Baptism and the Holy Spirit

[Anne_G]

I have a friend I met through doing community service who belongs to a Pentecostal Church. I have only come back to the Catholic Church a few years ago after being Baptised as a baby. My friend believes that Baptism is by full immersion and that you can’t be filled with the Holy Spirit unless it is done this way. He also insists that the first and only sign that you are filled with the Holy Spirit is that you “speak in tongues”, and that absolutely every one at his Church does. He believes no Catholics are filled with the Holy Spirit because they are only sprinkled at their Baptism. I am not sure what to think, as when I returned to the Catholic Church I believed the Holy Spirit was with me as that’s what the Church teaches, but I have no gifts that I am aware of that are mentioned in Corinthians. I am unsure as to how to defend myself and the Catholic faith, as he is so against the faith. It’s like talking to a brick wall.

 

[1ke]

Anne G:

I have a friend I met through doing community service who belongs to a Pentecostal Church. I have only come back to the Catholic Church a few years ago after being Baptised as a baby. My friend believes that Baptism is by full immersion and that you can’t be filled with the Holy Spirit unless it is done this way. He also insists that the first and only sign that you are filled with the Holy Spirit is that you “speak in tongues”, and that absolutely every one at his Church does.

It doesn’t matter what he thinks. Neither he nor his church have the authority of Christ to teach doctrine. The Catholic Church does have this authority.
Anne G:

He believes no Catholics are filled with the Holy Spirit because they are only sprinkled at their Baptism.

I assume you meant “not” filled… well, he is wrong, Catholics are not “sprinkled” (this is a derogatory term they use for Catholic baptism). Some Catholics are immersed, some have water poured over their heads. It depends on the configuration of the baptismal font. And, ancient documents going all the way back to the first century support BOTH immersion and pouring.

Baptism confers the remittance of sin and sanctification, and we receive the Holy Spirit.

The bible nowhere states “how” baptism must be performed. In fact, if you read of St Paul’s baptism, he is baptized inside a house-- not likely to have been full immersion but rather pouring.
Anne G:

I am not sure what to think, as when I returned to the Catholic Church I believed the Holy Spirit was with me as that's what the Church teaches,

You should still believe this as it is true.
Anne G:

but I have no gifts that I am aware of that are mentioned in Corinthians.

The “gifts” from Corinthians are not necessarily given to any specific person nor must they be demonstrated by every person. You have many of your own gifts.
Anne G:

I am unsure as to how to defend myself and the Catholic faith, as he is so against the faith. It’s like talking to a brick wall.

STOP talking with this person about religion. They will only confuse you. Seriously-- just put that topic off limits. People in these evangelical denominations use what I call “Scriptural grenades”… they take Scripture OUT OF CONTEXT to try to confuse you. Until you’ve done extensive bible study, you will be unable to see that they are false and misleading because they do not present ALL that the bible teaches on the subject. SO, stay away from it until you are better educated.

You should first begin reading solid Catholic books and magazines, Catholic Answers is a great place to start. Go to the Catholic Bookstore in your town or online and look at Apologetics and Catechesis books. You need to study your faith and the Bible. Get a Catechism and begin reading. The new companion Catechism will be out soon, and it’s a simplified “Q&A” format. Catholic Exchange and other Catholic websites (like www.salvationhistory.com) have free Bible studies.

Do not be deterred, you are in the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church founded by Christ. Stick with your studies and do not be troubled by these statements of your friend. Once you have studied your faith you will see how silly they actually are.

 

[Todd_Easton]

Regarding the scope of the word baptism, consider the following passage:4And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing (Greek: baptismos) of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables. (Mark 7:4 KJV)

Ask your Pentecostal friend if he routinely washes his table by full immersion. No? Then, obviously, the word baptism can have a broader meaning than just full immersion.

The Bible says that Philip baptized the Ethiopian eunuch in some water they found while on a desert road. (Acts 8:26-38) How much water could there have been on a desert road after all?

I suggest your friend read what the Didache, a first-century Church manual, has to say about baptism:And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water [that is, in a river]. But if you have no living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. (*Didache, *chapter 7)

Regarding the gift of speaking in tongues, St. Paul says:

4Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; 5and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; 6and there are varieties of working, but it is the same God who inspires them all in every one. 7To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8To one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. (1 Corinthians 12:4-10)
And later in the same chapter he rhetorically asks:
29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? (1 Corinthians 12:29-30)
(The answer to each of these rhetorical questions is, No.)

It should be clear from these words of St. Paul that not everyone in Church is given the gift of speaking in tongues but only to those whom the Spirit so wills for the common good and not for the individual that he should think himself somehow a better or more complete Christian than his neighbor for it. There have been a number of Catholics who have had the gift of speaking in tongues throughout its 2000-year history.

