Baptism (immersed in water) is necessary

[Philthy]

I asked for your translation of John 3:5, and you gave this:

The water is the agent that brings about the first birth into the physical world. To be born again, into the Kingdom of God, which is now spiritual, the Holy Spirit is the agent, acting like water in regenerating the spiritual man.

I want your translation, not your interpretation. It is one sentence - not two, and you need to include the entire verse. Can you do it or not? I dont understand why this is so difficult for you - you have obviously spent a lot of time on it. If you wish to translate John 3:5&6 together, that is fine.

Here is the verse John 3:5 as translated by others:
ESV
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
KJV
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
DRB
Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Please - put your thoughts into a translation so I can see it for myself and compare with others, OK? Thanks.

 

[guanophore]

To help amplify the differences there is, to paraphrase your post . . . .“born from above by (water and spirit)”

Whereas, I believe-- regenerated (born) out of water (natural birth) AND pneuma (of spirit).

Can you see the difference in the two translations?

Also, these two types of birth are what Paul talks about in:

2Co 4:16 -
Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man (born of water) is decaying, yet our inner man (born of spirit) is being renewed day by day.

Eph 3:16 -
that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man,

The problem with this, Tabcom, in addition to the fact that it is contrary to what the Church has believed and taught since Jesus and the Apostles walked the earth, is that one cannot be “regenerated” by natural birth.

It makes no sense to say “regenerated by water” of a person who is still born, and it makes no sense to say “regenerated by spirit” for those who did not submit to baptismal water.

 

[tabcom]

one cannot be “regenerated” by natural birth.

Of course you are correct. Let me restate it this way . . . the outer man, that of the natural body, is generated by the mother’s water. The inner man, that is the spiritual man, is regenerated (born again) by way of the Holy Spirit.

 

[tabcom]

I asked for your translation of John 3:5

I’m sorry, I guess I really didn’t understand your question. I’ve provided a translation in post #246, and reprinted it in #324.

 

[tabcom]

Tertullian, AD 145 - 220

From “On Baptism”

newadvent.org/fathers/0321.htm

I’m afraid that doesn’t shed any light as to the discussion at this time. What I’m looking for is a Church Father commentary on John 3:5, with respects to the agent that brings about the ‘born again’. Could you, or anyone else provide a citation?

 

[tabcom]

The problem with this, Tabcom, in addition to the fact that it is contrary to what the Church has believed and taught since Jesus and the Apostles walked the earth

Let us pause . . . as we await a commentary from within the Church with respects to John 3:5.

 

[tabcom]

Your paraphrase of my previous statement is incorrect. Please don’t try to change the meanings of my words.

I’m sorry if I offended you. It was not my intent to change the meaning of your words. I was simply trying to clarify the opposing views. At this point, we are in disagreement.

The verses from 2CO and Eph are not applicable to baptism. They are, rather, referring to our ongoing growth and sanctification in Christ through the action of the Spirit which we have received through the Sacraments. One of them being water baptism.

No they are not applicable to water baptism. But, as I have attempted to stay faithful to throughout this thread, they are a testament to how the baptism of the Holy Spirit works. Hence, I believe they are linked to John 3:5.

 

[tabcom]

Reprinted from post 256:

Primarily we disagree because we know the Apostolic Teaching is that being born again of water and spirit happens at baptism.

By baptism, I’m assuming you mean water baptism. I believe that this statement is what is in question at this point of the discussion. Could someone please provide official Church documentation regarding it?

 

[tabcom]

Reprinted from post 211 . . .

Footnotes from New American Bible
United States Conference of Catholic Bishops

John 3:3
Jesus answered and said to him, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born 3 from above.”

3 [3] Born: see the note on John 1:13. From above: the Greek adverb anothen means both “from above” and “again.” Jesus means “from above” (see John 3:31) but Nicodemus misunderstands it as “again.” This misunderstanding serves as a springboard for further instruction.

John 1:13
8 who were born not by natural generation nor by human choice nor by a man’s decision but of God.

8 [13] Believers in Jesus become children of God not through any of the three natural causes mentioned but through God who is the immediate cause of the new spiritual life. Were born: the Greek verb can mean “begotten” (by a male) or “born” (from a female or of parents). The variant “he who was begotten,” asserting Jesus’ virginal conception, is weakly attested in Old Latin and Syriac versions.

