Baptism by Blood?

[Brian777]

I have heard many traditional and Traditionalist(sedevacantists) Catholics say that baptism by blood is still true baptism, in other words that someone who is not Catholic but a heretical Christian can be saved through Martyrdom, the same going for a non-Christian who desires baptism but cant recieve and yet is martyred for the Faith anyway. However if this is true in the traditional circles, how do we explain this quote from Pope Eugenius IV’s Cantate Domino?

“No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.”- Pope Eugene IV

It would appear the Holy Father negates the idea of baptism by blood in an infallible statement.

Any thoughts or explanation on this would be greatly appreciated, God bless you all.

 

[Dauphin]

Baptism of blood does not apply to heretics or schismatics, but only those who are martyred for the Catholic faith.

(P.S. Why you steal my signature? )

 

[Brian777]

I’m not sure if i understand you, so baptism by blood only applies to those who desire baptism, and are martyred for this before they can get baptism? Because heretics and schismatics were already baptized sacramentally?

(P.S. Because it is infallible Truth and needs to be proclaimed!

 

[Dauphin]

I’m not sure if i understand you, so baptism by blood only applies to those who desire baptism, and are martyred for this before they can get baptism?

Precisely.

Because heretics and schismatics were already baptized sacramentally?

No heretic or schismatic can be saved, so whether they have received sacramental baptism is irrelevant. Heresy and schism sever one from the Body of Christ.

 

[Brian777]

Precisely.

No heretic or schismatic can be saved, so whether they have received sacramental baptism is irrelevant. Heresy and schism sever one from the Body of Christ.

wait did you mean cannot be saved? why is there baptism irrelevant. sorry if im misssing something blatantly obviuos

 

[Eucharisted]

Schismatics and heretics can be saved - no one is excluded from God’s Mercy. You have to want to be damned to be damned, because God sends no one to hell. Those who are members of other churches are not schismatics or heretics but non-Catholic Christians; to call them schismatics or heretics would be an insult and not theologically correct, since they have neither committed heresy or schism.

 

[Dauphin]

wait did you mean cannot be saved? why is there baptism irrelevant. sorry if im misssing something blatantly obviuos

From the exact same document you have quoted in your signature:

“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the “eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matthew 25:41), unless before death they are joined with Her”

The baptism of a heretic or schismatic is no longer relevant because such people have, by their sin, lost the grace of God and been severed from the Body of Christ. The indelible character of baptism remains (remission of original sin), but they will not be saved.

 

[Dauphin]

Schismatics and heretics can be saved - no one is excluded from God’s Mercy. You have to want to be damned to be damned, because God sends no one to hell.

This is contrary to the Church’s dogmatic teaching. No one who obstinately denies Catholic doctrine or obstinately remains outside of communion with the Roman Pontiff can be saved.

Those who are members of other churches are not schismatics or heretics but non-Catholic Christians; to call them schismatics or heretics would be an insult and not theologically correct, since they have neither committed heresy or schism.

It’s true that people don’t automatically become heretics and schismatics at birth. Someone baptised in a protestant community or Orthodox Church can be saved, but only if they have not committed the sin or heresy or schism. Once they reach the age of reason, and are not bound by some insurmountable obstacle, it is necessary for them to come into explicit communion with the Catholic Church.

 

[bilop]

From the exact same document you have quoted in your signature:

“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the “eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matthew 25:41), unless before death they are joined with Her”

The baptism of a heretic or schismatic is no longer relevant because such people have, by their sin, lost the grace of God and been severed from the Body of Christ. The indelible character of baptism remains (remission of original sin), but they will not be saved.

I think schismatics are in a whole different class from heretics.
Schism over discipline is not the same as denying the truths of the Church.

I would not automatically presume scismatics can’t be saved. It depends on the reason for their schism.

God Bless

 

[Dauphin]

I think schismatics are in a whole different class from heretics.
Schism over discipline is not the same as denying the truths of the Church.

