present it is just as wrong to kill someone via death penalty as it is to kill an unborn child. This is something which anyone who desires to be faithful to the magisterium of the Church is required to hold so I don’t really understand why you seem to have a problem with it.

 

[livingwordunity]

The second half of the bolded part confuses me because*** I have not seen anything on this thread to make me think that people are trying to put the death penalty on the same level as abortion***, well, except perhaps you who continuously insisted on calling abortion a death penalty.

Someone calling me a dissenter just for asking why you said it’s a “non-negotiable”.

 

[Debora123]

I’m bringing up abortion because someone said that opposition to the death penalty is an absolute non-negotiable.

Are you having a difficult time understanding the words that are being typed out to you? The “non negotiable” are the CONDITIONS in which the death penalty is moral. These conditions are listed quite clearly on the CCC, which has been copied and pasted here multiple times now. NO ONE has said the DP is intrinsically evil.

And someone else even called me a dissenter just because I asked a question about it. People are treating the death penalty for criminals as if we were talking about an intrinsic evil like abortion. That’s why I’m bringing up abortion.

I think they called you a dissenter because you seem to be refusing to acknowledge that the Church has set very specific conditions in which the DP is moral… when those conditions are not met, the DP is immoral. That is a non negotiable. Just like every other moral teaching of the Church.

How is anyone here treating the DP like abortion? The only person who keeps mentioning abortion is you. No one here has said “the death penalty is intrinsically evil, like abortion.” I still have 0 idea what the point is of you bringing up abortion to a group of people who are clearly very much against abortion.

 

[thewanderer]

Someone calling me a dissenter just for asking why you said it’s a “non-negotiable”.

Have you considered the possibility that they have misunderstood what your position is? Your posts do kind of come across as though you are trying to get around Church teaching on this matter.

 

[livingwordunity]

Are you having a difficult time understanding the words that are being typed out to you? The “non negotiable” are the CONDITIONS in which the death penalty is moral. These conditions are listed quite clearly on the CCC, which has been copied and pasted here multiple times now. NO ONE has said the DP is intrinsically evil.

I think they called you a dissenter because you seem to be refusing to acknowledge that the Church has set very specific conditions in which the DP is moral… when when those conditions are not met, the DP is immoral.

You are being pretty rude with your arrogant condescending tone. When did I deny what is bolded above?

 

[thewanderer]

You are being pretty rude with your arrogant condescending tone. When did I deny what I bolded?

She never said that you actually denied it, just that your posts make it seem as though you deny it, which is perfectly true. I assume that you do not actually deny Church teaching, but that doesn’t change the fact that your posts on this thread give the impression that you do.

 

[thewanderer]

I’m bringing up abortion because someone said that opposition to the death penalty is an absolute non-negotiable. And someone else even called me a dissenter just because I asked a question about it. People are treating the death penalty for criminals as if we were talking about an intrinsic evil like abortion. That’s why I’m bringing up abortion.

Also, as Deborah pointed out, this is not at all what was said.

 

[livingwordunity]

There is a strong suggestion in the teaching of the Catholic Church that we shouldn’t need the death penalty but, interestingly, never an absolute prohibition of it (i.e. saying that it’s intrinsically evil as abortion is).

She never said that you actually denied it, just that your posts make it seem as though you deny it, which is perfectly true. I assume that you do not actually deny Church teaching, but that doesn’t change the fact that your posts on this thread give the impression that you do.

Look at my post above, and tell me where it is I’m denying what is taught in the Catechism about the death penalty.

 

[Debora123]

You are being pretty rude with your arrogant condescending tone. When did I deny what is bolded above?

Sorry if I am coming across as rude. It irks me sometimes when people on here don’t seem to grasp what has been explained no matter how many times it is presented to them. It just makes it seem like they are purposely not listening. I will try to be more patient.

It seemed like you were denying it when you continued to argue about it after the CCC was posted. I also got that impression from your post #54 when you said the Church leaves it completely up to the gov’t, without mentioning anything about the very strict conditions.

 

[livingwordunity]

Sorry if I am coming across as rude. It irks me sometimes when people on here don’t seem to grasp what has been explained no matter how many times it is presented to them. It just makes it seem like they are purposely not listening. I will try to be more patient.