 

[foundthelight]

Reprinted from post 211 . . .

Footnotes from New American Bible
United States Conference of Catholic Bishops

John 3:3
Jesus answered and said to him, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born 3 from above.”

3 [3] Born: see the note on John 1:13. From above: the Greek adverb anothen means both “from above” and “again.” Jesus means “from above” (see John 3:31) but Nicodemus misunderstands it as “again.” This misunderstanding serves as a springboard for further instruction.

John 1:13
8 who were born not by natural generation nor by human choice nor by a man’s decision but of God.

8 [13] Believers in Jesus become children of God not through any of the three natural causes mentioned but through God who is the immediate cause of the new spiritual life. Were born: the Greek verb can mean “begotten” (by a male) or “born” (from a female or of parents). The variant “he who was begotten,” asserting Jesus’ virginal conception, is weakly attested in Old Latin and Syriac versions.

And this was my response to you in post 226.

Oh, I am a Roman Catholic. I hold that the NAB and in particular its notes is a very sorry translation and resource. The Vatican uses the RSV-CE as its English Language Bible. Pick up some of the Holy Father’s books. They all use the RSV-CE.

Here is what the RSV-CE says;

Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

We are born anew through the Sacrament of Baptism.

We become Children of God by dying with Christ in our baptism and arising anew in life with Him. We do this in faith and obedience to His Word.

The NAB does not match any other translation I have.

NASB

N 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
JN 3:4 Nicodemus *said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?”
JN 3:5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

NIV

Jn 3:3 In reply Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.’”
Jn 3:4 “How can a man be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb to be born!”
Jn 3:5 Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.

Between this post and post #359 I have shown five translations that have been made with the highest standards of scholarship and none say “from above”.

As I said before the NAB is a sorry excuse for a Bible.

 

[foundthelight]

I’m afraid that doesn’t shed any light as to the discussion at this time. What I’m looking for is a Church Father commentary on John 3:5, with respects to the agent that brings about the ‘born again’. Could you, or anyone else provide a citation?

Are you being duplicitous?

You know as well as I that there were no “Bible Commentaries” in existence at that time. What we have are letters to the faithful (and sometimes not so faithful if the letters are correcting error).

We get our understanding of early belief from those letters. Tertullian’s “On Baptism” shows clearly that water is the agent. That water is the agent has been accepted from the earliest times. It was only the Reformers who, in their attempt to explain away clear scripture, have come up with such flights of fancy as what you are teaching.

 

[tabcom]

We get our understanding of early belief from those letters. Tertullian’s “On Baptism” shows clearly that water is the agent.

I’m afraid, it does not. What I’m looking for is any type of writings from early church fathers that comment on the conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus.

 

[tabcom]

The Vatican uses the RSV-CE as its English Language Bible

Can someone provide a footnote or annotation from this bible with respects to John 1:13 and John 3:3? John 3:3, from the orginal greek text:http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a352/tabcom/john33.jpg
Now the word in question is the greek word anothen. It is the same word Jesus used when He told Nicodemas, “Ye must be born again” (John 3:7)

Anothen – from above, from the first, anew, from the beginning, the top. “Again” or Anothen comes from the word ano meaning upward or on the top, above, high, or up.

The primary root of the word is anti meaning “in opposition to”, instead, contrast, or substitution.

The opposition to self in “believing” Christ is new birth or “born again”. When man opposes himself and trusts in another, it is because he cannot trust his own ability to “accept Christ”. He must be born with a birth from above, which is Christ in us (Col. 1:27) that opposes this outer man, which is “self”.

 

[foundthelight]

Can someone provide a footnote or annotation from this bible with respects to John 1:13 and John 3:3? John 3:3, from the orginal greek text:http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a352/tabcom/john33.jpg
Now the word in question is the greek word anothen. It is the same word Jesus used when He told Nicodemas, “Ye must be born again” (John 3:7)

Anothen – from above, from the first, anew, from the beginning, the top. “Again” or Anothen comes from the word ano meaning upward or on the top, above, high, or up.

The primary root of the word is anti meaning “in opposition to”, instead, contrast, or substitution.

