Baptism (immersed in water) is necessary

[DCD]

tabcom,

Thank you for the verses. Now could you demonstrate how these verses prove or disprove that that the Holy Spirit is recieved before baptism.

Jn.14:verse 15-16

Jesus says if you love me you will keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor…

Keep his commandments (ALL) one of the commandments of Christ is baptism. Then the reception of the Holy Spirit.

Peace,
David

 

[po18guy]

Five weeks of age is kind of young to be confessing Christ. Though there is only one baptism I believe that it must be for those who confess Christ.

“Baptize entire households” Doesn’t say “No kids allowed” Also, your belief does not allow for the baptism of the profoundly disabled, since they can make no such confession. Isn’t God’s grace larger than that?

I have had the gift of the Holy Spirit for almost one year. The saving baptism (baptism of the Holy Spirit) and the gift of the Holy Spirit are distinctive from each other.

The Catholic Church considers each, baptism and reception of the Holy Spirit (Confirmation) as separate Sacraments.

Even though my sins are in remmission I still do make mistakes.

Make no mistake: knowingly making mistakes is sin. What now?

Is Baptism’s power physical or spiritual?

Does the water itself have the power, or does the power come from God?

When the pastor supported you during your baptism, the water did not touch you where Pastor’s hands were. Are you still baptized?

How did the woman with a hemorrage receive healing by touching a physical object (the fringe of Christ’s cloak)? Since her desire for healing and her faith saved her, why would you have to be completely immersed to be baptized, especially if you desired the remission of sin and had faith that it would happen? God saved many without baptism, even assuming them into Heaven.

Christ’s peace be always with you.

 

[tabcom]

tabcom,

Thank you for the verses. Now could you demonstrate how these verses prove or disprove that that the Holy Spirit is recieved before baptism.

Within the framework of this forum, no. It has taken me years to compile those, and many more verses. It took you less than 30 mins. to reply back to my post. Take some time, lots of time, to study them.

 

[guanophore]

 When used in the New Testament, this word more often refers to our union and identification with Christ than to our water baptism. e.g. Mark 16:16. 'He that believes and is baptised shall be saved'. Christ is saying that mere intellectual assent is not enough. There must be a union with him, a real change, like the vegetable to the pickle! Bible Study Magazine, James Montgomery Boice, May 1989.

In the NT, tabcom, there is no separation between the two. Those who receive the HS are baptized, and those who are baptized receive the HS. It is baptism with “water and the spirit” that causes us to be born again, and identifies us with Christ.

What do you mean by “Bible-Only”?

A “Bible Only” Christian does not accept any other documents or sources as authoritative. The reject the teaching authority that Jesus appointed for the Church, and disregard the Early Church Fathers.

A “Bible Only” Christian would not accept what the Didache says about baptism as being valid or authentic in assisting how the word baptism is used in the bible.

 

[Pax]

Once again, I disagree with this statement. According to the footnotes of

New American Bible United States Conference of Catholic Bishops., quoted here . . .

24 [John 1:32] Like a dove: a symbol of the new creation (Genesis 8:8) or the community of Israel (Hosea 11:11). Remain: the first use of a favorite verb in John, emphasizing the permanency of the relationship between Father and Son (as here) and between the Son and the Christian. Jesus is the permanent bearer of the Spirit.

Also, from the Nelson’s NKJV Study Bible:

'God had given John a sign by which he would know the Messiah, namely, the descending of the Holy Spirit as a dove (John 1:31).

With respects to the “You have got to be kidding me”, "being stubborn, “a bit obtuse”, and “irrelevant” statements, I feel that I am nearing the end of the very point that I wished to make from the beginning.

Pax:

Do you agree with guanophore when he says:

A simple ‘yes’ or ‘no’ answer is all I’m looking for.
A reply in the affirmative will greatly assist me in proceeding to my conclusion regarding this topic.

Is this a trick question? And why is it so necessary that my explanation be limited to a simple yes or no?

