Baptism for the dead - Catholics believed it ?

[Religio71]

huh. Good point. However, from what Rebecca has said, and what you have said here, there is still, I believe, a difference.

Y’see, I’ve often argued with those who believe that there is no true ‘free will,’ that no matter how constrained the choices in front of you are, there is still a choice one can make. Even the guy in front of the firing squad about to be shot has a choice; no matter how tied up he is, or how blindfolded…no matter that there is nothing at all he can do to avoid dying in the next few seconds, he has a choice; what he thinks about, perhaps. Whether he has his eyes open or shut. Whether he says something, or attempts to…

The example used on me is often something like…a man falls off the cliff; he can’t choose, suddenly, to fly. My answer is–but he can choose to try. From the description Rebecca (and you, come to think of it) have given me of purgatory, even that is denied; the soul there cannot even conceive of another option.

How does that work in your example of the person in the LDS version of ‘spirit prison’ not able to say ‘no’ to being put there? Quite simply…he can indeed say ‘no.’

It just won’t do him any good.

However, saying ‘yes’ while he is there, to the offer of a proxy baptism just might.

Well, I cannot speculate on whether a person can say yes or no to God’s judgment. I think that it doesn’t matter, because God’s judgment is final on the matter, and we don’t really have a choice in our destination after judgment. Heaven is what it is, Purgatory is what it is, and Hell is what it is. So, when one goes to Purgatory for purification, we cannot choose whether we want that or not, because that is what God has chosen for us based on our choices in this life. So sure, maybe a person can say “yes or no” to God’s judgment, I don’t know. It just won’t matter.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Is there a mormon belief that after judgment there is an interview?

Q: You have been judged by your creator to be in a state where you will be with Him for eternity. Is this what you want?

 

[Religio71]

Indeed…we do NOT ‘like’ it, since it does impede the work, and yes, we do understand that the Catholic church has the right to do whatever it likes with its records.

However, it was mentioned that there is an exception for those about whom the records are kept; the relatives. It is my understanding that the Catholics break their own rules in this instance; the records are open to relatives—unless those relatives are Mormon. Is that understanding in error?

I really have no understanding of obtaining sacramental records from a parish or diocese, since I never had the need to. Maybe Rebecca could give some insight. I would assume that an immediate relative (spouse, sibling or child) would be able to access those records in death only (since similar types of records only belong to the person in question). However my earlier question to you is what I was wondering (and maybe you and Rebecca can provide the Catholic and LDS sides if you have more experience with this): what were Mormons doing when they requested the sacramental records? How was it found out that this was what they were doing with such records? I’d assume that they don’t ask for a religion check when a relative of the dead goes to access the records. Then again, would they ask you “why” you need the records? Seems like a valid question.

So, even if relatives are allowed access to sacramental records in certain situations, I do think the parish or diocese has the right to refuse such records if they are to be used in heretical (in our view) ceremonies, or in any situation they see it fit to deny such access.

 

[RebeccaJ]

It wasn’t uniform before the Curia defined no more use by the LDS church. Here in Utah, the policy has always been to only give access to parish records to living relatives or descendants. Obviously, other dioceses have had different policies.

To the idea that LDS are preserving something that isn’t preserved. All bishops have a directive given by Pope Paul VI to maintain a diocesan archive, which includes careful preservation of all written documents.

 

[dianaiad]

Is there a mormon belief that after judgment there is an interview?

Q: You have been judged by your creator to be in a state where you will be with Him for eternity. Is this what you want?

Did not Satan make this choice?

 

[dianaiad]

I really have no understanding of obtaining sacramental records from a parish or diocese, since I never had the need to. Maybe Rebecca could give some insight. I would assume that an immediate relative (spouse, sibling or child) would be able to access those records in death only (since similar types of records only belong to the person in question). However my earlier question to you is what I was wondering (and maybe you and Rebecca can provide the Catholic and LDS sides if you have more experience with this): what were Mormons doing when they requested the sacramental records? How was it found out that this was what they were doing with such records? I’d assume that they don’t ask for a religion check when a relative of the dead goes to access the records. Then again, would they ask you “why” you need the records? Seems like a valid question.