I would not automatically presume scismatics can’t be saved. It depends on the reason for their schism.

God Bless

“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” - Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam

Communion with the Roman Pontiff isn’t optional. Schism cannot be excused for any reason. The Chair of Peter is the intrinsic source and sign of the Church’s unity. If you are not united to it, at least implicitly, you are not in the Church.

 

[Brian777]

Schismatics and heretics can be saved - no one is excluded from God’s Mercy. You have to want to be damned to be damned, because God sends no one to hell. Those who are members of other churches are not schismatics or heretics but non-Catholic Christians; to call them schismatics or heretics would be an insult and not theologically correct, since they have neither committed heresy or schism.

um actually calling a Protestant a heretic is not incorrect because they have been baptised yet have also rejected the catholic faith. that is the basic definition of a heretic. The problem comes from reading the Canons on baptism from the council of trent. The bishops stated in them that those who maintian that heretical baptism does what catholic baptism does are anethema. So this would seem to back up your idea. As far as schismatics are concerned, all those within a Church that is schismatic are schismatics once they reject fromally the True Church, but not before. Ill will concede that to call ALL protestants and eastern(and some western) christians heretics/schismatics is a blanket judgement that should not be made, but once they have formally rejected conversion, then they can be labeled as such.

From the exact same document you have quoted in your signature:

“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the “eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matthew 25:41), unless before death they are joined with Her”

The baptism of a heretic or schismatic is no longer relevant because such people have, by their sin, lost the grace of God and been severed from the Body of Christ. The indelible character of baptism remains (remission of original sin), but they will not be saved.

unless of course they reunite themselves with Holy Mother Church before their death.

 

[Eucharisted]

Dauphin,

Did Jesus die for all men, or did He only die for a few? If He died for all men, than all can be saved, and no one is excluded from God’s Mercy. If He died for only a few men, though, than only a few can be saved, and many are excluded from God’s Mercy. I believe - as dose Mother Church - that Jesus died for all men.

As far as damnation is concerned, I’m sure you’re aware that love is a choice, it is action, and this is why we must unite our prayers to action and action to prayer, that we might be saved. If we so choose to reject God, we have chosen damnation, and we choose to reject God by our actions: mortal sins. Heresy and schism are mortal sins, so those who choose to commit them have killed their immortal souls. But God dose not send anyone to hell, He wills all to be saved, as Scripture tells us; so He dose everything in His power to save the schismatic and heretic.

“Outside the Church there is no salvation” means that all salvation comes from Christ through His Body, that is, the Church, just as by dying on a cross with a Body Christ has redeemed mankind. The Church, being the Body of Christ, is the Sacrament of Salvation - hence, there is no salvation outside her. While God can certainly save those outside the Church by means only know to Him - just as He can save unbaptized babies - it is by the Church’s prayers that the person’s salvation is obtained (not won, but obtained, for only Christ has won for us all graces, but we being members of His Body can obtain graces for others).

 

[Dauphin]

Dauphin,

Did Jesus die for all men, or did He only die for a few? If He died for all men, than all can be saved, and no one is excluded from God’s Mercy. If He died for only a few men, though, than only a few can be saved, and many are excluded from God’s Mercy. I believe - as dose Mother Church - that Jesus died for all men.

Where have I said that Christ did not die for all men or that God’s mercy does not extend to all?

As far as damnation is concerned, I’m sure you’re aware that love is a choice, it is action, and this is why we must unite our prayers to action and action to prayer, that we might be saved. If we so choose to reject God, we have chosen damnation, and we choose to reject God by our actions: mortal sins. Heresy and schism are mortal sins, so those who choose to commit them have killed their immortal souls. But God dose not send anyone to hell, He wills all to be saved, as Scripture tells us; so He dose everything in His power to save the schismatic and heretic.