It seemed like you were denying it when you continued to argue about it after the CCC was posted. I also got that impression from your post #54 when you said the Church leaves it completely up to the gov’t, without mentioning anything about the very strict conditions.

Ok, let me put it this way. I agree completely with all that is taught about the death penalty in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It was the term “non-negotiable” that I had a question about and for which someone else immediately labeled me a dissenter which is something no one has ever called me.

 

[LongingSoul]

Someone calling me a dissenter just for asking why you said it’s a “non-negotiable”.

I was addressing your seeming dissent regarding your presentation of the death penalty as an intrinsic ‘good’ with the same aura as the public authorities divine right to punish criminals. The death penalty is a tool to serve justice, not a principle of justice. Augustine and Aquinas have never presented it that way.

God can authorise the killing of a criminal when justice and the common good require it, but without the strict non-negotiable qualifications that warrant it, it is just another killing of a person. That’s what the Church is trying to save us from by retaining this tool under the conditions of today. The death penalty can become illegitimate under certain circumstances unlike ‘punishment’ per se.

 

[livingwordunity]

I was addressing your seeming dissent regarding your presentation of the death penalty as an intrinsic ‘good’ with the same aura as the public authorities divine right to punish criminals. The death penalty is a tool to serve justice, not a principle of justice. Augustine and Aquinas have never presented it that way.

God can authorise the killing of a criminal when justice and the common good require it, but without the strict non-negotiable qualifications that warrant it, it is just another killing of a person. That’s what the Church is trying to save us from by retaining this tool under the conditions of today. The death penalty can become illegitimate under certain circumstances unlike ‘punishment’ per se.

How about for peace we just agree that in the heat of the discussion there was a break down in communication and we misunderstood what the other person meant. Have a good night everyone.

 

[Ender]

In the one little sentence you cut out and posted, they are talking about penalty/punishment in general. Just a couple paragraphs down from that, they address the death penalty specifically and what the terms are for that.

So is it your opinion that what was said in 2267 changes or negates what was just said in 2266?

You can believe what you want about the Death Penalty, but you can’t negate what the Church teaches about it.

What I believe about the death penalty is what the church has always taught about it, and her teaching on the subject did not begin in 1995.

Ender

 

[Debora123]

Ok, let me put it this way. I agree completely with all that is taught about the death penalty in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It was the term “non-negotiable” that I had a question about and for which someone else immediately labeled me a dissenter which is something no one has ever called me.

Gotcha.

The reason why we are saying this issue is “non negotiable” is because it is in the CCC. It is accepted that all the teachings in the CCC are non negotiable… since they are all church teachings. It doesn’t have to specifically say “btw, this is non negotiable” after every paragraph. I hope that answers your question.

 

[thewanderer]

Look at my post above, and tell me where it is I’m denying what is taught in the Catechism about the death penalty.

Neither me or Debora claimed that you are denying the Church’s teaching on this. I already told you that, so I am very confused as to why you are asking me this.

 

[Ender]

I don’t know about you, but it is generally accepted that if the CCC, the official teaching of the Catholic Church, makes a universal statement, it is to be accepted as the non-negotiable teaching of the Catholic Church.

There is serious debate about the nature of the teaching in 2267 and whether it is a new doctrine or a prudential judgment. If it is doctrine then we are obliged to assent to it but if it is prudential we are not.Like the Pope, the bishops do not rule out capital punishment altogether, but they say that it is not justifiable as practiced in the United States today. In coming to this prudential conclusion, the magisterium is not changing the doctrine of the Church. The doctrine remains what it has been: that the State, in principle, has the right to impose the death penalty on persons convicted of very serious crimes. (Cardinal Dulles, 2001)

As to the Pope’s assertion that the death penalty should today be rare, I would reaffirm, against Justice Scalia, that this is to be understood as an exercise of the Pope’s prudential judgment… Since the Christian revelation tells us nothing about the particulars of contemporary society, the Pope and the bishops have to rely on their personal judgment as qualified spiritual leaders in making practical applications. Their prudential judgment, while it is to be respected, is not a matter of binding Catholic doctrine. To differ from such a judgment, therefore, is not to dissent from Church teaching. (Dulles)
Ender