Baptism (immersed in water) is necessary

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mercygate said:
I’m not asking for a defense of the “amniotic fluid” thesis. All I’m asking for is a source identifying the origin of this interpretation. I’m not basically talking theology. I’m talking history.
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tabcom said:
The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah
by Alfred Edersheim

My 8th edition version describes Nicodemus on pages 266-7.
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This amniotic fluid interpretation is simply goofy. It is an incredible stretch for the sake of trying to disconnect water baptism from the conversation Jesus had with Nicodemus. It makes no sense and it has absolutely no biblical foundation or Jewish cultural foundation to support it.

No one has ever shown that the Jews referred to childbirth in the terms of the water/amniotic fluid theory proposed on this thread. It was never an idiomatic usage and it was not being referred to by Jesus or Nicodemus. In fact, scripture is the key to knowing just how the Jews did refer to child birth and it is helpful in understanding this passage. John tells us earlier in his gospel exactly how the Jews referred to child birth, and I am convinced that the reference is there to help avoid the kind of sophistry that is used by those that make the amniotic fluid claim.

In John 1:12-13 it says:

“But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God; who were born, not **of blood **nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.”

The terminology associated with natural child birth has nothing to do with water. Instead, it has everything to do with blood, flesh, and will. Moreover, this passage is right at the beginning of that part of John’s gospel that starts talking about John the Baptist and his baptism of Jesus.

Immediately after Jesus conversation with Nicodemus concerning baptism the next thing we see is Jesus and the apostles baptizing people with water. Is that a coincidence? I don’t think so.
 
tabcom said:
Born again - as in, born from above (spiritual) vs. born from the flesh. To be born again from above does require a baptism - by the Holy Spirit. The water that Nicodemus was alluding to – and the footnotes from the NAB points out – was the water from his mother. From a personal example, my wife is six months pregnant. There is going to come a day in February when her ‘water breaks’ and I’ll have to take her to the hospital for the delivery of our baby.

I’m not sure what exactly you are asking. Could you please rephrase the question?

What that link was attempting to point out is that baptizo is the physical change that takes place. NOT the physical movement of an object into a fluid. I have always maintained that baptizo is a permanent change only.

See post #66 for the greek parsing of baptizo in Acts 10:47.

You insist the word means to immerse; that is, to dip into or engross fully in water – used as an adjective.

Whereas the usage of baptized in Acts 10:47 is an infinitive. I suggest all that are interested to take a closer look as to what an infinitive is and how it differs from an adjective.Because they love the filth of their own sin more than doing the Will of God.
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This might be of some use. Baptizo- "Didorus (the Sicilian), Historical Library, book XVI. ch. 80. In his account of Timoleon’s defeat of the Carthaginian army on the bank of the river Crimissus in Sicily, many of the fugitives perishing in the stream swollen by a violent storm, he says: “the river, rushing down with the current increased in violence, SUBMERGED (BAPTIZED) many, and destroyed them attempting to swim through their armour.”

Conant, ibid, page 7. Looks like a physical movement to me.

I have a few more if I have time I will post later.

(Amniotic fluid) I am having a hard time taking this serious.

Peace,
David
 
Effects
Confirmation imparts an increase of sanctifying grace which makes the recipient a “perfect Christian”; a special sacramental grace consisting in the seven gifts of the Holy Ghost and notably in the strength and courage to confess boldly the name of Christ;
an indelible character by reason of which the sacrament cannot be received again by the same person.

Why not administer Confirmation along with infant baptism?
Like Opus Dei,the Neo Cathecumens (NC) are adirect prelature of the Pope. The NCs believe in adult Baptism (water immersion) after 25 years preparation. They do not support pedo baptism.
 
DCD said:
This might be of some use. Baptizo- "Didorus (the Sicilian), Historical Library, book XVI. ch. 80.
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Thank you for providing this quotation. I have a couple questions. When was it written? Would it have been written in Latin?
 
Pax said:
Actually, it is baptism that “puts off the body of the flesh.” This is tied to the washing away of original sin. It is original sin that causes us to live “in the flesh.” Once we are baptized we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, and are by the grace of God able to live in the Spirit and not in the flesh. The flesh is a reference to our carnal fallen nature.

Baptism does give us a circumcision of the heart in the washing away of original sin. This again is a matter of grace and living in the spirit.

