Baptism confusion

[Laura_Jean]

My daughters boyfriend is attending RCIA to understand why she believes so strongly in the Catholic faith. He is struggling with many issues, but the biggest struggle is with baptism. He doesn’t see where Scripture proves it is necessary for salvation or that baptism saves. He is particularly bothered by infant baptism since it doesn’t allow for the free-will of the child. They have read together the CCC section on baptism and looked at many Scripture passages, but so far he just doesn’t get it. Any and all help is greatly appreciated!

 

[bmadamsberry]

I would suggest asking this question in the apologetics forum.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Does he have a problem with:

1 Peter 3:21 even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. (let me guess, the 2nd half of the verse means baptism was not mentioned in the 1st half?)

You can also consult other Scripture and Tradition. Beyond that you can only lead a horse to water but you can’t always make it drink. Do your best to answer his questions and if you feel it’s not going anywhere you should consider letting go for a while—don’t forget praying and penance for him can also help! God has to move him, after all.

 

[panevino]

Jewish parents incl mary and Joseph circumcised
thier baby as part of initiation in to old covenant.
At 8 days old.

 

[wisdomseeker]

My daughters boyfriend is attending RCIA to understand why she believes so strongly in the Catholic faith. He is struggling with many issues, but the biggest struggle is with baptism. He doesn’t see where Scripture proves it is necessary for salvation or that baptism saves. He is particularly bothered by infant baptism since it doesn’t allow for the free-will of the child. They have read together the CCC section on baptism and looked at many Scripture passages, but so far he just doesn’t get it. Any and all help is greatly appreciated!

It is difficult for non Catholics to understand who we are. i always point first to the Jews, how the Jews did what God told them to do. they have a responsibility to raise their children as Jews. so as for us Catholics since we came from the Jews. non Catholics dont understand this. we belong to the Church built by Christ and all His teachings. Jesus never said: let the children grow up so they can choose to believe whatever they want.

hope this help.

 

[neophyte]

…He doesn’t see where Scripture proves it is necessary for salvation or that baptism saves.

There are a couple of difficulties here:

1. The question of whether or not all revealed truth is contained in scripture. So he needs to deal with the fact that the bible doesn’t say that it is.
2. What does he mean by “necessary”? Non-Catholics typically think it means “everyone without exception must be baptised with water in order to be saved”. What it really means is more like “that’s the normal way, and if you know that it’s the normal way then you have to do it if you are able”. He needs to understand the issues of culpability and the fact that God doesn’t require of us something that is impossible, but that he did establish a particular way for by which we are to come to him under normal circumstances.
3. Baptism saves… well, the passage about “baptism now saves you” has been quoted already.

…He is particularly bothered by infant baptism since it doesn’t allow for the free-will of the child.

That’s sort of like being bothered by giving an infant some unpleasant medical care, since that doesn’t allow for the free-will of the child either. An adult could freely decide to reject both, but the baby can neither accept nor reject either.

I’m a ski patroller, and one of the things I have to deal with is the issue of patient consent. The general rule is that if someone is incapable of giving consent (maybe they’re unconscious), then consent is implied because a reasonable person would consent to receiving help in those circumstances. Infants are among those who are incapable of giving consent, and so consent is either implied or is legally given (or withheld) by their parents.

The same principle applies in the case of infant baptism - the parents may legitimately infer that their child would consent to baptism were he capable. The child is legally and morally the charge of his parents.

…They have read together the CCC section on baptism and looked at many Scripture passages, but so far he just doesn’t get it. Any and all help is greatly appreciated!

My entry into the Church was made easier once I had dealt with the issue of authority: to whom did Christ give authority to teach in His name, and what did they teach on that authority? Having concluded that that authority is vested in the Magesterium of the Catholic Church, any time I ran into the limits of my understanding I had to fall back on the realization that Christ didn’t give me the authority to determine the answers to controversies of faith. To paraphrase the Westminster Confession: He gave that authority to the government that He established and placed in the hands of Church officers.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Although there is no such valid concept in “by scripture alone” (not one verse to that effect is in the bible) this is an easy topic to argue by scripture alone. But if these people are becoming Catholic they need to abandon the whole cloth error of sola scriptura BEFORE they are received into the Catholic Church since this corrupt Protestant theory and neo-tradition is the precursor to the worst imaginable heresies in Christendom today.

Jesus said:
*Mattthew 19:14 But Jesus said, “Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”

Luke 18:15-16 “Now they were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them; and when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them. But Jesus called them to him, saying, ‘Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of God’” *

St. Paul taught us:
That Baptism replaces the Jewish rite of circumcision which was performed AT THE PARENTS DIRECTION on their children on the 8th day of birth. As an aside note here the analog of the “8th day” is a Christian term for The Lord’s Day - a day of new creation when Christ rose again.

