Baptism apologetic

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A friend of mine and I argue all the time about Baptism being necessary for salvation. He, as a Baptist, says acceptance of Jesus is the most important thing. Well I have given him all the apologetic stuff that I can think of including ECF quotes.
Here’s my question, Would the following be an accurate statement and/or what is a good way to formulate it: Just as the Holy Spirit descended on Jesus when He was baptized, so do we receive sanctifying grace from the Holy Spirit when we are. What was so important about Baptism that it took Jesus’ baptism for the Holy Spirit to descend then? He could have come anytime but it was the baptism, as a significant event, for that to occur.
thanks
 
I would skip the Baptism of Jesus and go straight to what Jesus told Nicodemus:
Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. [John 3:5]
Then I would have a romp in the Book of Acts.
 
A friend of mine and I argue all the time about Baptism being necessary for salvation. He, as a Baptist, says acceptance of Jesus is the most important thing. Well I have given him all the apologetic stuff that I can think of including ECF quotes.
Here’s my question, Would the following be an accurate statement and/or what is a good way to formulate it: Just as the Holy Spirit descended on Jesus when He was baptized, so do we receive sanctifying grace from the Holy Spirit when we are. What was so important about Baptism that it took Jesus’ baptism for the Holy Spirit to descend then? He could have come anytime but it was the baptism, as a significant event, for that to occur.
thanks
Jesus is God. Jesus did not need the Holy Spirit to descend on him.

After all the people had been baptized and Jesus also had been baptized and was praying, heaven was opened and the holy Spirit descended upon him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven, “You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased.” (Luke 3:21-22)

Matthew, Mark, and Luke are using the occasion to refer his audience to the prophecy of Isaiah, to indicate that Jesus is the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy.

*The spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him:
a spirit of wisdom and of understanding,
A spirit of counsel and of strength,
a spirit of knowledge and of fear of the LORD,
(Isaiah 11:2)

Here is my servant whom I uphold,
my chosen one with whom I am pleased
.
Upon him I have put my spirit;
he shall bring forth justice to the nations.
(Isaiah 42:1)

The spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me,
because the LORD has anointed me;
He has sent me to bring good news to the afflicted,
to bind up the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives,
release to the prisoners
(Isaiah 61:1)*

It’s a reference back to Isaiah, and a fulfillment of prophecy in the person of Jesus Christ.

What Jesus and all the people from Jerusalem and the surrounding contryside were doing was actually a Jewish ritual purification bath called a tevilah.

At that time Jerusalem, all Judea, and the whole region around the Jordan were going out to him and were being baptized by him in the Jordan River as they acknowledged their sins. (Matthew 3:5-6)

The ritual tevilah was a purification bath, where one was totally immersed in flowing water. The water could not be a stagnant pool or a puddle, but had to be “Living” or flowing water. Jesus was taking the Jewish ritual tevilah and through his participation, was upgrading it to the status of a sacrament.

I think your statement about sanctifying grace is accurate, but Jesus did not need it. It is probably more correct that he was demonstrating it, or perhaps more correct to say that he was giving it to us as a gift.

The choice of the tevilah purification bath, upgraded to the status of a sacrament which transmits graces, was a replacement for circumcision. Circumcision for the Jews was the means whereby one entered into the covenant which God made with Israel at Mt. Sinai after having been freed from slavery in Egypt. The institution of the Eucharist was the replacement for the Passover meal whereby each member of God’s covenant family actually participated in the Exodus from Egypt as a member of the covenant.

All of these actions of Jesus cannot be comprehended fully outside of their Jewish context of the Exodus and Israel’s covenant relationship with God. Without the Jewish context, there will always be something missing, as is evidenced by the incomplete theology of some of the non-Catholic Churches.

