Baptism (immersed in water) is necessary

[meandean]

God be praised! Welcome to CA Forums. The Church of Christ is almost unique among Protestant denominations in believing the Apostolic teaching that Baptism actually DOES take away both original sin and actual sin.

I am also a Christian, baptized at 5 weeks of age, not by immersion. I proudly testify at every opportunity to the saving power of the covenant blood of Jesus Christ. We agree: Baptism is necessary!

catholics are not christians, they are catholics. only the blood of christ takes the stain of sin away. nothing else period.

 

[clmowry]

catholics are not christians, they are catholics. only the blood of christ takes the stain of sin away. nothing else period.

So basically your saying you know nothing about the Catholic Church and would like to learn right?

Where would you like to start?

Chuck

 

[mercygate]

catholics are not christians, they are catholics.

Where did you get the idea that Catholics are not Christians? only the blood of christ takes the stain of sin away. nothing else period.Catholics believe this. Where are you getting your information?

I am frankly quite surprised to hear this bizarre allegation on these forums, where our Protestant participants are usually a little more up to speed.

Really: where did you get the idea that Catholics are not Christians?

 

[roseyfrohio]

Good afternoon and God bless,

I was baptised when I was a baby (catholic), some of my friends who are protestant we’re baptised when they we’re babies.

My friend claims my baptism Does Not count, because I was not totally immersed and because I was a baby.

My baptism DOES COUNT.

My friend who is a wonderful christian woman, she really loves the Lord. She also wanted me to attend her church to be washed in the Holy Spirit because we catholics are not bathed in the Holy Spirit, NOT, yes I believe with all my heart I have been washed in the Holy Spirit.

I asked her do you really know whats in my heart, she doesn’t and she would like to change me, NOT, I’m fine. She also has stopped hanging around others that do not believe as she does, because they will influence her and her church doesn’t want that to happen, go figure.

Lots of people don’t think Catholics are christians and its a shame because they miss out on talking to us as fellow christians, their LOSS.

I’M PROUD TO BE A CHRISTIAN, YES I’M A CATHOLIC CHRISTIAN and proud of it.

 

[po18guy]

myfavoritmartin in his post under the thread: Baptism, non-essential!points out that there are a total of 5 different views of this passage.

This is classic Protestant error. I will have nothing to do with it. At the beginning of His ministry, Christ submitted to baptism, thus sanctifying it. Why would He do this if it was not needed? Especially since HE did not need it, but sanctified it as a major part of His grace to us.

Matthew 28:18-20 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Good grief! Why would Christ say this?

 

[po18guy]

catholics are not christians, they are catholics. only the blood of christ takes the stain of sin away. nothing else period.

Great name, man! Truthfully, if you are willing to admit that you don’t know everything (as I freely admit to you) you might just come to see that your quote is exactly backwards: “are non-Catholics actually Christian?” Of course the blood He shed is for our redemption. Why do you think we have Christ hanging on the cross in Catholic Churches, because it’s a pretty sight? NO! It’s the ugliness of our sin hanging there, washed away with His blood. Many reject Jesus’ teaching in John 6. Many reject Paul’s teaching in 1 Corinthians 11. Are they truly Christian if they reject or disregard Christ’s teachings by re-defining them to suit their own purpose?

You are here for a reason that might surprise you.

Christ’s peace.

 

[savedsinner]

myfavoritmartin in his post under the thread: Baptism, non-essential!

points out that there are a total of 5 different views of this passage.

Were those the different views held by the church fathers who couldn’t agree on the meaning of baptism, or are they the different views held by different protestant denominations who can’t agree on the meaning of baptism?

 

[guanophore]

In an earlier post Tabcom quoted myfavoritemartin as below.

**

Is anyone able to cite some scholarly references that back this up?**

No. I have never seen any.

catholics are not christians, they are catholics.

LOL!

That one is good.

catholics are not christians, they are catholics. only the blood of christ takes the stain of sin away. nothing else period.

only the blood of christ takes the stain of sin away. nothing else period.

Right. But how is the saving blood applied to the individual?

Rev 7:14
"These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

How are our robes made white? By the waters of baptism:

Titus 3:5-8
by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, 6 which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.

Baptism regenerates us by the HS, and His grace is poured into us, justifying us, that we may enter into eternal life.

Were those the different views held by the church fathers who couldn’t agree on the meaning of baptism, or are they the different views held by different protestant denominations who can’t agree on the meaning of baptism?

The latter is the case. Everyone understood water baptism as a sacrament from the time of Jesus’ baptism until 1500 when people began to look for reasons to reject the sacramental nature of the faith.