I hope this helps.
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Pax . . . I agree with everything you say. Our differences lies in the order it appears. I believe the Baptism of the Holy Spirit puts off the body of the flesh – washing away of original sin – that leads to Grace – that cirucmcisizes the heart.
 
guanophore said:
This is a misunderstanding of the footnote (of John 3:3). Jesus said that one must be “**born from above by water and spirit”. ** That means the second birth involves both water, and spirit.
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Guanophore, Pax, DCD, et. al. . . .
I was really scratching my head as to why you all disagree with not only me, the NAB, Albert Edersheimm, and any number of other sources that I could cite on this point. Then I turned to the original source . . . the original Greek text of John 3:5 . . .



Thus, “born from above by water and spirit” is an improper translation.

The proper translation – regenerated (born) out of water (natural birth) AND pneuma (of spirit).

Can you see the difference in the two translations?

Also, these two types of birth are what Paul talks about in:

2Co 4:16 -
Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man (born of water) is decaying, yet our inner man (born of spirit) is being renewed day by day.

Eph 3:16 -
that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man,
 
tabcom said:
So this ‘Batpism of desire’ trumps the dippin’ kind? :whacky:
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Are you Catholic? If so, ask your priest, or you can read Bishop Sheen. He spoke often about the baptism of desire. How else was the repentant thief to be saved? Obviously, if you are not currently dying on a cross, you should be baptized with water and the Spirit. Is this really so difficult? :confused:
 
tabcom said:
As a fellow catholic christian, it is my duty to post this . . . Matthew 12:34 For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. Psalms 12:3 The lord shall cut off all flattering lips and the tongue that speaketh proud things. * cut off - Hebrew: Karath - destroy or consume James 4:6 – God resisteth the proud but giveth grace to the humble. * proud - Greek: huperephanos meaning to appear above others from:
  • huper - over or above
  • phaino - lighten, shine, appear or be seen
  • resisteth - antitassomai - originally a military term in Greek meaning “to rage in battle against” or “to make war with”
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Scriptural counterpoint:

1 Corinthians 1:31 Therefore, as it is written: “Let him who boasts boast in the Lord.”

2 Corinthians 1:14
as you have understood us in part, you will come to understand fully that you can boast of us just as we will boast of you in the day of the Lord Jesus.

2 Corinthians 10:8
For even if I boast somewhat freely about the authority the Lord gave us for building you up rather than pulling you down, I will not be ashamed of it.

2 Corinthians 10:17 But, “Let him who boasts boast in the Lord.”

2 Corinthians 11:17 In this self-confident boasting I am not talking as the Lord would, but as a fool.

2 Corinthians 12:1 Paul’s Vision and His Thorn ] I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord.

Galatians 6:14 May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

I believe we can boast in the Lord, for such is to praise His Holy Name.

Proud that Christ’s peace is with you. 😉
 
Baptism

**What is Baptism? **

Baptism is the sacrament that gives our souls the new life of sanctifying grace by which we become children of God and heirs of heaven.

Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (John 3:5)

** What sins does Baptism take away? **

Baptism takes away original sin; and also actual sin and all the punishment due to them, if the person baptized be guilty of any actual sins and truly sorry for them.

Get up and be baptized and wash away thy sins, calling on his name. (Acts 22:16)

** What are the effects of the character imprinted on the soul by Baptism? **

The effects of the character imprinted on the soul by Baptism are that we become members of the Church, subject to its laws, and capable of receiving other sacraments.

** Who can administer Baptism? **

The priest is the usual minister of Baptism, but if there is danger that someone will die without Baptism, anyone else may and should baptize.

** How would you give Baptism? **

I would give Baptism by pouring ordinary water on the forehead of the person to be baptized, saying while pouring it: “I baptize thee in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.”

** Why is Baptism necessary for the salvation of all men? **

Baptism is necessary for the salvation of all men because Christ has said: “Unless a man be born again of water and the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”

Now they who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls. (Acts 2:41)

** How can those be saved who through no fault of their own have not received the sacrament of Baptism? **

Those who through no fault of their own have not received the sacrament of Baptism can be saved through what is called baptism of blood or baptism of desire.

** How does an unbaptized person receive the baptism of blood? **

An unbaptized person receives the baptism of blood when he suffers martyrdom for the faith of Christ.

Greater love than this no one has, that one lay down his life for his friends. (John 15:13)

** How does an unbaptized person receive the baptism of desire? **

An unbaptized person receives the baptism of desire when he loves God above all things and desires to do all that is necessary for his salvation.

If anyone love me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our abode with him. (John 14:23)

** When should children be baptized? **

Children should be baptized as soon as possible after birth.

** What sin do Catholic parents commit who put off for a long time, or entirely neglect, the Baptism of their children? **

Catholic parents who put off for a long time, or entirely neglect, the Baptism of their children, commit a mortal sin.