Col 2:11-12 "…and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

Further The Christian Church has ALWAYS baptised infants with only a few latent challenges to this in the middle-ages. But the bible has it recorded as well as the the later Church histories show:

From the Bible Evidence:
Lydia was converted by Paul’s preaching and that “She was baptized, with her household” (Acts 16:15). The Philippian jailer whom Paul and Silas had converted to the faith was baptized that night along with his household. We are told that “the same hour of the night . . . he was baptized, with all his family” (Acts 16:33). And in his greetings to the Corinthians, Paul recalled that, *“I did baptize also the household of Stephanas” (1 Cor. 1:16). *

In all these cases, whole households or families were baptized. This means more than just the spouse; the children too were included. If the text of Acts referred simply to the Philippian jailer and his wife, then we would read that “he and his wife were baptized,” but we do not. Thus his children must have been baptized as well. The same applies to the other cases of household baptism in Scripture.

From Church History we also have the evidence:
Origen, in the 3rd century wrote: “according to the usage of the Church, baptism is given even to infants” (Holilies on Leviticus, 8:3:11 [A.D. 244]).

Further The Council of Carthage, in 253, condemned the opinion that baptism should be withheld from infants until the eighth day after birth. Later, Augustine taught, "The custom of Mother Church in baptizing infants is certainly not to be scorned . . . nor is it to be believed that its tradition is anything except apostolic" (Literal Interpretation of Genesis 10:23:39 [A.D. 408

A good “scripture only” case can be found here: scripturecatholic.com/baptism.html

James*

 

[Timothy_Piper]

My daughters boyfriend is attending RCIA to understand why she believes so strongly in the Catholic faith. He is struggling with many issues, but the biggest struggle is with baptism. He doesn’t see where Scripture proves it is necessary for salvation or that baptism saves. He is particularly bothered by infant baptism since it doesn’t allow for the free-will of the child. They have read together the CCC section on baptism and looked at many Scripture passages, but so far he just doesn’t get it. Any and all help is greatly appreciated!

Here are a few versus to help discern the truth of God concerning water baptism and it effects upon salvation.

Acts 10:44-48
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47 “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we {did,} can he?” 48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.

Matthew 3:11
"As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; **He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. **

Luke 3:16
John answered and said to them all, "As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Acts 11:12-18 These six brethren also went with me and we entered the man’s house. 13 "And he reported to us how he had seen the angel standing in his house, and saying, ’Send to Joppa and have Simon, who is also called Peter, brought here; 14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.’ 15 “And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as {He did} upon us at the beginning. 16 "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 "Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as {He gave} to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?” 18 When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, “Well then, **God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance {that leads} to life.” **

John 1:29-33
"Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! 30 "This is He on behalf of whom I said, ‘After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’ 31 “I did not recognize Him, ***but so that He might be manifested to Israel, I came baptizing in water.” ***32 John testified saying, "I have seen the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and He remained upon Him. 33 "I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, 'He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.'

Acts 1:4-5
He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, “Which,” He said, "you heard of from Me; 5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

John 7
But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet {given,} because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Acts 8:14-17
14 Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them Peter and John, 15 who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; ***they had simply been baptized {by Water-mine} in the name of the Lord Jesus. ***17 Then they {began} laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit.

“I am the way, the truth, and the Life, and no one comes to the Father but by Me.” (John 14:6)

"the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.(Romans 10)

Therefore the Law has become our tutor {to lead us} to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized {immersed-mine} into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. (Galatians 3)
**
Hope this help in discerning the effects of water on salvation.**

 

[Ignatius33]

I) NECESSITY OF BAPTISM

All can agree that immersion in water symbolizes not only death and purification, but also renewal and regeneration. The Catholic Church teaches that, through the Sacrament of Baptism (called the “sacrament of faith”), all sins – both original (from Adam [1 Cor. 15:21-22; Rom. 5:12-21; Eph. 2:3]) and actual – are literally washed away, and that the soul is infused with sanctifying grace by the power of the Holy Spirit. Hence, Baptism’s two principal effects are purification from sins and rebirth in the Holy Spirit (Jn. 3:5; Acts 2:38). The Catechism of the Catholic Church states: “Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the spirit, and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission: Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water in the word” (CCC 1213).

Catholics look to a number of Bible passages to support the notion that Baptism (i.e., the Baptism instituted by Christ, not John the Baptist’s baptism of repentance) is not merely a symbolic gesture only to be followed as a ritualistic ordinance. For example, Peter saw Noah’s ark as prefiguring salvation by Baptism: “*n [the ark] a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water. This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ” (1 Pet. 3:20-21). Peter also preached to the crowd that they must repent “and every one of you must be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” In response, 3,000 were baptized (Acts 2:38). Catholics note the sequence of this text: first comes repentance, then Baptism – which literally effects the forgiveness of sins – and then, through Baptism, the receipt of the Holy Spirit. This verse makes sense only if Baptism is a sacrament, not a symbol; otherwise, why would Peter – as did Jesus (Matt. 28:19; Mk. 16:16) – stress the need for Baptism?