 

[Mannyfit75]

catholics are not christians, they are catholics. only the blood of christ takes the stain of sin away. nothing else period.

For your information my friend. We, Catholics are Christians. I don’t know who started this lie that Catholic are not Christians.

The death of our Lord at the cross did destroyed our death in sin, and his resurrection restored our life as I pointed out in another thread.

Baptism does indeed save.

21 Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. – 1 Peter 3:21.

Baptism is also prophecize by the prophet.

The Lord said to the Prophet Ezekiel in Ezekiel 36:25-27

I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you willl shall be clean from your uncleaness, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you; and I will take out your flesh the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statues, and be careful to observe my ordinances.

This was fullfilled in John 3:5-6.

Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of Spirit is spirit.”

Isaiah 44:3 is another. The Lord said through the prophet Isaiah:

“For I will **pour water **on the thirsty land, and streams on the dry land; I will pour my Spirit upon your descendants, and my blessings on your offspring.”

Hebrew 10:23 also shows the necessary of being baptized.

Paul said,

"Let us draw near with a truth heart in full assurance of faith with our **hearts sprinkled clean **from an evil conscience nand our bodies washed with pure water.

We see in this Biblical passages pouring or the word sprinkling. This implies the necessity of baptism. Early Christians baptized because Jesus commanded his Apostles, “Baptized them, In the Name of the Father, And of the Son, and Of the Holy Spirit.”

We also see that in the conversion of Saul to Christian. He was baptized by Annias. Cornelius and his family filled with the Holy Spirit were baptized by Peter. Baptism is part of being a Christian. Baptism is what makes us Christians.

Water immersion was also common in the Early Church but when persecution started. The baptism was done through sprinkling or pouring water on the believer. There wasn’t a large amount of water. Baptism is always pour on the forehead.

If you have not noticed this before in the Penecost Sunday, all the Apostles and the disciples of Jesus Christ, had the Holy Spirit fell upon them on their head like tongues on fire.

 

[po18guy]

In an earlier post Tabcom quoted myfavoritemartin as below.

**

Is anyone able to cite some scholarly references that back this up?**

Here, Christ teaches Nicodemus both in parable and then in plain Aramaic. First comes the cryptic instruction that he must be “born again”. When Nicodemus questioned Him about this, Jesus reacted as He did with the other disciples, He spoke plainly. If he meant the amniotic fluid, why didn’t he say so? And, if it is the amniotic fluid, then everyone is already “born again” and needs only the spirit. Yet, Christ still said both “water and the spirit”. And, this was after Christ had sanctified baptism by submitting to it Himself.

Of the five “versions” that myfavouritemartin gave, only one can be true, and it’s not the one he thinks. His belief is relatively new, like some of the JW, Morman and SDA beliefs, with no history tracing back to the Apostles. Classic examples of false prophets twisting truth to their own destruction.

The evil one is so cunning that he even has some Christians disbelieving Christ’s own words, and Christ IS the Word.

Christ’s peace.

 

[po18guy]

Were those the different views held by the church fathers who couldn’t agree on the meaning of baptism, or are they the different views held by different protestant denominations who can’t agree on the meaning of baptism?

I don’t know specifically. I suspect most of them are recent inventions that do not square at all with scripture. Some are laughable, all except the truth are dangerous. The Protestant deformation threw the theological door wide open, leading to massive quantities of looney scripture interpretations. Some are very close to the full truth, but all are error.

Christ’s peace.

 

[tkthompson244]

If baptizism saves you… then what about the thief next to Jesus?

Luke 23:42-43
41 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.” 43 And Jesus said to him " Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise"

The thief was not baptized. How then, if you must be baptized to enter Heaven could he have been in Paradise with Jesus?
I looked through many of the previous posts(not all) and found no reference to this. Just thought I would throw it out there to see the thoughts on it.

 

[po18guy]

If baptizism saves you… then what about the thief next to Jesus?

Luke 23:42-43
41 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.” 43 And Jesus said to him " Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise"

The thief was not baptized. How then, if you must be baptized to enter Heaven could he have been in Paradise with Jesus?
I looked through many of the previous posts(not all) and found no reference to this. Just thought I would throw it out there to see the thoughts on it.

That is the classic example of God’s grace known as “the Baptism of desire”. There was no opportunity for physical baptism, so Christ, in His goodness, revealed hope to the repentant thief.

Christ’s peace.

 

[Mannyfit75]

If baptizism saves you… then what about the thief next to Jesus?