** What do we promise through our godparents in Baptism?**

We promise through our godparents in Baptism to renounce the devil and to live according to the teachings of Christ and of His Church.

** Why is the name of a saint given in Baptism? **

The name of a saint is given in Baptism in order that the person baptized may imitate his virtues and have him for a protector.

** What is the duty of a godparent after Baptism?**

The duty of a godparent after Baptism is to see that the child is brought up a good Catholic, if this is not done by the parents.

**Who should be chosen as godparents for Baptism? **

Only Catholics who know their faith and live up to the duties of their religion should be chosen as godparents for Baptism.
 
tabcom said:
Returning to po18guy’s commentary . . .

With respects to . . .

Footnotes from New American Bible
United States Conference of Catholic Bishops

John 3:3
Jesus answered and said to him, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born 3 from above.”

3 [3] Born: see the note on John 1:13. From above: the Greek adverb anothen means both “from above” and “again.” Jesus means “from above” (see John 3:31) but Nicodemus misunderstands it as “again.” This misunderstanding serves as a springboard for further instruction.

John 1:13
**8 **who were born not by natural generation nor by human choice nor by a man’s decision but of God.

8 [13] Believers in Jesus become children of God not through any of the three natural causes mentioned but through God who is the immediate cause of the new spiritual life. Were born: the Greek verb can mean “begotten” (by a male) or “born” (from a female or of parents). The variant “he who was begotten,” asserting Jesus’ virginal conception, is weakly attested in Old Latin and Syriac versions.

Thus, your claim has been refuted.
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Can we please set the Greek aside? Neither Christ, nor Nicodemus spoke Greek. They spoke Aramaic. The same misuse of Greek leads Protestants to claim that Peter was not appointed as head of the earthly church, and that in Matthew 16:18, Christ referrred to Himself as the rock. Poor translation from the Greek, and poor transliteration, has lead to many problems with scripture.
 
tabcom said:
Guanophore, Pax, DCD, et. al. . . .
I was really scratching my head as to why you all disagree with not only me, the NAB, Albert Edersheimm, and any number of other sources that I could cite on this point. Then I turned to the original source . . . the original Greek text of John 3:5 . . .

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a352/tabcom/John34.jpg

Thus, “born from above by water and spirit” is an improper translation.

The proper translation – regenerated (born) out of water (natural birth) AND pneuma (of spirit).

Can you see the difference in the two translations?

Also, these two types of birth are what Paul talks about in:

2Co 4:16 -
Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man (born of water) is decaying, yet our inner man (born of spirit) is being renewed day by day.
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Certainly you can scratch your head as you please, but that would not make your assertion necessarily correct, that “the proper translation — regenerated (born) out of water (natural birth) and pneuma ( of spirit).”
Who confirmed that your understanding that “born of water” means “natural birth”? Not God but you alone!
 
po18guy said:
Can we please set the Greek aside? Neither Christ, nor Nicodemus spoke Greek.
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Regretfully, because we do not have an audio recording of this conversion, we must rely on the original source from where it was recorded. That would be from the original Greek text.
po18guy said:
Poor translation from the Greek, and poor transliteration, has lead to many problems with scripture.
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Yes, indeed. That is why I recommend using Interlinear Scripture to resolve the poor transliteration that is the un-inspired language of God (English).
 
po18guy said:
I believe we can boast in the Lord, for such is to praise His Holy Name.

Proud that Christ’s peace is with you. 😉
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Well stated. I stand corrected from my previous post that you are replying to.

:yup: That’s right folks, tabcom can repent of past statements.
 
tabcom said:
Thank you for providing this quotation. I have a couple questions. When was it written? Would it have been written in Latin?
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tabcom,

It is dated between 60-30 B.C… This is a guess only but it appears to be written in Greek.

Here is a link.
livius.org/di-dn/diodorus/siculus.html

Dr. T.J. Conant (a Baptist) did a study and of 175 uses of baptizo in ancient Greek he found the english word “dip” only ten times.

" Diodorus (the Sicilian), Historical Library, book I, ch. 36. Describing the effects of the rapid rise of the water during the annual inudation of the nile, he says: “Most of the wild land animals are surrounded by the stream and perish, being SUBMERGED (BAPTIZED); but some, escaping to the high grounds, are saved.”

Peace,
David
 
DCD said:
This might be of some use. Baptizo- "Didorus (the Sicilian), Historical Library, book XVI. ch. 80. In his account of Timoleon’s defeat of the Carthaginian army on the bank of the river Crimissus in Sicily, many of the fugitives perishing in the stream swollen by a violent storm, he says: “the river, rushing down with the current increased in violence, SUBMERGED (BAPTIZED) many, and destroyed them attempting to swim through their armour.”