-Tim-
 
What was so important about Baptism that it took Jesus’ baptism for the Holy Spirit to descend then? He could have come anytime but it was the baptism, as a significant event, for that to occur.
It was incredibly significant event, although not out of necessity (i.e., objectively speaking, Jesus did not have to be baptized) but in terms of God’s intended plan of salvation for humanity. In the ancient world, priests and kings were anointed with oil when being officially designated in their respective roles. God promised to send the Messiah, and the word Messiah (as well as Christ) means “anointed one”. So the Messiah is supposed to be the anointed of God. A traditional interpretation of the Baptism of Jesus is as follows: Jesus, being the Divine Messiah, is not anointed with oil (as mortal kings and priests are), but directly by the Holy Spirit. Hence, his baptism was his anointing.
 
Two other passages:1 Peter 3:18-21 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christand*Romans 6:3-5 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? We were buried therefore with Him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with Him in a death like His, we shall certainly be united with Him in a resurrection like His.*Baptism is how we are attached to Christ, so to speak, as Paul asserts above to the Romans. You see how Paul emphasizes the unity into Christ’s death and resurrection when we are baptized. Peter likewise above says that baptism saves with power through Christ’s resurrection. Plus Peter says the water in baptism not so much cleanses the outer body from “dirt” but the conscience––in other words, we have a clear conscience because sin is removed.
 
Plus, to get the full effect of baptism, we must look to the Old Testament (kind of like Peter did regarding Noah in 1 Pet. 3 above). Take for example another letter of Paul’s:*1 Corinthians 10:1-2 I want you to know, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.*You see how the passing through the Red Sea is a type of baptism. Remember, the chosen people escaped the bondage of slavery in Egypt by passing through the “water.” This corresponds to baptism. Paul evokes the very term.

Interestingly, Paul says the OT “baptism” in this figure includes the “cloud” and the “sea.” What’s interesting about those two figures in Paul’s text is that the cloud is a type of the Holy Spirit (cf. CCC#697 for examples), and the sea is, of course, water. As pointed out in John 3:5 earlier in this thread: “no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.” Paul draws these images from the OT “baptism” into Moses by the images of the Spirit (cloud) and water (sea).

It’s great to be Catholic. :o
 
Peter wrote that it is “baptism that saves us” as did Christ quoted above. Follow through Acts and examine all the instances where people are baptized. Consider that St. Paul makes some of the most explicit statements about baptism in Scripture, yet at the end of Matthew’s gospel, Christ is shown commanding his apostles to baptize and teach. I don’t think there is anything in Scripture more explicit than baptism except perhaps obedience to God, of which baptism is a part.
 
A friend of mine and I argue all the time about Baptism being necessary for salvation. He, as a Baptist, says acceptance of Jesus is the most important thing. Well I have given him all the apologetic stuff that I can think of including ECF quotes.
Here’s my question, Would the following be an accurate statement and/or what is a good way to formulate it: Just as the Holy Spirit descended on Jesus when He was baptized, so do we receive sanctifying grace from the Holy Spirit when we are. What was so important about Baptism that it took Jesus’ baptism for the Holy Spirit to descend then? He could have come anytime but it was the baptism, as a significant event, for that to occur.
thanks
Have you ever really studied the doctrine of baptism? They were O.T. “washings.” Paul mentions these washings in Heb. 9:10. The Greek word for “washings” is baptismos. The nation of Israel was told that they would one day become a “kingdom of priests” [Ex. 19:5,6 cf 1 Peter 2:9]. The initatory rite into this priesthood was a washing [baptism] with water [Ex. 29:4; 40:12, etc.]. John the Baptist came preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins [Mark 1:4] Peter preached this same baptism in Acts 2:38. The prudent student of the Word will note that both John and Peter were speaking to a people still under the Law, Israel.
Check it out.
QC
 
A friend of mine and I argue all the time about Baptism being necessary for salvation. He, as a Baptist, says acceptance of Jesus is the most important thing. Well I have given him all the apologetic stuff that I can think of including ECF quotes.
Here’s my question, Would the following be an accurate statement and/or what is a good way to formulate it: Just as the Holy Spirit descended on Jesus when He was baptized, so do we receive sanctifying grace from the Holy Spirit when we are. What was so important about Baptism that it took Jesus’ baptism for the Holy Spirit to descend then? He could have come anytime but it was the baptism, as a significant event, for that to occur.
thanks
What I do not understand about Southern Baptists (even when I was one myself) is the idea that baptism is merely symbolic. Well, if it’s merely symbolic, then why not just pretend to use water, and why emphasize immersion over sprinkling? Why insist on a certain method when the madness is merely symbolic? In other words, if baptism isn’t necessary for salvation, then surely immersion is not necessary for baptism.