Luke 23:42-43
41 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.” 43 And Jesus said to him " Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise"

The thief was not baptized. How then, if you must be baptized to enter Heaven could he have been in Paradise with Jesus?
I looked through many of the previous posts(not all) and found no reference to this. Just thought I would throw it out there to see the thoughts on it.

This is commonly known to us as baptism of desire. There was no means of being baptized on the cross, yet he confessed and repented before our Lord.

Baptism of desire (Latin Baptismus Flaminis) is a Catholic teaching explaining that those who desire baptism, but are not baptized with water through the Christian ritual, because of death, nevertheless bring about the fruits of Baptism, if their grace of conversion included an internal act of perfect love and contrition which automatically cleanses the soul of all sin.

The Catechism states,

“For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament”(CCC 1259).

If you have more questions concerning this check out this website.

geocities.com/Athens/Rhodes/3543/bapdesire.htm

 

[Salamander]

First of all, Catholics view non-Catholic Christians as our separated brothers and sisters in Christ. Yes, we recognize you as a Christian.

No, you don’t. Protestants in the eyes of the Catholic church are not Christians but “Protesters”.

An adult must have faith and must be baptized to join the Christian family as an adopted son or daughter of God. This follows the exact Old Law Jewish practice of circumcision of converts when they came to faith in Yaweh. Children, on the other hand were circumcised on the eigth day after birth. Children were unable to have faith in Yaweh as infants, but the they were circumcised…

oakridgechurch.com/riggs/infantba.htm

“The baptizing of infants originated from the false idea that babies inherit the sin of Adam–termed, “original sin.” In defining different kinds of sins, the book, My Catholic Faith, on page 50 says, “Original sin is the kind of sin that we inherit from Adam.” There is nothing in the Bible which teaches that men inherit the sin of Adam, or that men are born in a state of sin. A person becomes a sinner when he commits sin, and he commits sin when he transgresses Gods’ law. “Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.” (1 John 3:4; see also James 1:13-15). A baby cannot be a sinner because he has not transgressed God’s law. The prophet Ezekiel said, “The soul that sinneth, the same shall die: the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, and the father shall not bear the iniquity of the son: the justice of the just shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.” (Ezek. 18:20; Catholic Confraternity Version). Hence, sin is not transferred from on generation or person to another. All men are sinners, not because they have inherited sin, but because “all have sinned” (Rom. 3:23).”

The NT speaks of baptism as the replacement for circumcision.

We see this in Col 2:11-12 which says:

“In him also you were circumcised with a spiritual circumcision, by putting off the body of the flesh in the circumcision of Christ when you were buried with him in baptism, you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.”

Since circumcision was performed on infants so also baptism is given to infants…children in the faith under the old law.

oakridgechurch.com/riggs/infantba.htm

“An infant is not a subject of the baptism ordained by God in His Holy Word. First, a candidate for baptism must be a hearer of the Word of God (Rom. 10:17; Acts 2:22, 37; 15:7). He must be taught and he must learn the will of God. Jesus said, “It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they all shall be taught of God.’ Everyone who has listened to the Father and has learned, comes to me…” (John 6:45). In the great commission, the Lord said, “Going therefore teach ye all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you…” (Matt. 28:19-20; Catholic Rheims Version). Furthermore, one must believe the gospel before being baptized. Again Christ said, “Go into the whole world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized shall be saved…” (Mark 16:16). Another prerequisite to baptism is repentance. Peter said, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins…” (Acts 2:38). A verbal confession of Christ is also necessary before baptism. “For if thou confess with thy mouth that Jesus is the Lord, and believe in thy heart that God has raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” (Rom. 10:9; see also Acts 8:37). Consequently, infants cannot be subjects for baptism because they cannot: (1) be taught of God, (2) believe, (3) repent, (4) confess. Those who baptize infants today are doing so against God’s will. John said, “Anyone who advances and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ, has not God; he who abides in the doctrine, he has both the Father and the Son.” (2 John 9).”

"The Catholic Catechism for Adults of page 71 says, “Do babies have to be baptized? Yes, because they have Original Sin in their souls, which means they have no grace.” Notwithstanding, infant baptism was not practiced by the apostles and early Christians. All of the cases of conversion in the book of Acts show that individuals heard the gospel, believed, and were baptized. There is not a single instance in the New Testament of infants being baptized, but rather a glaring lack of it. For example, Acts 8:12 says, “But when they believed Philip as he preached the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.”

 

[NaturalEnquirer]

No, you don’t. Protestants in the eyes of the Catholic church are not Christians but “Protesters”.

Why are the two mutually exclusive?

 

[Salamander]

If baptizism saves you… then what about the thief next to Jesus?