The opposition to self in “believing” Christ is new birth or “born again”. When man opposes himself and trusts in another, it is because he cannot trust his own ability to “accept Christ”. He must be born with a birth from above, which is Christ in us (Col. 1:27) that opposes this outer man, which is “self”.

Which Greek text are you using?

Never mind, I found it.

 

[tabcom]

Which Greek text are you using?

interlinear Bible

 

[foundthelight]

interlinear Bible

Thanks! I just downloaded it.

 

[Philthy]

Tabcom: Here are some thoughts I summarized on this topic some time ago…

1) What is the context of John 3:5-7?

Chapter 1
Intro of characters:
a) Jesus Christ, the Word
b) John** the Baptist **
c) The first disciples
Chapter 2
a) The miracle at Cana …miracle involving…** water**
b)The cleansing of the Temple.…metaphor of water
Chapter 3
a) Nicodemus and “the discussion”
b) John 3:22 “After this, Jesus and his disciples went into the region of Judea, where he spent some time with them baptizing.”
Chapter 4
a) More talk about baptizing
b) The Samaritan woman near the…well “Give me this water”
OK. I see a lot of water/baptizing/miracles going on. A large part of the emphasis leading up to and following the discussion with Nicodemus is specifically baptismal. John 3:22 is extremely significant. In addition there are the other figurative representations of water involving miracles (cana), cleansing (the temple) and everlasting life (living water/samaritan woman). The context for baptism is undeniable.
**2) What are the possible interpretations of John 3:5-7? **
Ok, so the whole crux of the discussion centers around Nicodemus’ misunderstanding of the word “anothen” which can mean “again” OR “from above” - Jesus meant the latter, Nic thought he meant the former. Lets start with John 3:5 …“no one can enter the kingdom…without being born of water and Spirit”
I firmly agree with others that to insert the meaning of “born of woman/womb” without a single precedent either biblical or otherwise is the weakest of arguments. It is simply pulling a rabbit out of a hat, in my opinion. This one fact alone is very significant - you are not allowed to invent meanings! This is even more evident when all the other terms for natural birth which are used in the bible are considered - born of blood, etc. In addition, it is, technically, a redundancy on Christ’s part: once he uses the term “no one” we all know he’s talking about a person, ie some one who has already been born of a woman - there’s no logical need to add the “born of water” if it’s already been implicated in the term “no one”. Its like if I said to you, " I love my mother " You know we’re talking about a human woman without me saying so. The same is true in John 3:5 when He says “no one” - you already know he’s talking about some one who was born of a woman - there would be no reason to say it again. Now on to John 3:6-7. I have to tell you that you didn’t exactly explain what your brothers argument was regarding the verses - you just said that he “went to them”. Well I will explain it: He believes that the term “whatever is born of flesh is flesh” from John 3:6-7 is meant to relate to, and is equivalent to “born of water” from John3:5, and that “what is born of spirit is spirit” is meant to relate to “born of …the Spirit” in the same manner. This is certainly a reasonable interpretation, but it is not the only one. I happen to believe that Jesus was responding to the context of Nicodemus’ statement," How can a person once grown old be born again? Surely He cannot reenter his mother’s womb and be born again, can He?"John 3:4 When you focus on this context the intent of Jesus’ “whatever is born of flesh is flesh” becomes clearer. I think Jesus was trying to say that even if you could somehow re-enter the womb and be reborn of flesh (what happened to “born of water”!? - see how weak it is!) you remain flesh. That’s the point of “flesh is flesh” - its a response to Nicodemus’ silly question. Christ goes on to teach that it is only by being born of the spirit you become spiritual. Ahhh- the bible just aint so clear now is it?
http://www.catholic.com/library/Necessity_of_Baptism.asp
Wow that was a workout- and Im not done! I told you I struggled with this…

Con’d

 

[Philthy]

3) Are there any relevant “parallel” verses?

I thank Jay Damien for this next tidbit - review Titus 3:5: "Not because of any righteous deeds we had done, but because of His mercy He saved us through the bath of rebirth and renewal by the holy Spirit" Take a look at how this lines up with John 3:5

“…He saved through the bath of rebirth and renewal by the holy Spirit”
“no one can enter heaven w/o born of water and…the holy Spirit”

I really like putting these verses together like this. Since salvation is essentially equal to entering the Kingdom of God, being renewed by the holy Spirit becomes equal to being born of the holy Spirit. And guess what else happens logically? “born of water” becomes equal to the bath of rebirth! That doesn’t have ANYTHING to do with being born of woman. And who is going to deny what the “bath of rebirth” is especially when renewal by the Holy Spirit follows it? The house of cards is crumbling…this verse is speaking about BAPTISM.