Furthermore, if it is merely an “ordinance” or a symbolic gesture or a demonstration of the believer’s faith, then I must ask, Is that not an empty ritual? Isn’t it ironic that Baptists harangue Catholics for their cold and empty religious practices, while simultaneously practicing empty rituals “in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit” that have no effect on the believer’s soul? At least our “rituals” have meaning! At least our “rituals” draw us closer to God, by His Grace! And what does Jesus say about those who practice such empty rituals that are merely for demonstrative purposes?

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 6:1[/BIBLEDRB]

:bible1:
 
Peter wrote that it is “baptism that saves us” as did Christ quoted above. Follow through Acts and examine all the instances where people are baptized. Consider that St. Paul makes some of the most explicit statements about baptism in Scripture, yet at the end of Matthew’s gospel, Christ is shown commanding his apostles to baptize and teach. I don’t think there is anything in Scripture more explicit than baptism except perhaps obedience to God, of which baptism is a part.
Peter is addressing Israel in 1 Peter 3:21. Notice 1:1 and compare with Gal. 2:9. He is preparing Israel to become a “kingdom of priests” [Ex. 19:5,6; 1 Peter 2:9. Our Lord Jesus Christ did command the 11 apopstles [later 12] to baptize, but note what Paul writes in 1 Cor. 1:17. The Lord Jesus Christ commanded Paul to “preach the gospel” and water baptism was not part of that gospel. Paul mentions the “one baptism” for the Body of Christ in Epoh. 4:5 and 1 Cor. 12:13 - The Holy Spirit baptizing believers into the Body of Christ - no water here.
QC
 
Peter is addressing Israel in 1 Peter 3:21. Notice 1:1 and compare with Gal. 2:9. He is preparing Israel to become a “kingdom of priests” [Ex. 19:5,6; 1 Peter 2:9. Our Lord Jesus Christ did command the 11 apopstles [later 12] to baptize, but note what Paul writes in 1 Cor. 1:17. The Lord Jesus Christ commanded Paul to “preach the gospel” and water baptism was not part of that gospel. Paul mentions the “one baptism” for the Body of Christ in Epoh. 4:5 and 1 Cor. 12:13 - The Holy Spirit baptizing believers into the Body of Christ - no water here.
QC
So, what do you make of the “water and the holy Spirit” from John 3:5? Why water, if it is as you insinuate, unnecessary?
 
There may be a few verses that mention baptism, but there are more verses that mention faith without baptism. If you can find 5 verses that say baptism saves or remits sin, I can find 10 verses that say salvation is by faith without any mention of baptism. Therefore, baptism is not necessary.

““For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (John 3:16)” You just have to believe

“For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. (Ro 3:28)” Faith is all you need. You don’t have to follow any laws or commandments

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. (Eph 2:8-9) All works excluded. That would include baptism.

I’m pretty sure all good Baptists know what Jesus meant when he said one must be “born of water and spirit” (John 3:5). Born of water refers to the amniotic fluid present at childbirth. Born of spirit refers to being spiritually “born again” which happens after one gets saved by believing in Jesus.

What I wrote above isn’t my personal beliefs. It’s what I’ve heard from Baptists and what they will probably tell you when you try to convince one of them that baptism is required. In all likelihood, nothing you say will convince a Baptist that baptism is required for salvation. Some Baptists believe one needs to trust Christ alone to be saved. Relying on baptism or any other work for salvation would mean that you aren’t trusting Christ alone (which according to some would mean that one is going to Hell).
 
There may be a few verses that mention baptism, but there are more verses that mention faith without baptism. If you can find 5 verses that say baptism saves or remits sin, I can find 10 verses that say salvation is by faith without any mention of baptism. Therefore, baptism is not necessary.
Those baptists are setting scripture against scripture. They seem to be consciously ignoring the “5 verses that say baptism saves or remits sin.”
 