Since Jesus is “the Author and Finisher of our Faith”, He can command Salvation for anyone as he did the Thief on the Cross. Besides, the thief was not living under the New Covenant yet but the Old. Jesus’ blood saved him as did His power for the Woman with an Issue of Blood (healed her through faith), Lazarus (raised from the dead to prove that Faith in Him was necessary), and so on. God’s Son said He would and He did; enough said.

Luke 23:42-43
41 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.” 43 And Jesus said to him " Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise" HE said it, I believe it, that settles it…why question Jesus’ Power over death? The Thief was dying and believed. His Faith had sealed his fate. Our Faith, through obedience, seals ours.

The thief was not baptized. How then, if you must be baptized to enter Heaven could he have been in Paradise with Jesus?
I looked through many of the previous posts(not all) and found no reference to this. Just thought I would throw it out there to see the thoughts on it.

Answered! You’re welcome.

 

[Salamander]

Why are the two mutually exclusive?

The followers of the Way were called Christians at Antioch first, were they not? They were not called Jewish Christians were they?

 

[postwriter]

Baptismal words of Jesus Christ “you will be with me in paradise”…atleast for the thief. For us we need to be immersed in water for the remmission of sins. Acts 2:38. Acts 2:41. Acts 18:8. Mark 16:16.

 

[guanophore]

No, you don’t. Protestants in the eyes of the Catholic church are not Christians but “Protesters”.

Well, both things are true. Since there is only One Church, all who are members of the Body belong to it. Our separated brethren protest against the authority appointed by Christ. The fac that they are rebellious subjects of the Pontiff does not make them any less subjects, or any less Christian.

baptizing of infants originated from the false idea that babies inherit the sin of Adam–termed, “original sin.” In defining different kinds of sins, the book, My Catholic Faith, on page 50 says, “Original sin is the kind of sin that we inherit from Adam.” There is nothing in the Bible which teaches that men inherit the sin of Adam, or that men are born in a state of sin.

I see that you have a good more Bible study to do!

A person becomes a sinner when he commits sin, and he commits sin when he transgresses Gods’ law. “Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.” (1 John 3:4; see also James 1:13-15).

This is also true, but they are two different kinds of sin. The stain of original sin precipitates one toward personal sin.

A baby cannot be a sinner because he has not transgressed God’s law.

This is what the Catholic Church teaches with regard to personal sin. Babies are baptized to wash away the effects of original sin.

The prophet Ezekiel said, “The soul that sinneth, the same shall die: the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, and the father shall not bear the iniquity of the son: the justice of the just shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.” (Ezek. 18:20; Catholic Confraternity Version). Hence, sin is not transferred from on generation or person to another. All men are sinners, not because they have inherited sin, but because “all have sinned” (Rom. 3:23)."

Actually, you are taking rom 3:23 out of context. Not everyone does have personal sin.

oakridgechurch.com/riggs/infantba.htm

“An infant is not a subject of the baptism ordained by God in His Holy Word. First, a candidate for baptism must be a hearer of the Word of God (Rom. 10:17; Acts 2:22, 37; 15:7). He must be taught and he must learn the will of God. Jesus said, “It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they all shall be taught of God.’ Everyone who has listened to the Father and has learned, comes to me…” (John 6:45). In the great commission, the Lord said, “Going therefore teach ye all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you…” (Matt. 28:19-20; Catholic Rheims Version). Furthermore, one must believe the gospel before being baptized. Again Christ said, “Go into the whole world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized shall be saved…” (Mark 16:16). Another prerequisite to baptism is repentance. Peter said, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins…” (Acts 2:38). A verbal confession of Christ is also necessary before baptism. “For if thou confess with thy mouth that Jesus is the Lord, and believe in thy heart that God has raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” (Rom. 10:9; see also Acts 8:37). Consequently, infants cannot be subjects for baptism because they cannot: (1) be taught of God, (2) believe, (3) repent, (4) confess. Those who baptize infants today are doing so against God’s will. John said, “Anyone who advances and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ, has not God; he who abides in the doctrine, he has both the Father and the Son.” (2 John 9).”

This is a good summary of “believers baptism”. It is in agreement with the Catholic teaching as it applies to adults who are able to learn the faith.

"

Notwithstanding, infant baptism was not practiced by the apostles and early Christians.

Can you prove this?

All of the cases of conversion in the book of Acts show that individuals heard the gospel, believed, and were baptized. There is not a single instance in the New Testament of infants being baptized, but rather a glaring lack of it.

I suppose we read it differently.

For example, Acts 8:12 says, “But when they believed Philip as he preached the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.”

What harm do you think is caused by baptizing infants?