Baptism for the dead - Catholics believed it ?

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We need to make some distinctions here.

The conditional offering of sacraments is not the same as the LDS baptism for the dead, or what LDS apologists are using as “similarities” in traditional Christianity to their practice. If a priest or deacon offers a sacrament to someone in the situations described above, it is because they are not sure that the person is actually dead. The point of baptism for the dead is to offer the ordinance to those who are DEAD. Sacraments are only for the living, and if a priest offers a sacrament in the above situations, it is because he thinks the person may still be alive, or more correctly, he doesn’t know that the person is “fully” dead.
 
Religio71 said:
We need to make some distinctions here.

The conditional offering of sacraments is not the same as the LDS baptism for the dead, or what LDS apologists are using as “similarities” in traditional Christianity to their practice. If a priest or deacon offers a sacrament to someone in the situations described above, it is because they are not sure that the person is actually dead. The point of baptism for the dead is to offer the ordinance to those who are DEAD. Sacraments are only for the living, and if a priest offers a sacrament in the above situations, it is because he thinks the person may still be alive, or more correctly, he doesn’t know that the person is “fully” dead.
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Absolutely correct.
 
Prince_Hal said:
Today’s sunday School lesson at my wife’s LDS (Mormon) church was on baptism for the dead - 1 Corinthians 15:29.

God bless,

Hal.
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And you are referring to this verse from the king james:

29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

The Douray version is even more explicit:

Otherwise, what shall they do that are baptised for the dead, if the dead rise not again at all? Why are they then baptised for them?

That seems pretty clear to me. How are we supposed to interpret the Douray version?
 
Prince_Hal said:
Today’s sunday School lesson at my wife’s LDS (Mormon) church was on baptism for the dead - 1 Corinthians 15:29.

To cut a very long and boring story short, at the end of the meeting one of the LDS High Priests came up to me and started ranting against the Catholics. He has no idea that I want to be Catholic. Anyway, I was polite and listened to him. Then he said that Catholics believed in baptisms for the dead until about 340AD. I asked him to give me a reference as to where his information came from. The internet of course was his reply.

Anyway, I assured him that he was incorrect, that the orthodox Catholic church never did. Perhaps heretic groups did, but he assured me that it was the orthodox church did (i.e. mainstream, not the Eastern church).

So, my question is this: is anyone aware of evidence or writings that shows where he might be getting his erroneous belief from. Was there a heretic group that believe such ?

God bless,

Hal.
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He may have been doing what Catholics in here do; confusing the early church (between the year 30AD and about 300 AD or less) with Catholicism.

I have no reason to believe that Catholics ever believed in, or practiced, baptism on behalf of the dead.
 
why_me said:
And you are referring to this verse from the king james:

29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

The Douray version is even more explicit:

Otherwise, what shall they do that are baptised for the dead, if the dead rise not again at all? Why are they then baptised for them?

That seems pretty clear to me. How are we supposed to interpret the Douray version?
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Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal, Have mercy on us. :rolleyes:
 
dianaiad said:
He may have been doing what Catholics in here do; **confusing the early church (between the year 30AD and about 300 AD or less) with Catholicism. **

I have no reason to believe that Catholics ever believed in, or practiced, baptism on behalf of the dead.
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OH diana, it’s only because I like you 😉
 
dianaiad said:
He may have been doing what Catholics in here do; confusing the early church (between the year 30AD and about 300 AD or less) with Catholicism.

I have no reason to believe that Catholics ever believed in, or practiced, baptism on behalf of the dead.
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The Douray version is very explicit as I noted above. How to interpret the douray version if one is a catholic?

Otherwise, what shall they do that are baptised for the dead, if the dead rise not again at all? Why are they then baptised for them?
 
why_me said:
The Douray version is very explicit as I noted above. How to interpret the douray version if one is a catholic?

Otherwise, what shall** they** do that are baptised for the dead, if the dead rise not again at all? Why are they then baptised for them?
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Prince Hal:

There is an article in which you might be interested. As to its source, it is indeed written by a Mormon scholar and has been "reprinted’ on the web by BYU. However, I think you will find that it is serious work of historical scholarship. Perhaps you will find an answer to your question in this article. The article is by Hugh Nibley and is titled “Baptism for the Dead in Ancient Times.” I am sure you could find it with Google but I believe the URL is: mi.byu.edu/publications/transcripts/?id=67

Murdock
 
Religio71 said:
Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal, Have mercy on us. :rolleyes:
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It does seem like the protestants watered it down a bit. The Douray version is very clear. But as you know, I am not a doctrine person…how to interpret it?
 
dianaiad said:
It’s my birthday. I get to get away with murder. (figuratively and rhetorically speaking, of course!!!)
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Happy Birthday!! 😃

It’s funny how we can’t get away from this forum on our birthdays (I did the same).
 