Furthermore, Ananias told Paul to “be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name” (Acts 22:16). Paul later wrote that “it was for no reason except his own faithful love that he saved us, by means of the cleansing water of rebirth and renewal in the Holy Spirit which he has so generously poured over us through Jesus Christ our Savior; so that, justified by his grace, we should become heirs in hope of eternal life.” (Titus 3:5) He further articulated a link between Baptism, sanctification and justification (seen as interrelated by Catholics but separated by many Evangelicals) when he observed that “you have been washed clean, you have been sanctified, and you have been justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ through the Spirit of our God” (1 Cor. 6:11). Again, Catholics see significance in the sequence: the “washing” of Baptism internally changes the person, bringing about sanctification and justification. Paul also remarked: “You cannot have forgotten that all of us, when we were baptized into Christ Jesus, were baptized into his death. So by our baptism into his death we were buried with him, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the Father’s glorious power, we too should begin living a new life” (Rom. 6:3-4; see also Col. 2:12). The idea that we are made one with Christ through Baptism is reiterated by Paul in Galatians 3:27, where he likens Baptism to being “clothed in Christ” (see also 1 Cor. 12:13). Finally, the Bible repeatedly stresses the import of Baptism, indicating that Baptism is the means by which one makes a faith commitment (Matt. 28:19; Mk. 16:16; Acts 2:38, 8:36-38, 16:31-33).

To the Catholic, one of the most significant of the baptismal passages is found in chapter 3 of the Gospel of John. In the well-known dialogue between Jesus and Nicodemus, Jesus remarks that “no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above” (Jn. 3:3). When Nicodemus asks how one can be “born again” after natural childbirth, Jesus answers: “In all truth I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born through water and the Spirit” (Jn. 3:5). While a small minority of Evangelical scholars adhere to the Catholic view that this passage refers to a single event – Baptism –others have a unique take on it, positing that the water refers to amniotic fluid, not Baptism (to preserve their view that Baptism has nothing to do with salvation, which, in their view, comes about only through an individual acceptance of Christ as personal savior). Despite the plain sense of the passage (why would Jesus go out of his way to emphasize that one must be born of amniotic fluid to enter heaven?) and the traditional Christian understanding of it to the contrary, Evangelicals point out that this interpretation is reasonable because Nicodemus had just mentioned natural childbirth. A Catholic would respond that the Evangelical interpretation is inconsistent with the aforementioned texts (e.g., Acts 2:38; 1 Pet. 3:20-21; Titus 3:5, etc.), all of which emphasize that Baptism is not a mere ritual or ordinance. Likewise, had Jesus truly meant that one must be born as a human baby, why wouldn’t He have used a less confusing means of conveying this idea, such as “being born from a woman” or “of the flesh?” (furthermore, there is apparently no ancient text anywhere identifying childbirth with being “born of water”). Similarly, the text conjoins “water and the Spirit” as one idea – it does not indicate that they are two separate events.

continued…*

 

[Ignatius33]

The Catholic would also note that a previous chapter (of course, there were no “chapters” or “verses” until the Middle Ages) records Jesus’ own baptism, which combines water and the Spirit (in the form of a dove) (Jn. 1:32-33) and that, immediately following Jesus’ discourse with Nicodemus, the Bible records the only time during Jesus’ ministry that He Himself baptized people (Jn. 3:22), emphasizing that Jesus was indeed talking about Baptism in John 3:5.

The Church Fathers unanimously interpreted John 3:5 to mean exactly what the Catholic Church teaches. To give a few examples:

1. St. Justin Martyr:

“Whoever is convinced and believes that what they are taught and told by us is the truth, and professes to be able to live accordingly, is instructed to pray and to beseech God in fasting for the remission of their former sins, while we pray and fast with them. Then they are led by us to a place where there is water; and there they are reborn in the same kind of rebirth in which we ourselves were reborn: in the name of God, the Lord and Father of all, and of our Savior, Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they receive the washing with water. For Christ said, ‘Unless you be reborn, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [Jn. 3:3] . . . The reason for doing this, we have learned from the Apostles. Since we had no awareness of our first birth, but were compelled to be born of the moist seed through the mutual union of our parents, and were raised in bad habits and in evil training, and so that we might not remain as children of necessity and ignorance, but rather of deliberate choice and knowledge, and in order to obtain in the water the remission of past sins, there is invoked over him who wishes to be reborn and who has repented of his sins, the name of God, the Father and Master of all . . . This washing is called illumination, because it enlightens the intelligence of those who learn these things. Furthermore, the one being illuminated is washed also in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and in the name of the Holy Spirit, who predicted through the prophets everything concerning Jesus” (First Apology [148-155 AD]).