I simply agree with scripture and Christian teaching which I have already quoted and stated. I do agree with guanaphore in so far as the manifestation of the Spirit in the form of a dove is a physical sign to confirm the truth of water baptism in Christians throughout the ages.

If I offended you with some of my remarks then I sincerely apologize. I made the remarks because I am having an extremely difficult time appreciating how it is that you come to your understandings. Your explanations baffle me. I simply don’t see how anyone can adopt your line of reasoning.

I’m sorry, it just doesn’t add up.

 

[guanophore]

I am having an extremely difficult time appreciating how it is that you come to your understandings. Your explanations baffle me. I simply don’t see how anyone can adopt your line of reasoning.

I’m sorry, it just doesn’t add up.

There have been several conclusions that have absolutely blown my mind. The one about Peter “forbidding water” to the house of Cornelius one of them. I just can’t manage to wrap my brain around that.

 

[DCD]

Within the framework of this forum, no. It has taken me years to compile those, and many more verses. It took you less than 30 mins. to reply back to my post. Take some time, lots of time, to study them.

Well maybe we can try to hammer out your first verse. Jn. 14: 15-16 Did my explantion help or hurt was I way off? In order to recieve the Counselor we have to keep The Lord’s commandments. Can we agree on that verse?

Take your time and respond when it is convient for you. I will do the same. We are all trying to get to the same place.

Peace,
David

 

[Philthy]

I do appreciate your inquiry.

I’ll be happy to show you my cards, if you would be so kind as to show us yours first . . . .
:coffeeread:

My cards? I have no cards! Oh wait, maybe one…I have a minor in Philosophy from Villanova University. Does that count for anything? It allows me to apply basic analytical reasoning/logic and not much else. Logic and reasoning are indispensable in the conversion of facts to knowldedge and understanding, of course.
I consider myself, in the grand scheme of Church history, to be on the order of an intellectual maggot and I wouldnt dream of pretending to be competent enough to contradict generations of scholars who devoted their lives to competency in Scriptural languages. Your turn.

 

[Philthy]

Holy Spirit = Truth (John 14:16,17- John 15:26 – John 16:13- I John 5:6)
Doing Truth = coming to the Light (John 3:21)
Those that are in the Light where predestinated (1 John 1:5-7)
Those that were predestinated; God foreknew (Rom 8:29)
That foreknowledge occurred before birth (Rom 9:11)

Honestly tabcom, this is why people get frustrated trying to communicate with you. Do you really think that this list of statements addresses my question of why you believe Christ could not have “received” the holy Spirit in a unique way when he was baptized? I dont, and trust me, Im not alone.
I do appreciate, though, that you stuck with my recommendation not to bold everything you type - that was a good move my friend!

 

[tabcom]

David (DCD), I do value your questions. At this time, I have been working on a particular point for several months now regarding baptism. I wish to continue on that point without further delay. Perhaps we can discuss these questions at a later time.

 

[tabcom]

Do you really think that this list of statements addresses my question of why you believe Christ could not have “received” the holy Spirit in a unique way when he was baptized? I dont.

You did ask for Scripture that connects-the-dots to Christ always having the Holy Spirit. The dots do connect. But it does take a concentrated effort to do the work to see the whole picture. It can be frustrating. I had no expectation that anyone would ‘get it’ by just flipping through the Bible one time. I have even less faith that anyone would even bothered to look-up the verses after I cited them.

I do agree with guanaphore in so far as the manifestation of the Spirit in the form of a dove is a physical sign to confirm the truth of water baptism in Christians throughout the ages.

Thank you. There is no need to split hairs over this point any further.

Philthy:

quanaphore, Pax, and myself all agree, in so much as, the Holy Spirit appeared as a sign to John. This is not the same as, Jesus received the Holy Spirit when he was baptized by John. I hope this is a satisfactory answer to your question.

To all that have been following this thread, I am approaching my intended conclusion on this topic. And I promise, there will not be a single Scriptural citation in the statement.