No true adult believer in Christ should refuse baptism. Baptism is a union with Christ “…we are baptized unto Christ”. An immersion baptism, as Paul says in Romans, seems to be the best identification with His death, burial and resurrection. We die to self as one enters the water, and comes forth a “new creation”. It is a command of Christ to be baptized. It demonstrates to others, if adult baptism, the seriousness of our commitment to follow Christ and be obedient to his command. Although I have always felt immersion was the “proper” mode of baptism, due to the word baptismo (to immerse…not sprinkle or pour) it is what is in the heart that is key. .
 
So, what do you make of the “water and the holy Spirit” from John 3:5? Why water, if it is as you insinuate, unnecessary?
Good question. The logical answer is: Our Lord Jesus Christ was teaching a “ruler of the Jews.” He was teaching about the “kingdom of God.” You will recall that our Lord spent His last 40 days on earth teaching the eleven about the “kingdom of God” from the Old Testament. This would be that kingdom that the prophets foretold that will be on this earth with our Lord Jesus Christ sitting on David’s throne in Jerusalem and the 12 apostles sitting on "twelve thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel [Mt. 19:28]. Remember, that our Lord’s earthly ministry [1st advent] was only to the “lost sheep of the house of Israel.” [Mt. 15:24]. It is obvious that the 11 understood our Lord’s teaching about this early kingdom by asking the question of Acts 1:6, “Will you, AT THIS TIME, RESTORE THE KINGDOM TO ISRAEL?” Water baptism was an O.T. cleansing [Heb. 9:10] “imposed” until the time of reformation. And it was required as the initatory rite into the Jewish priesthood [Ex. 19:5,6; 40:12 cf 1 Peter 2:9. Peter is an apostle to the circumcision [Mt. 10:5; Gal. 2:9]. You will note that his speeches in early Acts are all directed to Israel - not the Body of Christ [Acts 2:14,22; 3:12; 4:10].
QC
 
There may be a few verses that mention baptism, but there are more verses that mention faith without baptism. If you can find 5 verses that say baptism saves or remits sin, I can find 10 verses that say salvation is by faith without any mention of baptism. Therefore, baptism is not necessary.
XianThinker, I know that you have clarified that the things you listed are not your personal beliefs (nor were they mine when I was a Protestant; I’m a former Anglican), and I thank you for sharing them, as this gives representation of an opposing view for the purpose of consideration. As such, I think that a response to the things you shared would also be beneficial for this thread discussion.

I know people make the claims you cited, but how well do they make the case in the context of Scripture in its entirety? In other words, do such people formulate their doctrine based on a few stand-alone verses, or do they test their interpretation against other Bible verses? Here are some examples of what I am referring to…
““For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (John 3:16)” You just have to believe
1) What does it mean to “believe” in Christ? People have different opinions, but here is what Christ, himself, said:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do” (John 14:12, emphasis added)

Therefore, if I profess to believe in Jesus then I ought to do the works that he did, and that includes baptism. Not only did Jesus allow himself to be baptized by John (as a model and example to us) but also made baptizing others an integral part of the Great Commission:

“Go therefore and make disciples of all nations,
baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you” (Matthew 28:19-20, RSV)

2) If all that is required in order to be saved is to just believe in Christ then why isn’t the devil saved? After all, the devil believes in Christ. So evidently it is not enough for one to just believe.
“For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. (Ro 3:28)” Faith is all you need. You don’t have to follow any laws or commandments
**1) ** And yet Jesus makes an incredibly profound statement about the importance of commandments when he said:

"If you love me, you will keep my commandments.” (John 14:15, RSV)

Moreover, as is seen in the above quote from Matthew 28:19-20, the essence of the Great Commission is to baptize others and teach them God’s commandments.