1. St. Irenaeus:

“‘And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan’ [2 Kgs. 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication for us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’” [Jn. 3:5] (Fragment 34 [190 AD]).

1. St. Theophilus of Antioch:

“Moreover, those things which were created from the waters were blessed by God, so that this might also be a sign that men would at a future time receive repentance and remission of sins through water and the bath of regeneration [Titus 3:5] – all who proceed to the truth are born again and receive a blessing from God” (To Autolycus [ca. 181 AD]).

1. Tertullian:

“[N]o one can attain salvation without baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says, ‘Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life’” [Jn. 3:5] (Baptism [203 AD]).

1. St. Hippolytus of Rome:

“[Following baptism] the bishop, imposing his hand on them [during the sacrament of confirmation], shall make an invocation, saying: ‘O Lord God, who made them worthy of the remission of sins through the Holy Spirit’s washing unto rebirth, send into them your grace so that they may serve you according to your will: for there is glory to you, to the Father and the Son with the Holy Spirit, in the holy Church, both now and through the ages of ages. Amen’” (The Apostolic Tradition [ca. 215 AD]).

1. Origen:

“Formerly there was Baptism, in an obscure way, in the cloud and in the sea; now however, in full view, there is regeneration in water and in the Holy Spirit” (Homilies on Numbers [post 244 AD]).

1. St. Cyprian of Carthage:

“[When] they receive also the baptism of the Church . . . then finally can they be fully sanctified and be the sons of God . . . since it is written, ‘Except a man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God’” [Jn. 3:5] (Letters 71[72]:1 [253 AD]).

1. Aphraates the Persian Sage:

“For from Baptism we receive the Spirit of Christ. At that same moment in which the priests invoke the Spirit, heaven opens, and He descends and rests upon the waters; and those who are baptized are clothed in Him. For the Spirit is absent from all those who are born of the flesh, until they come to the water of rebirth; and then they receive the Holy Spirit” (Treatises [inter 336-345 AD]).

1. St. Cyril of Jerusalem:

“Since man is of a twofold nature, composed of body and soul, the purification also is twofold: the corporeal for the corporeal and the incorporeal for the incorporeal. The water cleanses the body, and the Spirit seals the soul. Thus, having our heart sprinkled by the Spirit and our body washed with pure water [Heb 10:22], we may draw near to God. When you go down into the water, then, regard not simply the water, but look for salvation through the power of the Holy Spirit. For without both you cannot attain to perfection. It is not I who say this, but the Lord Jesus Christ, who has the power in this matter. And He says, ‘Unless a man be born again’ – and He adds the words ‘of water and of the Spirit – he cannot enter into the kingdom of God’” [Jn. 3:5] (Catechetical Lectures [ca. 350 AD]).

continued…

 

[Ignatius33]

1. St. Athanasius:

“[A]s we are all from earth and die in Adam, so being regenerated from above of water and Spirit, in the Christ are we quickened” (Four Discourses Against the Arians [360 AD]).

1. St. Basil the Great:

“This then is what it means to be born again of water and Spirit [Jn. 3:5]: just as our dying is effected in the water, our living is wrought through the Spirit. In three immersions and in an equal number of invocations the great mystery of baptism is completed in such a way that the type of death may be shown figuratively, and that by the handing on of divine knowledge the souls of the baptized may be illuminated. If, therefore, there is any grace in the water, it is not from the nature of water but from the Spirit’s presence there” (The Holy Spirit [375 AD]).

1. St. Gregory of Nyssa:

“[In] the birth by water and the Spirit, [Jesus] himself led the way in this birth, drawing down upon the water, by his own baptism, the Holy Spirit; so that in all things he became the firstborn of those who are spiritually born again, and gave the name of brethren to those who partook in a birth like to his own by water and the Spirit” (Against Eunomius [382 AD]).

1. St. Gregory Nazianzen:

“Such is the grace and power of baptism; not an overwhelming of the world as of old, but a purification of the sins of each individual, and a complete cleansing from all the bruises and stains of sin. And since we are double-made, I mean of body and soul, and the one part is visible, the other invisible, so the cleansing also is twofold, by water and the Spirit; the one received visibly in the body, the other concurring with it invisibly and apart from the body; the one typical, the other real and cleansing the depths” (Oration on Holy Baptism [388 AD]).