“Outside the Church there is no salvation” means that all salvation comes from Christ through His Body, that is, the Church, just as by dying on a cross with a Body Christ has redeemed mankind. The Church, being the Body of Christ, is the Sacrament of Salvation - hence, there is no salvation outside her.

All of this is perfectly compatible with what I said. We don’t have a disagreement.

While God can certainly save those outside the Church by means only know to Him - just as He can save unbaptized babies - it is by the Church’s prayers that the person’s salvation is obtained (not won, but obtained, for only Christ has won for us all graces, but we being members of His Body can obtain graces for others).

God has revealed to us the way that men are saved, and it is only through His Church. So, the way of salvation is very much known to us. At the very least, implicit communion with the Church is required.

Concerning unbaptised babies, I hold to the teaching of Limbo, which says that, although unbaptised babies who die do not suffer in hell, they also do not see the beatific vision. The Church hasn’t “done away” with Limbo, so there’s room for disagreement on this topic.

 

[bilop]

“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” - Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam

Communion with the Roman Pontiff isn’t optional. Schism cannot be excused for any reason. The Chair of Peter is the intrinsic source and sign of the Church’s unity. If you are not united to it, at least implicitly, you are not in the Church.

So, the Orthodox have no hope for salvation?

God Bless

 

[Dauphin]

So, the Orthodox have no hope for salvation?

God Bless

Not if they obstinately refuse communion with the Roman Pontiff, no. This is the Church’s dogmatic teaching.

 

[bilop]

Not if they obstinately refuse communion with the Roman Pontiff, no. This is the Church’s dogmatic teaching.

But, of course, they don’t believe they are in schism, and they have efficacious sacraments.

I’m not so sure they are not part of the Church, despite not being part of the visible Church.

I’m not sure that a schismatic, who acts in good faith, and holds to no heresy really does separate from the Church.

God Bless

 

[Eucharisted]

Where have I said that Christ did not die for all men or that God’s mercy does not extend to all?

“This is contrary to the Church’s dogmatic teaching. No one who obstinately denies Catholic doctrine or obstinately remains outside of communion with the Roman Pontiff can be saved.”

God has revealed to us the way that men are saved, and it is only through His Church. So, the way of salvation is very much known to us. At the very least, implicit communion with the Church is required.

Concerning unbaptised babies, I hold to the teaching of Limbo, which says that, although unbaptised babies who die do not suffer in hell, they also do not see the beatific vision. The Church hasn’t “done away” with Limbo, so there’s room for disagreement on this topic.

The Church is the way of salvation, true, but to say God cannot save those outside the Church - who do not even have implicit communion with the Church - is an insult against the omnipotence of God and against the Passion and Death of Christ. For if God cannot save those outside the Church, even those who do not have implicit communion with the Church, than He is not omnipotent, He can only save a few, and to say He can only save a few would be an insult against Christ, who died to redeem all and who opened up heaven for all.

It is through the Church - through her prayers - that God saves those not yet among her fold. Those who do not yet know the gospel are not automatically damned, are they? Certainly not! God saves them by means He alone knows, and this isn’t to say we don’t know the Church is the Sacrament of Salvation, but rather, it is to say we don’t know God’s ways; His ways are mysterious! But we can help Him in saving souls by praying for sinners, for the conversion of sinners - yet this isn’t to say God isn’t omnipotent, but rather, as members of the Body of Christ, that is, the Church, we are required to obtain for many graces, and God works thorugh His creatures, just as through Mary He brought the Messiah and Savior of mankind into the world.

As for limbo, I will not make a theological comment on it, for I am not a theologian. But I will say that the unborn do have a chance to be saved, if only their parents desire the child’s baptism and pray, with hope, for the child’s salvation. It is an extra-ordinary means of salvation, a great gift of the Mercy of God, who, willing all to be saved, using every means possible to save souls.

 

[Dauphin]

“This is contrary to the Church’s dogmatic teaching. No one who obstinately denies Catholic doctrine or obstinately remains outside of communion with the Roman Pontiff can be saved.”