Religio71 said:
catholic.com/library/Mormonism_Baptism_for_the_Dead.asp
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Thanks for the link. I think that the point that needs to be made is that that one verse in the bible is open to interpretation. The catholics claim one interpretation and the mormons another. It is unfortunate that the verse is vague. Much could have been avoided with more precise information.

One thing about the link: many baptisms are performed by the youth and they don’t need a temple recommend to do so, I believe. My daughter has done many baptisms for the dead and she doesn’t have a temple recommend to my knowledge.
 
Monsignor Michael Hull, a Catholic priest, professor of Sacred Scripture at St. Joseph’s Seminary and studied at the Pontifical Gregorian University, wrote a book/dissertation on this subject called “Baptism on Account of the Dead (1 Cor 15:29): An Act of Faith in the Resurrection”. I haven’t read it (it’s over $100 on Amazon, but I’ll try to read the preview on Google Books), but it seems like it would be an interesting dissertation on the various views of 1 Cor 15:29.

books.google.com/books?id=IRco1FMoFzAC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_navlinks_s#v=onepage&q=&f=false
amazon.com/Baptism-Account-Dead-Cor-Resurrection/dp/9004137769
 
why_me said:
Thanks for the link. I think that the point that needs to be made is that that one verse in the bible is open to interpretation. The catholics claim one interpretation and the mormons another. It is unfortunate that the verse is vague. Much could have been avoided with more precise information.

One thing about the link: many baptisms are performed by the youth and they don’t need a temple recommend to do so, I believe. My daughter has done many baptisms for the dead and she doesn’t have a temple recommend to my knowledge.
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I gave you the Catholic view.

Youth need a limited use temple recommend to do baptisms.
 
Prince_Hal said:
Today’s sunday School lesson at my wife’s LDS (Mormon) church was on baptism for the dead - 1 Corinthians 15:29.

To cut a very long and boring story short, at the end of the meeting one of the LDS High Priests came up to me and started ranting against the Catholics. He has no idea that I want to be Catholic. Anyway, I was polite and listened to him. Then he said that Catholics believed in baptisms for the dead until about 340AD. I asked him to give me a reference as to where his information came from. The internet of course was his reply.

Anyway, I assured him that he was incorrect, that the orthodox Catholic church never did. Perhaps heretic groups did, but he assured me that it was the orthodox church did (i.e. mainstream, not the Eastern church).

So, my question is this: is anyone aware of evidence or writings that shows where he might be getting his erroneous belief from. Was there a heretic group that believe such ?

God bless,

Hal.
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It seems to me quite clear that a Catholic, St. Paul the Apostle believed in baptism for the dead, per I Cor. 15:29. Not every baptism In the New Testament is a water baptism, contrary to the LDS assumption. Several hundred years before Joseph Smith came upon the scene to illiustrate the folly of the Protestant Reformation, St. Francis de Sales cites this passage to the Calvinists of Geneva as a proof for purgatory.
 
RebeccaJ said:
I’ve seen one instance where the dead are baptized by an Orthodox church. Literally, a dead body is baptized.

I have never come across anything that shows a belief where a dead soul can be redeemed by a proxy baptism.
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Well the only ones I know of is the Mormon now they have a baptism for the dead but I never heared of Cathloic having a baptism for the dead
 
RoryMcKenzie56 said:
It seems to me quite clear that a Catholic, St. Paul the Apostle believed in baptism for the dead, per I Cor. 15:29. Not every baptism In the New Testament is a water baptism, contrary to the LDS assumption. Several hundred years before Joseph Smith came upon the scene to illiustrate the folly of the Protestant Reformation, St. Francis de Sales cites this passage to the Calvinists of Geneva as a proof for purgatory.
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That is debatable. A common (non-LDS) view of that passage is that St. Paul did not believe in baptism for the dead, but was referencing a practice done by non-Christians, especially when he does not include himself in practicing this, since he does not say “we” but “they”.
 
My cousin had a still born baby, and they baptized the baby even though she was technically dead. Is this maybe what the OP was talking about?
 
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