1. St. Ambrose:

“The Church was redeemed at the price of Christ’s blood. Jew or Greek, it makes no difference; but if he has believed, he must circumcise himself from his sins [in baptism (Col. 2:11-12)] so that he can be saved . . . for no one ascends into the kingdom of heaven except through the sacrament of baptism . . . ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God’” [Jn. 3:5] (Abraham [387 AD]).

1. St. John Chrysostom:

“[N]o one can enter into the kingdom of heaven except he be regenerated through water and the Spirit [Jn. 3:5] . . . These [priests] truly are they who are entrusted with the pangs of the spiritual travail and the birth which comes through baptism: by their means we put on Christ, and are buried with the Son of God, and become members of that blessed head [the Mystical Body of Christ]” (The Priesthood [387 AD]).

1. St. Augustine:

“It is this one Spirit who makes it possible for an infant to be regenerated . . . when that infant is brought to baptism; and it is through this one Spirit that the infant so presented is reborn. For it is not written, ‘Unless a man be born again by the will of his parents’ or ‘by the faith of those presenting him or ministering to him,’ but, ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit’ [Jn. 3:5]. The water, therefore, manifesting exteriorly the sacrament of grace, and the Spirit effecting interiorly the benefit of grace, both regenerate in one Christ that man who was generated in Adam” (Letters 98:2 [412 AD]).

1. St. Thomas Aquinas:

“Our Lord said (Jn. 3:5): ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter the kingdom of God’ . . . By Divine institution water is the proper matter of Baptism; and with reason. First, by reason of the very nature of Baptism, which is regeneration unto spiritual life” (Summa Theologica III, Q.66, Art. 3 [1265-1274 AD]).

“Hence it is clear that by Baptism man dies unto the oldness of sin, and begins to live unto the newness of grace. But every sin belongs to the primitive oldness. Consequently every sin is taken away by Baptism” (id. III, Q.69, Art. 1).

It is worth pointing out that the Catholic Church does not regard Baptism as a magic formula; it does not mean that a person is instantaneously saved forever. Baptism incorporates the individual into the Body of Christ, and within the whole life of the Church an individual’s Baptism must be accompanied by faith. It is also notable that the Church recognizes two other forms of Baptism: a “Baptism by blood” and a “Baptism by desire.” Baptism by blood refers to the Baptism that takes place when an unbaptized believer is martyred for the Faith. Baptism by desire refers to those individuals with faith in Christ who would be baptized if they had the opportunity and truly understood what Baptism means, but lacked the opportunity or explicit knowledge of its necessity (whether through ignorance or erroneous teaching – e.g., the good thief on the cross [Lk. 23:43], whose salvation is a nice reminder that, although Jesus left us the Sacraments, He is not bound by them). Baptism by desire also leaves the door open for individuals who have never had the opportunity to hear the Gospel to yet be saved through Jesus.

 

[Ignatius33]

II) INFANT BAPTISM

As an initial matter, both sides would concede that the Bible is not crystal clear on this point – it does not explicitly state that infants can be baptized nor does it explicitly state that they cannot be baptized. Yet, the Catholic believes that the Bible strongly supports infant baptism. First, Catholics believe that the Bible firmly teaches the reality of original sin, i.e., the idea that Adam’s sin effected a permanent change in mankind’s relationship with God and that, as a result, all are born in a fallen state and need a Savior to redeem us (see 1 Cor. 15:21-22; Rom. 5:12-21; Eph. 2:3) (with one exception: Catholics believe that God accorded Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant who did not merely bear witness to the Word but literally bore the Word in her womb, a special grace, saving her at the outset of her life rather than later, by preserving her from the stain of original sin). Therefore, although an infant does not have any actual sins of his own, he is nevertheless born into the state of original sin, i.e., separation from God. Second, as detailed above, Catholics believe that Baptism is the initial gateway to the Christian life, freeing us from the bond of all sin (original, in the case of infants; original and actual, in the case of adults). Third, Christ’s law applies to all, infants and adults, and Jesus said that one must be born of water and the Spirit to enter heaven (John 3:5). Jesus repeatedly said: “Let the children come to me and do not prevent them; for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these” (Lk. 18:16; see also Matt. 19:14; Mk. 10:14). Fourth, Paul observed that Baptism has replaced circumcision (Col. 2:11-12). Inasmuch as circumcision was ordinarily administered to infants as a means of initiation into the Old Covenant, it is odd that Paul would make this parallel if he meant to exclude infants from initiation into the New Covenant. Indeed, since most of the first Christians were Jews, one would think that the Bible would make a point of prohibiting infant baptism if it was, in fact, wasted on them. On this point, if the early Church was called upon to determine whether circumcision was necessary for salvation (Acts 15), how much more likely would the early Church have been called upon to act if people had been denying infant baptism?

