Baptism by Blood?

[Lee_M]

I’ve shown you the teaching. At this point, I wonder if you’re not feigning stupidity just to irritate me, of if your mind is really totally unhinged:

Your remarks are quite uncharitable. I have not seen any posts in this thread that have been stupid.

 

[Lee_M]

Absolutely not. You cannot deny Our Lord and be saved.

This is one of the most fundamental articles of Catholic doctrine.

I believe the Catechism states otherwise. If Muslims and Jews have been raised in their tradition, they would “innocently” deny that Jesus is the Messiah.

On the other hand, if they “knew” that he is the Messiah, and then rejected him, they would not be saved.

 

[Eucharisted]

Daupin, it would be good to speak about your beliefs with a priest, because I believe you’re nearing heresy. I mean this not as an attack on your person, but just as my advice, for your greater good. Talking to a priest about salvation will do you no harm, anyways. I’ll pray for you.

 

[Dauphin]

I believe the Catechism states otherwise. If Muslims and Jews have been raised in their tradition, they would “innocently” deny that Jesus is the Messiah.

On the other hand, if they “knew” that he is the Messiah, and then rejected him, they would not be saved.

The Catechism absolutely does not say this. No one is free to deny Christ. There is no such thing as “innocently” denying Christ.

The Catechism presents the perennial Catholic teaching that those who are innocently ignorant of Catholic doctrine (ie. through no fault of their own, they do not know Christ and His Church) can be saved if they follow the will of God and implicitly desire baptism.

 

[Dauphin]

Daupin, it would be good to speak about your beliefs with a priest, because I believe you’re nearing heresy. I mean this not as an attack on your person, but just as my advice, for your greater good. Talking to a priest about salvation will do you no harm, anyways. I’ll pray for you.

I think quite the opposite has been demonstrated.

You have no rebuttal to my argument, so you resort to calling me a heretic.

I’ve presented you with the perennial Catholic teaching, using dogmatic statements of the Church. If you don’t want to accept the Catholic faith, that’s your business, but don’t attempt to falsify it.

 

[Eucharisted]

I think quite the opposite has been demonstrated.

You have no rebuttal to my argument, so you resort to calling me a heretic.

I’ve presented you with the perennial Catholic teaching, using dogmatic statements of the Church. If you don’t want to accept the Catholic faith, that’s your business, but don’t attempt to falsify it.

I resort to asking you to talk to a priest. If you’re afraid of the priest, fine. But if you honestly believe that what you believe is the teachings of the Church, than talking to a priest will do you no harm, for the priest will reaffirm your beliefs and strengthen your faith. However you see it, talking to a priest about salvation is for your greater good.

 

[Dauphin]

I resort to asking you to talk to a priest. If you’re afraid of the priest, fine. But if you honestly believe that what you believe is the teachings of the Church, than talking to a priest will do you no harm, for the priest will reaffirm your beliefs and strengthen your faith. However you see it, talking to a priest about salvation is for your greater good.

So that’s it?

Why don’t you address my argument? Why won’t you address the plain text of the dogmatic teachings I’ve presented to you?

I assume it’s because you have no coherent argument to make.

Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus.

 

[bilop]

I believe the Catechism states otherwise. If Muslims and Jews have been raised in their tradition, they would “innocently” deny that Jesus is the Messiah.

On the other hand, if they “knew” that he is the Messiah, and then rejected him, they would not be saved.

I don’t believe that is true. Maybe someone raised in a Muslim country who never hears the Gospel preached. But for someone who has, and still denies Christ, being raised in another religion does not rise to the level of “innocent ignorance”.

What you are saying is very close to the heresy of indifferentism, i.e. a “good Jew” or “good Muslim” can be saved just as easily as a faithful Catholic. That is just untrue, and the Church has never taught it.

God Bless

God Bless

 

[Lee_M]

The Catechism absolutely does not say this. No one is free to deny Christ. There is no such thing as “innocently” denying Christ.

The Catechism presents the perennial Catholic teaching that those who are innocently ignorant of Catholic doctrine (ie. through no fault of their own, they do not know Christ and His Church) can be saved if they follow the will of God and implicitly desire baptism.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."330

Muslims and Jews innocently do not believe that Jesus Christ is the way to heaven. If they knew that Jesus was the way to heaven and chose to reject it, than they would not receive salvation. However the Catechism clearly states the plan of salvation includes those who acknowledge the Creator. That would clearly be Christians, Jews, and Muslims.

Your opinion is also different than the apologists on this site:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=255729

 

[Lee_M]

I don’t believe that is true. Maybe someone raised in a Muslim country who never hears the Gospel preached. But for someone who has, and still denies Christ, being raised in another religion does not rise to the level of “innocent ignorance”.

