Baptism confusion

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Hebrews 9
15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were {committed} under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. 16 For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it. 17 For a covenant is valid {only} when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives.

You may want to look at the entire chapter; the death of animals I would call a temporary forgiveness, but not a true atonement which came form the one true sacrifice, which is Jesus Christ.

If you are really interested in more, then I would suggest chapters 7, 8 & 9. This is why their is no more sacrifice of any kind nor any reason for a levitical type of priesthood; it was all done away with in the New Covenant through the blood sacrifice of Jesus.
sure I will read up on it more - thanks

dont get me wrong of course I understand that the OT sacrafices are superseded by the one sacrafice made by jesus.

I dont agree with you about lack of need for any ministerial priesthood though.
for me just as there was a general and a ministerial priesthood in the OT (Ex19:6 & Ex30:30) this is reflected in the NT (1Pet2:9 & Rom15:15-16 & Acts 20:28, jn 13:8). but thats a different thread.
 
Here are a few versus to help discern the truth of God concerning water baptism and it effects upon salvation.

(…skipped for brevity…)
Hope this help in discerning the effects of water on salvation.
Ah this takes me back to my foray into the Protestant “world”. I was assured that leaving Catholicism was the best thing I could do, that EVERYTHING I needed to know was clear as crystal in Scripture, etc… However this is one of those simple questions that no one would/could answer, what is Baptism? Are there literally three baptisms, water, spirit and fire? I was thrown some scripture and if I didn’t “get it” then I was labeled a “bloomin’ idiot” and yes that’s a direct quote! 🙂
 
sure I will read up on it more - thanks

dont get me wrong of course I understand that the OT sacrafices are superseded by the one sacrafice made by jesus.

I dont agree with you about lack of need for any ministerial priesthood though.
for me just as there was a general and a ministerial priesthood in the OT (Ex19:6 & Ex30:30) this is reflected in the NT (1Pet2:9 & Rom15:15-16 & Acts 20:28, jn 13:8). but thats a different thread.
I appreciate the honesty, but perhaps as you read, you will understand why there is no “ministerial priesthood” like that of some churches. Plus you won’t find the word “priest” except in reference to Jesus as high priest, one time used by Paul, but not in the Catholic understanding; otherwise it is used in regard to the shadow priesthood of the OT.
 
Ah this takes me back to my foray into the Protestant “world”. I was assured that leaving Catholicism was the best thing I could do, that EVERYTHING I needed to know was clear as crystal in Scripture, etc… However this is one of those simple questions that no one would/could answer, what is Baptism? Are there literally three baptisms, water, spirit and fire? I was thrown some scripture and if I didn’t “get it” then I was labeled a “bloomin’ idiot” and yes that’s a direct quote! 🙂
That is a shame that some one who would associate themselves as a Christian would call you names like that; given the context that you searching for answers.

Baptism means “immersion” or “to be immersed”. You are either immersed into Christ via the Holy Spirit (saved) or immersed into water (outward identification with Christ death, burial and resurrection) or immersed into fire (ouch).

There is another baptism and perhaps even a fifth, but Jesus immersion was unique and one time for Him, never to be repeated in any manner. I don’t want to bring up the fifth because it gets very complex and has no effect on salvation or lack of salvation.

I’m impressed you are familiar with the fact that there are at least 3 mentioned and all appear in a single statement by john the Baptist. 👍
 
That is a shame that some one who would associate themselves as a Christian would call you names like that; given the context that you searching for answers.

Baptism means “immersion” or “to be immersed”. You are either immersed into Christ via the Holy Spirit (saved) or immersed into water (outward identification with Christ death, burial and resurrection) or immersed into fire (ouch).

There is another baptism and perhaps even a fifth, but Jesus immersion was unique and one time for Him, never to be repeated in any manner. I don’t want to bring up the fifth because it gets very complex and has no effect on salvation or lack of salvation.