 

[guanophore]

I have even less faith that anyone would even bothered to look-up the verses after I cited them.

Wonder why that is?

 

[Pax]

…
…
Philthy:

quanaphore, Pax, and myself all agree, in so much as, the Holy Spirit appeared as a sign to John. This is not the same as, Jesus received the Holy Spirit when he was baptized by John. I hope this is a satisfactory answer to your question.

To all that have been following this thread, I am approaching my intended conclusion on this topic. And I promise, there will not be a single Scriptural citation in the statement.

You cannot separate the sign and the reality…Jesus received the Holy Spirit.

 

[mgrfin]

Five weeks of age is kind of young to be confessing Christ. Though there is only one baptism I believe that it must be for those who confess Christ. I have had the gift of the Holy Spirit for almost one year. The saving baptism (baptism of the Holy Spirit) and the gift of the Holy Spirit are distinctive from each other. Even though my sins are in remmission I still do make mistakes.

I know I am coming in on this discussion in the middle, or near the end.

I don’t understand what"Baptism of the Holy Spirit" is. There is only only baptism: with water, and “in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”.

The gifts of the Holy Spirit are the fruit of the sacrament of baptism and confirmation. Sacrament and gifts of the Spirit are not the same thing.

The Sacraments work 'ex opere operato", that is by the very carrying out of the sacrament rite.

For example, the Anointing of the Sick: even if the person is unconscious, the Sacrament has its effect. True also of any of the sacraments, excepting Matrimony since full consent must be given.

Okay. This is where I come in. What am I missing?

maranatha

 

[mgrfin]

You cannot separate the sign and the reality…Jesus received the Holy Spirit.

No, No, and No.

The baptism of John was not the Sacrament of Baptism, and as a result Jesus Christ who was the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity did not receive the Holy Spirit with this action.

We are treading non-Catholic water here.

peace

 

[Pax]

No, No, and No.

The baptism of John was not the Sacrament of Baptism, and as a result Jesus Christ who was the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity did not receive the Holy Spirit with this action.

We are treading non-Catholic water here.

peace

Please read the gospel accounts of Jesus baptism by John. Then refer to paragraph 438 of the CCC.

Paragraph 438 says:

"438 Jesus’ messianic consecration reveals his divine mission, "for the name ‘Christ’ implies ‘he who anointed’, ‘he who was anointed’ and ‘the very anointing with which he was anointed’. The one who anointed is the Father, the one who was anointed is the Son, and he was anointed with the Spirit who is the anointing.’"His eternal messianic consecration was revealed during the time of his earthly life at the moment of his baptism by John, when “God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power”, "that he might be revealed to Israel"as its Messiah. His works and words will manifest him as “the Holy One of God”.

I agree with both the gospel accounts and the Catechism. Please be advised that I have never claimed that John’s baptism was Trinitarian baptism. I fully acknowledge that John’s baptism was the baptism of repentance.

 

[savedsinner]

Is there a good Catholic book available on the topic of baptism?

 

[mgrfin]

Please read the gospel accounts of Jesus baptism by John. Then refer to paragraph 438 of the CCC.

Paragraph 438 says:

"438 Jesus’ messianic consecration reveals his divine mission, "for the name ‘Christ’ implies ‘he who anointed’, ‘he who was anointed’ and ‘the very anointing with which he was anointed’. The one who anointed is the Father, the one who was anointed is the Son, and he was anointed with the Spirit who is the anointing.’"His eternal messianic consecration was revealed during the time of his earthly life at the moment of his baptism by John, when “God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power”, "that he might be revealed to Israel"as its Messiah. His works and words will manifest him as “the Holy One of God”.

I agree with both the gospel accounts and the Catechism. Please be advised that I have never claimed that John’s baptism was Trinitarian baptism. I fully acknowledge that John’s baptism was the baptism of repentance.