So, even if relatives are allowed access to sacramental records in certain situations, I do think the parish or diocese has the right to refuse such records if they are to be used in heretical (in our view) ceremonies, or in any situation they see it fit to deny such access.

I’ve never asked for them. My father has, however, and I’ll relate an incident that happened to him, several years ago.

The question “why do you want them?” was answered 'genealogical research; I believe that my g-g-g-grandfather had more than one son, and that son converted to Catholicism and so was disinherited. I’d like to find out if there are any birth records here to confirm that."

Which is the absolute truth. My father is a genealogical research nut. He’d be doing it, Temple work or no Temple work, because he is fascinated by family history. The stories he has found about our ancestors are many, varied, and always (OK, not ALWAYS, everybody has a skeleton…) inspiring. It’s FUN to find out that one is a direct descendant of John Adams. It’s frustrating to find that, except for John Adams, one is descended from a great many famous people’s…relatives.

It’s even more fun to find out that Bush Cassidy was a cousin, and that he was responsible for the bullet hole in the secretary/desk in the livingroom.

You know, fun. connections. Knowledge and understanding. Appreciation for roots.

Ok, back to the conversation Dad had with the parish priest. The priest was immediately caught up in the search with Dad, and they had quite a conversation about the time period involved; who did what, who moved where…and then the priest asked Dad how he came to have the information that his five (or six, I forget) times removed g-dad had perhaps done this to a child, and Dad mentioned the genealogy library in SLC.
“Oh,” said the priest 'Are you a Mormon?"
“yes,” said Dad.
“I’m sorry, I can’t help you any further.”

And that was the end of that. If we ever find out about that possible long lost g-uncle, it won’t be the fault of that particular parish priest, and a part of our family history has been denied to us.

I have no idea whether the Catholic church had an official policy against showing records to Mormons at the time of this conversation or not. Even if they did, I have no idea whether the fact that Dad was a direct descendant of the family whose records he was requesting would make a difference.

I’m simply relating what happened.

Oh…by the way, can a religion that the Catholics term ‘not Christian’ BE 'heretical?"

 

[RebeccaJ]

Did not Satan make this choice?

Satan is a fallen angel, not human, who was with God. He fell, ie, chose to leave the presence of God. I have never read where angels are/were judged, let alone asked to accept that judgment.

I don’t know your point…

 

[dianaiad]

Satan is a fallen angel, not human, who was with God. He fell, ie, chose to leave the presence of God. I have never read where angels are/were judged, let alone asked to accept that judgment.

I don’t know your point…

Well, we believe that angels were, and are, human. That is, not a separate species.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Is there a mormon belief that after judgment there is an interview?

Q: You have been judged by your creator to be in a state where you will be with Him for eternity. Is this what you want?

Did not Satan make this choice?

Satan is a fallen angel, not human, who was with God. He fell, ie, chose to leave the presence of God. I have never read where angels are/were judged, let alone asked to accept that judgment.

I don’t know your point…

Well, we believe that angels were, and are, human. That is, not a separate species.

Is there a mormon belief that after judgment there is an interview?

Q: You have been judged by your creator to be in a state where you will be with Him for eternity. Is this what you want?

Further, those judged as going to hell, do they get ask the same question?

 

[dianaiad]

Is there a mormon belief that after judgment there is an interview?

Q: You have been judged by your creator to be in a state where you will be with Him for eternity. Is this what you want?

Y’know, Rebecca, interviews are generally held to discover what one’s opinions already are (that is, what one’s free will has already been used to think or do) not to grant the ability to actually form one.

Therefore the answer to your question, (which is, I have no idea, do you?) is irrelevant.

 

[RebeccaJ]

It is relevant, as you seem to be bothered that God would have the audacity to do something for His creation without asking first.

 

[Religio71]

I’ve never asked for them. My father has, however, and I’ll relate an incident that happened to him, several years ago.