2) Paul did not say, “any laws or commandments” but rather “the Law”. In other words, obedience to the Law of Moses is no longer the process by which people are to seek justification, but this does not mean that people are allowed to violate such things as the Ten Commandments. Elsewhere, Paul points out that those who violate the Ten Commandments will be barred from heaven, so the commandments (and other aspects of moral living) still play a role in God’s plan of salvation for humans:

Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God. (1Cor 6:9-10, RSV)

And notice that Paul then says to the Corinthians…

And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. (1Cor 6:11, RSV, emphasis added)

Evidently, Paul realized the harsh tone of this condemnation of sinners and that some of the Corinthians may well have committed some of the sins he listed. Therefore, he gives assures them that sins are cleaned when one is “washed …in the name of The Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God” which is a baptism reference. And if it is not a baptism reference, then why didn’t Paul clarify it when the obvious and natural interpretation of the reader would be to consider it to be a description of baptism? Those who want to interpret the washed imagery as something other than baptism must make extrapolations beyond what Paul actually taught.

(Continued in my next post)
 
(Continued…)

3) In this exact same epistle, Paul writes:

For he will render to every man according to his works:
to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;
but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness,
there will be wrath and fury. (Romans 2:6-8, RSV, emphasis added)

So according to Paul, salvation is linked with doing well and obeying the truth, and condemnation results from obeying wickedness (i.e., committing sin).
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. (Eph 2:8-9) All works excluded. That would include baptism.
1) With the exception of those who believe that everyone will automatically be saved (a belief that actually contradicts the Bible), all Christians believe that salvation is contingent upon some sort of work. Ask a Christian, “What is needed for salvation?” and the response will include some sort of action that I am supposed to undertake, and an action is a work (moreover, in this case it is a work that one is free to do or not to do). Am I to “accept Jesus as my personal Lord and Savior”? If so, then accepting Jesus is the work. Am I to “believe in Jesus and trust in the gospel message of salvation”? If so, then believing and trusting are the works. Am I to recite the Sinner’s Prayer? If so, then reciting the Sinner’s Prayer is the work. So what is actually being debated is the work(s) that needs to be done in accordance with God’s plan of salvation, rather than a debate about works vs. no works.

2) What Paul is saying in Ephesians is that apart from God our works are incapable of earning our salvation. Christ is the only one who can earn it, and he did this for us in giving his life for our salvation. But salvation is a gift of love, and therefore (as with any true gift of love) we are free to accept or reject it. The means by which we accept salvation are the works that are to be done. The sacramental way that we do this begins with baptism.

3) If salvation “excludes all works” then why did James write:

What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?
If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them,
“Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body,
what does it profit? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. (James 2:14-17, RSV, emphasis added)

Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren?
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works,
and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God.
You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead. (James 2:20-26, RSV, emphasis added)
I’m pretty sure all good Baptists know what Jesus meant when he said one must be “born of water and spirit” (John 3:5). Born of water refers to the amniotic fluid present at childbirth. Born of spirit refers to being spiritually “born again” which happens after one gets saved by believing in Jesus.
Even though all good Baptists know this, I think the important question is, can they quote even one Christian, prior to the Reformation, who interpreted John 3:5 as not signifying the sacrament of baptism? If not, then this is a very strong indication that a non-baptism interpretation of John 3:5 is not apostolic.
What I wrote above isn’t my personal beliefs. It’s what I’ve heard from Baptists and what they will probably tell you when you try to convince one of them that baptism is required. In all likelihood, nothing you say will convince a Baptist that baptism is required for salvation.
Generally speaking, I agree. For example, some may hear the sort of things that I presented and be moved to re-examine their interpretation of Scripture, and consequently may change their beliefs concerning the role of baptism (possibly converting to Catholicism or to a Protestant denomination which teaches a more prominent baptism theology). But, by and large, I am sure that others would have counter-interpretations to what I have presented in my posts. After all, the debate has gone on for approximately five centuries.
Some Baptists believe one needs to trust Christ alone to be saved. Relying on baptism or any other work for salvation would mean that you aren’t trusting Christ alone (which according to some would mean that one is going to Hell).
Of course, this criticism stems from a misunderstanding of what Catholics teach. Relying on baptism is not done instead of relying on Christ, but a means by which we rely upon him. After all, many ancient religions had cleansing rituals, including Judaism, but the only one we trust is the one instituted by Christ and empowered by his grace.
 
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