4) What does the rest of the Gospel message say?

Do you know how many verses speak of the necessity of baptism? Lots. I’ll let others post more. Peter says to the Jews in Jerusalem when they ask him what they should do…“Repent and be baptized …for the forgiveness of sins” and also later says “whoever believes and is baptized will be saved” from Acts, and Christ himself said in Matt 28:19 “Go therefore and make disciples of every nation; baptizing them…” I bring this up because many Protestants try to fend off the above persuasive arguments by saying that the Gospel of John is all about faith. I agree, but baptism is a part of “the faith”, not simply a symbol as they might suppose. Always has been, and always will be.
And finally,…
**5) What do the “big boys” - aka ECFs - have to say? **

http://www.catholic.com/library/Nec…_of_Baptism.asp

Check out this link from the catholicanswers homepage. The final straw of “being subject to the presbyters” 1Peter 5:5-6 again lands on the side of Catholicism. John 3:5 is even referred to as pertaining to baptism as is the regenerative nature of baptism as the usual way for obtaining initiation into christianity through the “washing of ones sins”.

I hope this helps…

Phil

 

[tabcom]

Tabcom: Here are some thoughts I summarized on this topic some time ago…

Thank you for posting them. Please be patient with me as I read and digest it. I’d like to comment on it along the way.

 

[tabcom]

I firmly agree with others that to insert the meaning of “born of woman/womb” without a single precedent either biblical or otherwise is the weakest of arguments. It is simply pulling a rabbit out of a hat, in my opinion. This one fact alone is very significant - you are not allowed to invent meanings!

From ou.org (an orthodox Jewish website):

Judaism 101
A Glossary of Basic Jewish Terms and Concepts

“Mayim” - (m., pl. “maimot”); water; involved as a primary element on the Second and on the Third Days of Creation; when G-d separated the “upper” from the “lower” waters, and when G-d gathered them into one place, calling them “Yamim,” Seas.

A human being is delivered at birth in a bag of waters; some say that one never forgets this experience; to drink water is one of the primary needs of life.

/////////

The Sanhedrin equates a barren womb to the earth without water.

Babylonian Talmud: Tractate Sanhedrin

Folio 92a

R. Tabi said in R. Josia’s name: What is meant by, The grave; and the barren womb; and the earth that is **not filled by water:**47 now, what connection has the grave with the womb? But it is to teach thee: just as the womb receives and brings forth,48 so does the grave too receive and bring forth.49 Now, does this not furnish us with an a fortiori argument? If the womb, which receives in silence, yet brings forth amid great cries [of jubilation]; then the grave, which receives the dead amid cries [of grief], will much more so bring them forth amid great cries [of joy]! This refutes those who maintain that resurrection is not intimated in the Torah. [The] Tanna debe Eliyyahu [states]: The righteous, whom the Holy One, blessed be He, will resurrect, will not revert to dust,50 for it is said, And it shall come to pass. that he that is left in Zion and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:51 just as the Holy One endures for ever, so shall they endure for ever.

/////////

From the Dead Sea Scrolls, circa the 2nd Century B. C., God equates the Holy Spirit as the regenerate force that procreates a family . . .

Jubilees 1:23–25, it is stated by God: “I shall create for them a holy
spirit, and I shall purify them so that they will not turn away from fol-
lowing me from that day and forever.… And I shall be a father to them,
and they will be sons to me. And they will all be called ‘sons of the living
God.’”

From the Dead Sea Scrolls . .‘Rules of the Community’ (1QS 4:20–22)
God will refine, with his truth, all man’s deeds, and will purify for himself
the configuration of man, ripping out all spirit of deceit from the inner-
most part of his flesh, and cleansing him with the spirit of holiness from
every irreverent deed. **He will sprinkle over him the spirit of truth like lus-
tral water from all the abhorrences of deceit and from
the defilement of the unclean spirit **

to be continued . . .