The question “why do you want them?” was answered 'genealogical research; I believe that my g-g-g-grandfather had more than one son, and that son converted to Catholicism and so was disinherited. I’d like to find out if there are any birth records here to confirm that."

Which is the absolute truth. My father is a genealogical research nut. He’d be doing it, Temple work or no Temple work, because he is fascinated by family history. The stories he has found about our ancestors are many, varied, and always (OK, not ALWAYS, everybody has a skeleton…) inspiring. It’s FUN to find out that one is a direct descendant of John Adams. It’s frustrating to find that, except for John Adams, one is descended from a great many famous people’s…relatives.

It’s even more fun to find out that Bush Cassidy was a cousin, and that he was responsible for the bullet hole in the secretary/desk in the livingroom.

You know, fun. connections. Knowledge and understanding. Appreciation for roots.

Ok, back to the conversation Dad had with the parish priest. The priest was immediately caught up in the search with Dad, and they had quite a conversation about the time period involved; who did what, who moved where…and then the priest asked Dad how he came to have the information that his five (or six, I forget) times removed g-dad had perhaps done this to a child, and Dad mentioned the genealogy library in SLC.
“Oh,” said the priest 'Are you a Mormon?"
“yes,” said Dad.
“I’m sorry, I can’t help you any further.”

And that was the end of that. If we ever find out about that possible long lost g-uncle, it won’t be the fault of that particular parish priest, and a part of our family history has been denied to us.

I have no idea whether the Catholic church had an official policy against showing records to Mormons at the time of this conversation or not. Even if they did, I have no idea whether the fact that Dad was a direct descendant of the family whose records he was requesting would make a difference.

I’m simply relating what happened.

Oh…by the way, can a religion that the Catholics term ‘not Christian’ BE 'heretical?"

Thank you for the story! I guess there’s, for better or worse, an intrinsic tie between a Mormon interested in genealogy and temple ordinances. I wish there was a better way to go about it (being able to separate the two).

I hate these discussions about the definition of heresy! You’re right, I guess apostate is a more correct term, but even then…I tend to use “heresy” as the Webster’s 1st definition of it, as an “adherence to a religious opinion contrary to church dogma”, looking at it from the Catholic Church perspective.

 

[dianaiad]

It is relevant, as you seem to be bothered that God would have the audacity to do something for His creation without asking first.

No, Rebecca, that is not my position. My position isn’t that God can’t do what He wills; it is that He may indeed do as He wills, but that He (according to my beliefs, anyway) allows us to think what we will, and to accept His will of our own FREE will.

 

[dianaiad]

Thank you for the story! I guess there’s, for better or worse, an intrinsic tie between a Mormon interested in genealogy and temple ordinances. I wish there was a better way to go about it (being able to separate the two).

I hate these discussions about the definition of heresy! You’re right, I guess apostate is a more correct term, but even then…I tend to use “heresy” as the Webster’s 1st definition of it, as an “adherence to a religious opinion contrary to church dogma”, looking at it from the Catholic Church perspective.

Well, including us as ‘heretics’ but not allowing us the title ‘Christian’ sure gives US the short end of both sticks, don’t you think?

 

[RebeccaJ]

No, Rebecca, that is not my position. My position isn’t that God can’t do what He wills; it is that He may indeed do as He wills, but that He (according to my beliefs, anyway) allows us to think what we will, and to accept His will of our own FREE will.

We believe God knows what is in our hearts, our every need, and has a care for all we do. He is tending to His creation, us, even when we do not realize that He is.

We are grateful for this, not resentful.

 

[Religio71]

Well, including us as ‘heretics’ but not allowing us the title ‘Christian’ sure gives US the short end of both sticks, don’t you think?

True, you’re right. I personally refer to LDS as non-traditional Christians.

 

[dianaiad]

We believe God knows what is in our hearts, our every need, and has a care for all we do. He is tending to His creation, us, even when we do not realize that He is.

We are grateful for this, not resentful.