And finally, although the Bible does not explicitly reference infant baptism, this is not surprising since there were no “cradle Christians” yet. Nevertheless, a number of passages imply that children were in fact baptized (Acts 16:15 “She was baptized, with all her household”]; Acts 16:33 [stating that the jailor “was baptized then and there with all his household”]; 1 Cor. 1:16 [Paul observes that he “did baptize the family of Stephanas too”]). Relatedly, although most Evangelicals believe that infants go to heaven, they do not adequately explain how these infants are justified or restored to right relationship with God. Obviously, they have no saving faith of their own. Nor am I aware of any Bible passages explicitly dealing with the salvation of infants. The Catholic answer is simple: Baptism. This is not to say that the Church teaches that unbaptized children are destined for hell or a peaceful limbo. Rather, the Catechism of the Catholic Church observes that “the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: ‘Let the children come to me, do not hinder them’ [Mk. 10:14], allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism” (CCC 1261). Some speculate that the Baptism by desire may come into play here as well, in that the members of the Church, Christ’s Body, corporeally desire salvation for the infant.

I’ll end with some quotations of the Church Fathers demonstrating that infant baptism is an ancient and legitimate (and apostolic) Christian practice.

1. St. Irenaeus clearly endorsed the practice:

“He came to save all through Himself – all, I say, who through Him are reborn in God – infants, and children, and youths and old men” (Against Heresies [ca. 180 AD]).

1. Origen:

“The Church received from the Apostles the tradition of giving Baptism even to infants. For the Apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of the divine mysteries, knew that there is in everyone the innate stains of sin *, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit” (Commentaries on Romans [post 244 AD]).

1. Similarly, in a letter unanimously subscribed to by a council of 66 bishops, St. Cyprian of Carthage stated:

“As to what pertains to the case of infants: you said that they ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after their birth, and that the old law of circumcision must be taken into consideration, and that you did not think that one should be baptized and sanctified within the eighth day after his birth. In our council it seemed to us far otherwise. No one agreed to the course which you thought should be taken. Rather, we all judged that the mercy and grace of God ought to be denied to no man born . . . Spiritual circumcision ought not to be hindered by carnal circumcision . . . we ought to shrink from hindering an infant, who, being lately born, has not sinned, except in that, being born after the flesh according to Adam, he has contracted the contagion of the ancient death *” (Letter of Cyprian and of His Colleagues in Council: To Fidus [251/252 AD]).

continued…**

 

[Ignatius33]

1. St. Gregory Nazianzen:

“Do you have an infant child? Allow sin no opportunity; rather, let the infant be sanctified * from childhood. From his most tender age let him be consecrated by the Spirit. Do you fear the seal because of the weakness of nature? O what a pusillanimous mother, and of how little faith! . . . Give your child the Trinity, that great and noble Protector.” He further explained: “‘Well enough,’ some will say, ‘for those who ask for Baptism; but what do you have to say about those who are still children, and aware neither of loss nor of grace? Shall we baptize them too?’ Certainly, if there is any pressing danger. Better that they be sanctified unaware, than depart unsealed and uninitiated” (Oration on Holy Baptism [381 AD]).

1. St. John Chrysostom:

“Behold, they thoroughly enjoy the peacefulness of freedom who shortly before were held captive. They are citizens of the Church who were wandering in error. They have their lot in righteousness who were in the confusion of sin. For not only are they free, but holy also; not only holy, but righteous too; not only righteous, but sons also; not only sons, but heirs as well; not only heirs, but brothers even of Christ; not only brothers of Christ, but also co-heirs; not only co-heirs, but His very members; not only His members, but a temple too; not a temple only, but likewise the instruments of the Spirit. You see how many are the benefits of Baptism, and some think its heavenly grace consists only in the remission of sins; but we have enumerated ten honors. For this reason we baptize even infants, though they do not have sins [of their own]: so that there may be given to them holiness, righteousness, adoption, inheritance, brotherhood with Christ, and that they may be His members” (Baptismal Catecheses [ca. 388-389 AD]).

1. St. Ambrose:

“‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God’ [Jn. 3:5]. No one is excepted: not the infant, not the one prevented by some necessity. They may, however, have an undisclosed exemption from punishments *; but I do not know whether they can have the honor of the kingdom” (Abraham [387 AD]).

1. St. Augustine, who greatly furthered the Church’s understanding of the stain of original sin and its consequences, had this to say:

“The custom of Mother Church in baptizing infants is certainly not to be scorned, nor is it to be regarded in any way as superfluous, nor is it to be believed that its tradition is anything except Apostolic. The age of infancy also has a great weight of witness; for it was the infant age that fist merited to pour out its blood for Christ” [Matt. 2:16] (The Literal Interpretation of Genesis [inter 401-415 AD]).