Remind your Pentecostal friend that Balaam’s donkey was given the gift of speaking in tongues so nothing special can be inferred about a person’s relationship with God, if he should be given such a gift. (Numbers 22:28)

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Hi Anne G, I would nail them with the Didache, which is a church manual dated about 90-110 AD.

CHAPTER 7
Baptism

1 Concerning baptism, baptise thus: Having first rehearsed all these things, “baptise, in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,” in running water; 2 but if thou hast no running water, baptise in other water, and if thou canst not in cold, then in warm. 3 But if thou hast neither, pour water three times on the head “in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.” 4 And before the baptism let the baptiser and him who is to be baptised fast, and any others who are able. And thou shalt bid him who is to be baptised to fast one or two days before.

earlychristianwritings.com/text/didache-lake.html

Concerning speaking in Tongues, 1 Corinthians 12

27Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31But eagerly desire the greater gifts.
And now I will show you the most excellent way. ( love chapter follows ).

The answer is not everyone is an apostle, prophet, teacher, miracle worker, healer, tongue speaker, interpretator.

So, this person does not have a chance to confuse you, read through the book of Acts for yourself. Concentrate on phrases related to the Holy Spirit like “filled” “full” “upon” “pour”, not in every case does one speak in tongues. Note in Acts 2, that they spoke only known human languages, not gibberish.

For example, Stephen in Acts 6-7 did not speak in tongues. The text plainly says his gift is,

Acts 6
8Now Stephen, a man full of God’s grace and power, did great wonders and miraculous signs among the people. 9Opposition arose, however, from members of the Synagogue of the Freedmen (as it was called)—Jews of Cyrene and Alexandria as well as the provinces of Cilicia and Asia. These men began to argue with Stephen, 10but they could not stand up against his wisdom or the Spirit by whom he spoke.

Bottom line, what seems to be common in all cases of being filled with the Holy Spirit is the power, strength to live the christian life and witness boldly for Jesus our Lord.

If you are new to the faith and have not studied enough to discuss your faith with them, I agree that you should cut off such discussions with them because they do simply proof text without reguard for context of history.

The Didache is a historical document that gives you a context concerning baptism.

 

[Anne_G]

Thankyou all for you help.

With regards to the gifts in Corinthians, I read it the same as you have said, that we are given one or more of these gifts, and that speaking in tongues is just one that we may receive.

I will use the Didache document if need be, and yes I do try to avoid the subject of religion. He is the one that persists on it, and I find it very intimidating.

I won’t ever leave the Catholic Church as I believe it is the true Church, I just find it very upsetting the way he runs it down.

Truth be, the Church he belongs to only set up in the 1960’s so they obviously aren’t the Church that Jesus set up.

I read the Bible every day, and study it and feel I am getting there with it, but will go over the sections you have all quoted.

Thanks again for your help

 

[Philthy]

Anne G:

I have a friend I met through doing community service who belongs to a Pentecostal Church.

Community service, huh? sounds like the holy Spirit to me
Anne G:

I have only come back to the Catholic Church a few years ago after being Baptised as a baby. My friend believes that Baptism is by full immersion and that you can’t be filled with the Holy Spirit unless it is done this way.

A tradition of man. There is no such claim in the Bible, which is his rule of faith, and there is no historical justification for such a claim either. There is nothing wrong with full immersion baptism, its just that it is not the only valid Baptism.
Anne G:

He also insists that the first and only sign that you are filled with the Holy Spirit is that you “speak in tongues”,

A tradition of man. There is no such claim in the Bible, which is his rule of faith, and there is no historical justification for such a claim either.
Anne G:

and that absolutely every one at his Church does.

Oh sure, he’s in the only church, ever, to have 100% saved Christians in it without one “Judas” among them. This is also totally unbiblical.
Anne G:

He believes no Catholics are filled with the Holy Spirit because they are only sprinkled at their Baptism.

Well, he has some serious explaining to do. Pick a Saint and you will see a Christian life that would make his look Pagan. Blessed Mother Teresa, for example…
Anne G:

I am not sure what to think, as when I returned to the Catholic Church I believed the Holy Spirit was with me as that’s what the Church teaches, but I have no gifts that I am aware of that are mentioned in Corinthians. I am unsure as to how to defend myself and the Catholic faith, as he is so against the faith. It’s like talking to a brick wall.

Have you read all of 1st and 2nd Corinthians? Do yourself a favor and read them, and remember that LOVE is above all else, not prophesying…

 

[JezCat]

Tell your friend to read 1Cor 14.