I understand that. I’m going to attempt this one more time…

It is not that I believe you are resentful (I do not.)
Or that you should be resentful (I do not)

It is that you have no other choice but to be grateful. It is…a fact, the way the leaves on the tree outside my window have no other choice right now but to be green. It is a fundamental difference in basic mindset.

Do you remember, when you were LDS, the story WE told about the ‘war in heaven?’ The one where there were two plans of salvation presented to the Father? Lucifer presented one, and said that he would make certain that everybody was saved; no exceptions; none would be able to sin, or even want to do so. The notion of sin would never occur to them, any more than that tree leaf I mentioned would want to turn purple this morning–oh, and all the glory would be his, by the way.

Jesus presented the other one, in which we would all be able to choose whether to accept or reject him (and God). Free will–oh, and the glory would be the Father’s.

It doesn’t matter whether you think the above myth is true, metaphorical or anything else. It illustrates the LDS mindset, that mindset is why I am having problems with what I perceive yours is.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I understand that. I’m going to attempt this one more time…

It is not that I believe you are resentful (I do not.)
Or that you should be resentful (I do not)

It is that you have no other choice but to be grateful. It is…a fact, the way the leaves on the tree outside my window have no other choice right now but to be green. It is a fundamental difference in basic mindset.

God calls to all His children, unceasingly, no matter who you are or your circumstances. God is occupied with each soul, as St. Thérèse, Little Flower tells us:

“Just as the sun shines simultaneously on the tall cedars and on each little flower as though it were alone on the earth, so Our Lord is occupied particularly with each soul as though there were no others like it. And just as in nature all the seasons are arranged in such a way as to make the humblest daisy bloom on a set day, in the same way, everything works out for the good of each soul.”

The leaf on a tree, and the flower, and all of creation have no will of their own to respond to God in any way, except how He made them. God made us for Him, and He gave us a Way to respond to Him. Our response to God is Faith, which is freely given.

Do you remember, when you were LDS, the story WE told about the ‘war in heaven?’ The one where there were two plans of salvation presented to the Father? Lucifer presented one, and said that he would make certain that everybody was saved; no exceptions; none would be able to sin, or even want to do so. The notion of sin would never occur to them, any more than that tree leaf I mentioned would want to turn purple this morning–oh, and all the glory would be his, by the way.

Sin is a condition of turning from God. Faith is the opposite.

Jesus presented the other one, in which we would all be able to choose whether to accept or reject him (and God). Free will–oh, and the glory would be the Father’s.

It doesn’t matter whether you think the above myth is true, metaphorical or anything else. It illustrates the LDS mindset, that mindset is why I am having problems with what I perceive yours is.

God does not leave us to wander into nothing without a care.

The only comparison I can think of for mormon thought is that you use the word perfection, instead of holiness. Which, is fine. Holy and the word “whole” are related words with similar English roots. We are made whole by God, by our response to Him, our Faith, and how we act on that Faith. Purgatory is a state where God perfects us, makes us holy, in order that we can share in the divine nature of God. Nothing unclean can stand before God.

Perhaps it is a matter of timing. We believe we are judged immediately after our death. Mormon belief is that your judgment is later, after which, you are perfected completely by God, or exalted. Just scootch the timing back, and understand that we believe there is one heaven, where all are made perfect to stand before God. In Mormon thought, I suppose you can think of Purgatory as part of the process of exaltation.

 

[dianaiad]

<snip to here, as agreed with, mostly>

Perhaps it is a matter of timing. We believe we are judged immediately after our death. Mormon belief is that your judgment is later, after which, you are perfected completely by God, or exalted. Just scootch the timing back, and understand that we believe there is one heaven, where all are made perfect to stand before God. In Mormon thought, I suppose you can think of Purgatory as part of the process of exaltation.

Makes sense in terms of different approaches to the same problem.

May I ask when Catholics believe that the resurrection happens? Or if we are all to be physically resurrected?

…and no, I’m not changing the subject. Bear with me; I need more information before I know what questions to ask.

 

[RebeccaJ]

May I ask when Catholics believe that the resurrection happens? Or if we are all to be physically resurrected?

At Christ’s return.