I’m a little nervous about this, There were two natures in Christ, the human and the divine. His divine nature always beheld the vision of the Father, was always united with the Father and the Spirit.

Since this baptism of John was not a sacrament, I always felt that this rite was more for our sakes than for Jesus’ sake. “This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased”.

I have to work thru it in my own mind, with the help of St. Irenaeus.

peace

 

[fellowChristian]

exuse me if this has been said…

When we read

Luke 1:5

Birth of John the Baptist Foretold

5 In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah; and he had a wife from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth.

The fact that he was a priest and Elizabeth being from Aaron’s decendents makes any son of her’s a priest.

Exodus 40

13"You shall put the holy garments on **Aaron and anoint him **and consecrate him, that he may minister as a priest to Me.

14"You shall bring **his sons **and put tunics on them;

15and you shall **anoint them even as you have anointed their father, that they may minister as priests to Me; and their anointing will qualify them for a perpetual priesthood throughout their generations." **

So John the Baptist is a priest. And what do priest do?They annoint.

1 Kings 1:39
**Zadok **the priest then **took **the horn of oil from the tent and anointed Solomon Then they blew the trumpet, and all the people said, " Long live King Solomon!"

I believe Zadok was from the tribe of Levites,Aaron’s children,but only because of this…

2 Samuel 15:24
Now behold,** Zadok also came, and all the Levites with him **carrying the ark of the covenant of God And they set down the ark of God, and Abiathar came up until all the people had finished passing from the city.

So the baptism of John the Baptist is really a priest anointing the new King! Fullfilling all rightousness.

**485 **
The mission of the Holy Spirit is always conjoined and ordered to that of the Son. The Holy Spirit, “the Lord, the giver of Life,” is sent to sanctify the womb of the Virgin Mary and divinely fecundate it, causing her to conceive the eternal Son of the Father in a humanity drawn from her own.

The Holy Spirit came and made holy the womb of Mary and placed God the Son there.

**486 **
The Father’s only Son, conceived as man in the womb of the Virgin Mary, is “Christ,” that is to say, anointed by the Holy Spirit, from the beginning of his human existence, though the manifestation of this fact takes place only progressively: to the shepherds, to the magi, to John the Baptist, to the disciples.123 Thus the whole life of Jesus Christ will make manifest “how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power.”

Anointed with the Holy Spirit from the begining of His existence.

Christ’s Baptism

1223
All the Old Covenant prefigurations find their fulfillment in Christ Jesus. He begins his public life after having himself baptized by St. John the Baptist in the Jordan.17 After his resurrection Christ gives this mission to his apostles: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you."18

**1224 **
Our Lord voluntarily submitted himself to the baptism of St. John, intended for sinners, in order to "fulfill all righteousness."19 Jesus’ gesture is a manifestation of his self-emptying.20 The Spirit who had hovered over the waters of the first creation descended then on the Christ as a prelude of the new creation, and the Father revealed Jesus as his "beloved Son."21

I hope my understanding of this helps:blush:

The Catachism of the Catholic Church
usccb.org/catechism/text/entiretoc1.htm

 

[po18guy]

I’ve heard that even though it is quite rare and hardly done that way that it is possible for a Catholic priest to baptize by immersion.

Is this true?

One right here. It is still the preferred method, but many parishes are not set up for it. I was dunked in a livestock watering tank. Quite humbling and a spiritual linkage back to the manger. This whole immersion only thing is quite baffling to me. That makes God’s grace apply only if every molecule of your body is wet with the water. Well, why not drink some of it, too then, just to be sure? We must avoid this modern tendency to make God pocket-sized by thinking of Him as man does. He can cleanse you with three drops rain.

Questions for our Protestant brothers and sisters: is baptism strictly physical, or spiritual in nature? If it’s physical, where in scripture does it say this? And does the water have spirit-cleansing power, or is it God’s grace which actually cleanses? If it’s God, then why is only immersion valid? Is His power so limited?

“Inquisitive” minds want to know.