What you are saying is very close to the heresy of indifferentism, i.e. a “good Jew” or “good Muslim” can be saved just as easily as a faithful Catholic. That is just untrue, and the Church has never taught it.

God Bless

God Bless

So now you are accusing me of being a heretic? Are the apologists on this site heretics?

 

[Dauphin]

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

Muslims and Jews innocently do not believe that Jesus Christ is the way to heaven. If they knew that Jesus was the way to heaven and chose to reject it, than they would not receive salvation. However the Catechism clearly states the plan of salvation includes those who acknowledge the Creator. That would clearly be Christians, Jews, and Muslims.

Your opinion is also different than the apologists on this site:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=255729

The “plan of salvation” reference is extremely vague, so not much can be gleaned from it. It has to be interpreted in the context of the Church’s Sacred Tradition, which has already been presented. Those who are born into the Muslim religion can be saved, but only if they are innocently ignorant of Christ and His Church. What you linked to confirms this, and doesn’t say that a Muslim can reject Catholic doctrine and be saved.

No one is free to reject Christ or refuse to enter His Church if they know of it.

 

[Lee_M]

What you are saying is very close to the heresy of indifferentism, i.e. a “good Jew” or “good Muslim” can be saved just as easily as a faithful Catholic. That is just untrue, and the Church has never taught it.

God Bless

God Bless

I never said that they can be saved just as easy as a faithful Catholic. Catholics have the Sacraments to help attain salvation. But I am saying that it isn’t impossible for non-Catholics to receive salvation.

 

[Dauphin]

So now you are accusing me of being a heretic? Are the apologists on this site heretics?

You misunderstood what that apologist was saying. She was speaking of innocent ignorance, and said that those Jews who commit heresy (ie. reject Catholic doctrine) cannot be saved.

 

[Dauphin]

I never said that they can be saved just as easy as a faithful Catholic. Catholics have the Sacraments to help attain salvation. But I am saying that it isn’t impossible for non-Catholics to receive salvation.

Salvation is only received through the Church. They have to be at least implicitly united to her to have salvation.

This isn’t some fallible opinion; it’s the dogmatic teaching of the Church. Why do you refuse to take it seriously?

 

[Lee_M]

The “plan of salvation” reference is extremely vague, so not much can be gleaned from it. It has to be interpreted in the context of the Church’s Sacred Tradition, which has already been presented. Those who are born into the Muslim religion can be saved, but only if they are innocently ignorant of Christ and His Church. What you linked to confirms this, and doesn’t say that a Muslim can reject Catholic doctrine and be saved.

No one is free to reject Christ or refuse to enter His Church if they know of it.

No, what I just linked to confirms that you are wrong in your interpretation of what is innocently ignorant.

 

[Lee_M]

Salvation is only received through the Church. They have to be at least implicitly united to her to have salvation.

This isn’t some fallible opinion; it’s the dogmatic teaching of the Church. Why do you refuse to take it seriously?

Do you believe that Fr. Vincent Serpa doesn’t take dogmatic teaching seriously?

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=14870

Again, your belief differs from the beliefs of the apologists on this site. I guess they are not taking dogmatic teaching seriously either.

 

[Dauphin]

No, what I just linked to confirms that you are wrong in your interpretation of what is innocently ignorant.

There is no “interpretation” of “innocently ignorant”. To be innocently ignorant means to not be culpable for your lack of knowledge. That’s the definition.

If a person does not know Christ or His Church through no fault of their own, they can be saved by adhering closely to God’s will and implicitly desiring baptism.

 

[Dauphin]

Do you not believe that Fr. Vincent Serpa takes it seriously?

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=14870

Again, your belief differs from the beliefs of the apologists on this site. I guess they are not taking dogmatic teaching seriously either.

The dogmatic, infallible teaching of the Church is that no one who obstinately rejects Catholic doctrine or obstinately remains outside of communion with the Roman Pontiff can be saved. In order to be saved, a person must respond to the truth which is known to them. Only if they are innocently prevented from joining the Church can they be saved without explicit communion.

“Outside of the Church, nobody can hope for life or salvation unless he is excused through ignorance beyond his control” - Pope Pius IX, Singulari Quidem

 

[bilop]

So now you are accusing me of being a heretic? Are the apologists on this site heretics?

I’m not accusing you of that, I don’t honestly think you hold to indifferentism.

But you can’t seriously hold that a Muslim or Jew who is aware of the teachings of the Church, and refuses to accept them is likely to be saved?

Even ignoring the lack of belief in Christ (which is almost always required for Salvation), without recourse to Christ, how would their sins be forgiven?

God Bless

 

[bilop]

newadvent.org/summa/3002.htm#article7

See Saint Thomas Aquinas above, Article 7.

God Bless