Conant, ibid, page 7. Looks like a physical movement to me.

I have a few more if I have time I will post later.

(Amniotic fluid) I am having a hard time taking this serious.

Peace,
David
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Yes, this is helpful. This is the same sense of the word when it was used in tabcom’s pickle recipe example. The cukes were dipped in a fluid, then submerged in another fluid.
 
tabcom said:
Guanophore, Pax, DCD, et. al. . . .
I was really scratching my head as to why you all disagree with not only me, the NAB, Albert Edersheimm, and any number of other sources that I could cite on this point. Then I turned to the original source . . . the original Greek text of John 3:5 . . .

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a352/tabcom/John34.jpg

Thus, “born from above by water and spirit” is an improper translation.

The proper translation – regenerated (born) out of water (natural birth) AND pneuma (of spirit).

Can you see the difference in the two translations?

Also, these two types of birth are what Paul talks about in:

2Co 4:16 -
Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man (born of water) is decaying, yet our inner man (born of spirit) is being renewed day by day.

Eph 3:16 -
that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man,
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Primarily we disagree because we know the Apostolic Teaching is that being born again of water and spirit happens at baptism. However, the descriptions used to describe physical fleshly birth do not include water. They are blood, flesh, and the will of man. Spiritual birth (regeneration) occurs with water and spirit. Would you not agree that one is not regenerated upon physical birth?

If that were the case, everyone born physically would be regenerated, but we know they are not. In fact, until we come to Christ, we are “degenerate”.

The birth of regeneration is Christ’s birth, which occurs in baptism. When one goes under the water, one dies with Christ, and in coming out, rises with Him.

“…and you were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.” Col 2:12

The spirit baptism is not separated from the water. They occur at the same time, and it is through faith in the working of God that the saving work of Christ is applied to the individual.

Jesus, who is the Baptizer, places His spirit within us, and we become strengthened in the “inner man”. This is why Catholics say that baptism is salvific.
 
To all following this thread here is another:

"Polybius, History, book VIII, ch.8,4. Describing the operation of the engines, which Archimedes constructed for the defense of Syracuse when besieged by the Romans, and with which he lifted the prows of the besieging vessels out of the water, so that they stood erect on the stern, and let them fall, he says: " Which being done, some of the vessels fell on their side, and some were overturned; but most of them, when the prow was let fall from on high, BEING SUBMERGED (BAPTIZED), became filled with sea-water and confusion.

Peace,
David
 
tabcom said:
Guanophore, Pax, DCD, et. al. . . .
I was really scratching my head as to why you all disagree with not only me, the NAB, Albert Edersheimm, and any number of other sources that I could cite on this point. Then I turned to the original source . . . the original Greek text of John 3:5 . . .

Thus, “born from above by water and spirit” is an improper translation.

The proper translation – regenerated (born) out of water (natural birth) AND pneuma (of spirit).

Can you see the difference in the two translations?

Also, these two types of birth are what Paul talks about in:

2Co 4:16 -
Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man (born of water) is decaying, yet our inner man (born of spirit) is being renewed day by day.

Eph 3:16 -
that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man,
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I am still not sure why you are saying that “born from above by water and spirit” is an improper translation.
EK can be translated as: out of, from, by, away from

And if it is the improper translation, then why do all of the english translations translate it that way?
**
KJV - Jhn 3:5 - **
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

**NKJV - Jhn 3:5 - **
Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

NLT - Jhn 3:5 -
Jesus replied, "The truth is, no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit.
Footnote:
Or spirit. The Greek word for Spirit can also be translated wind; see 3:8.

**NIV - Jhn 3:5 - **
Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.

**ESV - Jhn 3:5 - **
Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

**
NASB - Jhn 3:5 - **
Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

RSV - Jhn 3:5 -
Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

ASV - Jhn 3:5 -
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God!

**Young - Jhn 3:5 - **
Jesus answered, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the reign of God;

**Darby - Jhn 3:5 - **
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except any one be born of water and of Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

**Webster - Jhn 3:5 - **
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say to thee, Except a man be born of water, and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

**HNV - Jhn 3:5 - **
Yeshua answered, "Most assuredly I tell you, unless one is born of water and spirit, he can’t enter into the Kingdom of God!

And even if it is translated “born out of water”, that doesn’t mean that it is referring to the water of your birth, it could mean that you are born out of the waters of baptism and born of the spirit of baptism.

And as for 2Co 4:16 : I have to say that you are really reading things into scripture which are not there.
Why don’t we stick to what scripture actually says instead of inserting our own personal footnotes.
 
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