1. St. Thomas Aquinas:

“Now children contract original sin from the sin of Adam; which is made clear by the fact that they are under the ban of death, which passed upon all on account of the sin of the first man, as the Apostle says in the same passage [Rom. 5:12]. Much more, therefore, can children receive grace through Christ, so as to reign in eternal life. But our Lord Himself said (John 3:5): ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.’ Consequently it became necessary to baptize children, that, as in birth they incurred damnation through Adam, so in a second birth they might obtain salvation through Christ” (Summa Theologica, III, Q. 68, Art. 9 [1265-1274 AD]).

I’ve never seen an early Christian author deny the efficacy of infant baptism. The only author who speaks of it unfavorably is Tertullian, who rebelled against accepted practices in North Africa:

“According to circumstance and disposition and even age of the individual person, it may be better to delay Baptism; and especially so in the case of little children. Why, indeed, is it necessary – if it be not a case of necessity – that the sponsors too be thrust into danger, when they themselves may fail to fulfill their promises by reason of death, or when they may be disappointed by the grown of an evil disposition? Indeed, the Lord says, ‘Do not forbid them to come to me’” [Mt. 10:14; Lk. 18:16] (Baptism [200/206 AD]).

But even Tertullian writes only that it “may” be better to delay Baptism; nowhere does he assert that infants “cannot” be baptized. Moreover, he mentions a child’s “sponsors,” indicating that the practice of infant baptism was already long-established inasmuch as these kinds of ceremonial developments don’t happen overnight. Finally, he also allows that infants should be baptized in “cases of necessity” – presumably referring to instances in which their lives were in danger due to sickness. This is not surprising given that Tertullian said that baptism is necessary for salvation, as described above.

In short, if the Apostles truly were opposed to infant baptism, as many modern Evangelicals assume, it seems odd that no early Christian writings confirm this position or rebuke the Catholic one (shared by all non-Protestant Christians).

Hope this helps. **

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Does he have a problem with:

1 Peter 3:21 even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Specifically puts away the notion of water baptism; that’s why the HS went out of the way to say not the kind that washes away “dirt”; this is HS batism where the immersion into Christ takes place just as God sealed the Ark, which protected the faithful and identified them with God. The water in this verse is the “judgment” of God on the whole earth.

Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. (let me guess, the 2nd half of the verse means baptism was not mentioned in the 1st half?)

This verse is to put emphasis on the HS (many say they believe, but the one who says and receives the HS immersion is the true believer, the second part needs not to mention it since it is obvious a non-believer will not receive the HS.

You can also consult other Scripture and Tradition. Beyond that you can only lead a horse to water but you can’t always make it drink. Do your best to answer his questions and if you feel it’s not going anywhere you should consider letting go for a while—don’t forget praying and penance for him can also help! God has to move him, after all.

The bottom line is water does nothing toward salvation, it will get you wet and can remove dirt from the flesh. Other than that it is a command from the Lord, therefore should be done as we as believers identify ourselves with the Lord in his death, burial & resurrection.

I know you are not taught that nor believe that, but that is consistent with Scripture and I’ll just leave it for you to investigate on your own. i can point to the water, but as mentioned above can’t make you go and even look at it much less make you drink it. Jesus did say, “whoever drinks the water I shall give him will never thirst”.

 

[neophyte]

…I know you are not taught that nor believe that, but that is consistent with Scripture and I’ll just leave it for you to investigate on your own…

That’s a very interesting opinion, but the Holy Spirit speaking in scripture has told me that you are incorrect.

I have investigated it, but not on my own, because I do not lean on my own understanding. I can see how if I did it on my own I’d come to an erroneous conclusion as you have.

 

[CentralFLJames]

…
The bottom line is water does nothing toward salvation, it will get you wet and can remove dirt from the flesh. Other than that it is a command from the Lord, therefore should be done as we as believers identify ourselves with the Lord in his death, burial & resurrection.

I know you are not taught that nor believe that, but that is consistent with Scripture and I’ll just leave it for you to investigate on your own. i can point to the water, but as mentioned above can’t make you go and even look at it much less make you drink it. Jesus did say, “whoever drinks the water I shall give him will never thirst”.

The BOTTOM line is your theology is SUNK as deep as person who ties a millstone around his head with his own teachings and tries to walk on water. You sir are EXACTLY what the apostle Paul spoke of and warned when he said in Galatians 1:9 "As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed! You are preaching a COMPLETELY new Gospel never before handed down to us by the apostles. At NO time in history has The Church EVER taught YOUR private interpretation.

Where do you people get this stuff? It’s not in the bible and its not in the apostolic teachings.

Pax,
James

 

[Timothy_Piper]

That’s a very interesting opinion, but the Holy Spirit speaking in scripture has told me that you are incorrect.