You disagree with this? The sins of heresy and schism sever one from the Church. Christ died for all, and God’s mercy extends to all, but this doesn’t mean that we can deny the Church’s faith or sever ourselves from her.

All of this is perfectly compatible with what I said. We don’t have a disagreement.

Do you really agree? Let’s look at your next statement…

God has revealed to us the way that men are saved, and it is only through His Church. So, the way of salvation is very much known to us. At the very least, implicit communion with the Church is required.

Concerning unbaptised babies, I hold to the teaching of Limbo, which says that, although unbaptised babies who die do not suffer in hell, they also do not see the beatific vision. The Church hasn’t “done away” with Limbo, so there’s room for disagreement on this topic.

The Church is the way of salvation, true, but to say God cannot save those outside the Church - who do not even have implicit communion with the Church - is an insult against the omnipotence of God and against the Passion and Death of Christ. For if God cannot save those outside the Church, even those who do not have implicit communion with the Church, than He is not omnipotent, He can only save a few, and to say He can only save a few would be an insult against Christ, who died to save all.

No, you’ve got it completely wrong. The Church believes the Catholic dogma is Divinely revealed. Therefore, it is God who teaches that there is no salvation outside of the Church. Since God cannot contradict himself, he will not save those who are not at least implicitly united to the Church.

To say that God can do something contrary to what he has revealed is an insult against the perfection of God.

It is through the Church - through her prayers - that God saves those not yet among her fold. Those who do not yet know the gospel are not automatically damned, are they? Certainly not! God saves them by means He alone knows, and this isn’t to say we don’t know the Church is the Sacrament of Salvation, but rather, it is to say we don’t know God’s ways; His ways are mysterious!

We know what God has revealed, and He has revealed that there is no salvation outside the Church. Maybe you believe that the doctrine of the Church is simply human invention, and doesn’t have a Divine origin?

If you’re talking about the innocently ignorant, then the Church has always taught that such people can be saved through a baptism of desire, so their salvation is not outside the Church.

 

[Dauphin]

But, of course, they don’t believe they are in schism, and they have efficacious sacraments.

I’m not so sure they are not part of the Church, despite not being part of the visible Church.

I’m not sure that a schismatic, who acts in good faith, and holds to no heresy really does separate from the Church.

God Bless

Then you doubt what the Church has defined.

 

[Eucharisted]

No, you’ve got it completely wrong. The Church believes the Catholic dogma is Divinely revealed. Therefore, it is God who teaches that there is no salvation outside of the Church. Since God cannot contradict himself, he will not save those who are not at least implicitly united to the Church.

You are very much like a Protestant, twisting the words of the teaching of Mother Church! Do you honestly believe that God is not omnipotent enough to save all souls? For this is your reasoning. No salvation outside the Church dose not mean those outside the Church are not saved, but rather, it is Christ alone who saves, and because the Church is His Body, it is through the Church that He saves, both the members of His Body and those outside the Church. Again, if God cannot save those outside the Church, than He is not omnipotent, nor would He will to save all - so He woud be contradicting His own Word, for in Scripture we read that God wills to save all.

We know what God has revealed, and He has revealed that there is no salvation outside the Church. Maybe you believe that the doctrine of the Church is simply human invention, and doesn’t have a Divine origin?

If you’re talking about the innocently ignorant, then the Church has always taught that such people can be saved through a baptism of desire, so their salvation is not outside the Church.

Not only the innocently ignorant can be saved, but even the worst of sinners. The conversion of Saint Paul shows us this, very clearly. The ordinary means of salvation is baptism, but there are extra-ordinary means, which only known to God, so those outside the Church can be saved, for God excludes no one from His Mercy. But if you wish to save those outside the Church cannot be saved, than you would be insulting God’s Mercy and showing distrust toward the Lord, as well as mocking the Death of Christ, who opened up heaven for all and has redeemed all.