I’m impressed you are familiar with the fact that there are at least 3 mentioned and all appear in a single statement by john the Baptist. 👍
Please, go ahead and explain. I can handle complexity
 
Please, go ahead and explain. I can handle complexity
I am not dogmatic because it is something I see in Scripture, but not something I have pursued with God in completely understanding. In other words, I may be wrong; I don’t think I am, but I may be. It makes sense, but human logic and reasoning is often apart from God’s wisdom and knowledge. This is why we must always pray and seek His wisdom and His understanding.

This deals strictly with water baptism. John the Baptist’s was a water baptism of repentance for the preparation of the hearts of those who came out to him. As you recall, John purpose in life was to prepare the way for people to receive the Christ. As John the Baptist’s ministry reached it high point, which is the Baptism of Jesus, then we begin to witness the transition from the OT covenants into the New Covenant, which is fulfilled on the cross at Calvary.

Therefore, John the Baptist’s water baptism is different than the Protestant Water Baptism, which is the person who is giving a material example of the spiritual identification with Christ, we are dying with Christ, buried with Christ, and resurrected to Newness of life in Christ. This is known as the “Believers Baptism”, which is done out of obedience to the Lord who commanded we all be water baptized and it identifies us with Him publicly.

This is totally distinct from the water baptism that John the Baptist performed; therefore I conclude there are two “water Baptisms” described in the NT.
  1. Jesus unique baptism
  2. Baptism by the HS
  3. Baptism by fire
  4. Baptism by water for repentance (john the Baptist)
  5. Baptism by water; obedience as a command and identification of the believer to Christ in His death, burial and resurrection.
 
in your opinion what is the meaning and significance of baptism of the spirit and baptism by fire.
 
in your opinion what is the meaning and significance of baptism of the spirit and baptism by fire.
I have been benched by another forum members advise, so I will be leaving a short while.
The true baptism that is the saving baptism is that by the HS. Without the HS you are not a Christian & cannot understand the Word of God.

1 Co. 2 Even so the {thoughts} of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, 13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual {thoughts} with spiritual {words.} 14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God,

Ephesians 1: 13-14 Therefore; “In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation–having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance”

The word pledge is what we would use today as receiving “earnest money”, with God’s promise of receiving what is promised in full, which is eternal life in Christ.

Baptism of fire; that I want to know more about myself, so when you see me around again, then remind me and we can find out together. I think is it judgment, but I have not looked closely enough. But putting immersion into something like fire doesn’t sound too good on the surface, but then it might be a blessing…can’t wait to learn more…so please remind me when you see me back in a few days.
**
Thanks and Merry Christmas to everyone and God bless all of you! :)**
 
If baptism by water AND the spirit is necessary for salvation (and I have read the passages that say that this is so), then what of the criminal crucified with Christ, who saw paradise that day…and who presumably wasn’t baptised (though he may have been)?
 
If baptism by water AND the spirit is necessary for salvation (and I have read the passages that say that this is so), then what of the criminal crucified with Christ, who saw paradise that day…and who presumably wasn’t baptised (though he may have been)?
St. Dismus (the good thief) is our first Catholic Saint. This is a transition period between OT and NT covenant. Christ had not yet risen so it is not entirely clear theologically speaking if the baptismal aspect of the NT covenant were in place for him. There were many pre-Chrisian just souls of course who were waiting for heaven to be opened by Christ in the place we call the “Bosom of Abraham” from OT literature. This is the place we generally believe is called “paradise” - it is not the same place as heaven and being in beatitude with God. But hold that thought one moment. There is also a teaching of “baptism by desire” where the Good Thief most definately put his faith in Christ and so we assume that God Himself through the will of His Son Baptised St. Dismus supernaturally (God is not limited to the sacraments and may do as He wills). This is the same principal that permits us to take comfort that souls who have never had the occasion for baptism due to repression or cultural problems but nonetheless came into a desire to conform to Christian principals could be baptised by desire.

Anyway, after Christ descended to the dead (the Bosom of Abraham) during his three days of bodily death Jesus taught them and when He rose again on the third day he then fulfilled the requirements for again opening heaven to humanity. These souls including the good thief were the first into heaven.

In this way the statement “this day you will be with me in paradise” mean that the good thief would escape hell and be brought into the paradise of “Abraham’s Bosom”. But he entered actual heaven a short time later.

Hope this helps,
James
 
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