I have investigated it, but not on my own, because I do not lean on my own understanding. I can see how if I did it on my own I’d come to an erroneous conclusion as you have.

How do you call the Word of God opinion? I show you what it says by presenting before you the Word of God and your rebuke is…, but the HS speaking in Scripture told you…I’ve investigated, but not on my own, because …

How about presenting an argument that has some type of foundation. Thank you for the blessing and I pray He will bless you likewise.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

The BOTTOM line is your theology is SUNK as deep as person who ties a millstone around his head with his own teachings and tries to walk on water. You sir are EXACTLY what the apostle Paul spoke of and warned when he said in Galatians 1:9 "As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed! You are preaching a COMPLETELY new Gospel never before handed down to us by the apostles. At NO time in history has The Church EVER taught YOUR private interpretation.

Where do you people get this stuff? It’s not in the bible and its not in the apostolic teachings.

Pax,
James

Thank for for the multiple blessing and I pray God will bless you one day in like manner

I presented a well laid out Biblical based, using Scripture as proof, and you just pointed multiple fingers.

Let me ask you to explain away the following passages that Peter gave us:
Acts 10
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

When does one become a Christian? When they believe by faith, then are sealed immediately by the HS? Are they Christians here or not?

Acts 11:13-18
And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter; 14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved. 15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. 16 **Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. **17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? 18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath ***God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life. ***

Are these people Christians? Is there a single drop of water anywhere? Where is it; was it left out by accident?

What is verse 16 above referring to?
John 1
31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. 32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. **33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. **34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

"I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

“AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”

"that if you confess with your mouth Jesus {as} Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; "

“For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but ***to us who are being saved it is the power of God.” ***

I leave you with a final thought on true salvation apart from drops of water as God has proclaimed.

**Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. **

 

[Randy_Carson]

Laura Jean-

Many (though not all) have provided solid information. Here is my contribution:

The Sacrament of Baptism

Many people believe that baptism is merely a symbolic act that one performs before the community of believers as an outward sign of an inward decision to accept Christ as one’s “personal Lord and Savior”. Is this view biblical or does God view baptism differently? Let’s see what the Bible has to say.

Baptism Commanded by Jesus

John 3:5
5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.”

Some argue that in this verse, “born of water” refers to the placenta fluid of physical birth. However, there is no scriptural basis for this interpretation. Instead, as the references from Ezekiel and the New Testament passages make clear, the “water” connected with the Holy Spirit is the water of the sacrament of baptism – not that of physical birth. Jesus’ words, understood properly, tell us that unless one is “born of baptism and the Spirit” he cannot enter the kingdom of God. This point is underscored by the fact that Jesus and the disciples went out to baptize immediately following this verse.

Titus 3:5
He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit

Rebirth? As in “born again”? Renewal by the Holy Spirit? Isn’t that regeneration?

Matthew 28:19
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

In this passage containing the very last instructions Jesus gave His disciples, we see how important baptism was to Him. He did not say, “Go and make disciples of all nations, teaching them to accept me as their personal Lord and Savior and baptizing them as an outward symbol of this inward acceptance…”

Baptism Saves

Mark 16:16
16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Romans 6:3-4
Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

1 Peter 3:18-22
18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19 through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

Baptism Washes Away Sin

Acts 2:38-39
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

At Pentecost, Peter told the crowd to “be baptized…for the forgiveness of…sins.” After that, “you will receive…the Holy Spirit”. Once again, we see the elements of Water and Spirit…just as Ezekiel prophesied. Note too, that this promise is for “you and your children” – a clear endorsement of infant baptism.

Acts 22:16
16 And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.

Baptism Makes Us Part of the Body of Christ

1 Corinthians 12:13
13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

Galatians 3:26-27
26 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

Colossians 2:11-12
11 In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

(cont.)

 

[Randy_Carson]

Baptism is Related to Impartation of the Holy Spirit

Ezekiel 36:25-27
25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

In this Old Testament passage, the prophet clearly speaks of the sacrament of baptism that was to come. Notice the elements: water is sprinkled, the person is actually made clean (not merely imputed to be or called clean), and they receive a new spirit along with the gift of the Holy Spirit. Ezekiel makes a connection between washing in Water and the receipt of the Spirit of God.

However, sometimes when the Old Testament is referenced, people will say, “Well, we follow the New Testament.” in an attempt to dismiss an Old Testament passage. They need to remember the following words from the New Testament:

2 Timothy 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Consequently, we can see that all of the Bible must be taken into account when we seek to understand doctrine.

From these passages, we can see that baptism is commanded by Jesus, that baptism saves us, that baptism washes away sin, that baptism makes us part of the body of Christ, and that water baptism is connected very closely with the receipt of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, baptism can hardly be viewed as a merely symbolic act.