Baptism in the Spirit and Contemplation

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DBT said:
The Saints teach “lights” like this can come fairly frequently once contemplation begins and sometimes I wonder if there truly is such a thing as purity of intention . . . or will notions of “self” always be intermingled in all that we do. Or maybe purity of heart is a relative thing. We are “pure” in the context of our level of understanding . . . in that present moment.

More things to ponder . . . 🙂
Dave
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I know conscience is a relative thing.
Someone’s conscience may be coarse; the other’s may be delicate.
Person A’s conscience is not equal to person B’s. When person A thinks he does something according to his conscience and be at peace, to person B, it could be a terrible behavior.
For example, person A may buy one movie ticket and wander around to see more than one movie in the cinema. He thinks it is OK because many others do the same. But person B will never do that. To person A that’s no big deal, to person B, it is a sin. So if we hear someone say he does things according to his conscience, it does not mean we can trust he is doing the right thing. Conscience needs to be informed and developed. The closer a person gets to God, the more sensitive and refined his conscience will become.

Purity of heart is the same way. Like conscience, it could be dealing with both outward behavior and inward motivation. Again, the closer one gets to God, the more one loves the Lord, the purer his heart may be. When we truly love Jesus, we will not want to do anything to displease or hurt Him. We will try to be careful about our thoughts and motivations also. I find the sorrowful mystery, the St. Bridget’s Prayer and the Station of the Cross all help in this area.
 
InLight:
I know conscience is a relative thing.
Someone’s conscience may be coarse; the other’s may be delicate.
Person A’s conscience is not equal to person B’s. When person A thinks he does something according to his conscience and be at peace, to person B, it could be a terrible behavior.

Purity of heart is the same way.
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When I thought about this, a scripture came to mind:

Mt. 6:22 The lamp of the body is the eye. If your eye is sound, your whole body will be filled with light;
but if your eye is bad, your whole body will be in darkness. And if the light in you is darkness, how great will the darkness be.

If the eye is bad, doesn’t it reveal the heart’s disposition? Those whose eye is bad, quickly diagnose everything they see as evil; whereas a clean heart puts a charitable interpretation on that which passes before them.

No wonder Jesus said that out of the heart the mouth speaks. It doesn’t require a special gift of discernment to understand the spiritual condition of another, but it does take a good deal of purification to recognize what lies within ourselves!
 
I think for whoever is familiar with Gospel teachings, it is actually not that hard for him to know right from wrong, including outward words, actions and inward thoughts or motivations.

What is not so easy is to have the total honesty and integrity to be true to self – not giving any excuse or justification for one’s own faults.

That’s where a good examination of conscience with the light from Holy Spirit helps.

I find to be totally and brutally honest with myself in front of God and in confession are the best ways toward holiness.
 
Inlight wrote:
I find to be totally and brutally honest with myself in front of God and in confession are the best ways toward holiness.
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Since the question of holiness has been raised, may I offer this little quote for us to ponder?
"We hear repeatedly that St. John of the Cross desired nothing for himself but to suffer and be despised. We want to know the reason for this love of suffering. Is it merely the loving remembrance of the path of suffering of our Lord on earth, a tender impulse to be humanly close to him by a life resembling
his? This does not seem to correspond to the lofty and strict spirituality of the mystical teacher. And in relation to the Man of Sorrows, it would almost seem that the victoriously enthroned king, the divine conqueror of sin, death and hell is forgotten. Did not Christ lead captivity captive? Has he not transported us into a kingdom of light and called us to be happy children of our
heavenly Father?
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"The sight of the world in which we live, the need and misery, and the abyss of human malice, again and again dampens jubilation over the victory of light. The world is still deluged by mire, and still only a small flock has escaped from it to the highest mountain peaks. The battle between Christ and the Antichrist is
not yet over. The followers of Christ have their place in this battle, and their chief weapon is the cross.
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"What does this mean? The burden of the cross that Christ assumed is that of corrupted human nature, with all its consequences in sin and suffering to which fallen humanity is subject. The meaning of the way of the cross is to carry
this burden out of the world. The restoration of freed humanity to the heart of the heavenly Father, taking on the status of a child, is the free gift of grace, of merciful love. But this may not occur at the expense of divine holiness and justice. The entire sum of human failures from the first Fall up to the Day of Judgment must be blotted out by a corresponding measure of expiation. The way
of the cross is this expiation. The triple collapse under the burden of the cross corresponds to the triple fall of humanity: the first sin, the rejection of the Savior by his chosen people, the falling away of those who bear the name Christian.
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"The Savior is not alone on the way of the cross. Not only are there adversaries around him who oppose him, but also people who succor him. The archetype of followers of Christ for all time is the Mother of God. Typical of those who submit to the suffering inflicted on them and experience his blessing by bearing it is Simon of Cyrene. Representative of those who love him and
yearn to serve the Lord is Veronica. Everyone who, in the course of time, has borne an onerous destiny in remembrance of the suffering Savior or who has freely taken up works of expiation has by doing so canceled some of the mighty load of human sin and helped the Lord carry his burden. Or rather, Christ the
head effects expiation in these members of His Mystical Body who put themselves, body and soul, at his disposal for carrying out his work of salvation. We can assume that the prospect of the faithful who would follow him on his way of the cross srengthened the Savior during his night on the Mount of Olives. And the
strength of these crossbearers helps him after each of his falls. The righteous under the Old Covenant accompany him on the stretch of the way from the first to the second collapse. The disciples, both men and women, who surrounded him during his earthly life, assist him on the second stretch. The lovers of the
cross whom he has awakened and will always continue to awaken anew in the changeable history of the stuggling church, these are his allies at the end of time. We, too, are called for that purpose.
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to be continued…
 
"Thus, when someone desires to suffer, it is not merely a pious reminder of the suffering of the Lord. Voluntary expiatory suffering is what truly and really unites one to the Lord ultimately. When it arises, it comes from an already existing relationship with Christ. For, by nature, a person flees from suffering. And the mania for suffering caused by a perverse lust for pain differs completely from the desire to suffer in expiation. Such lust is not a
spiritual striving, but a sensory longing no better than other sensory desires, in fact worse, because it is contrary to nature. Only someone whose spiritual eyes have been opened to the supernatural correlations of worldly events can desire suffering in expiation, and this is only possible for people in whom the
spirit of Christ dwells, who as members are given life by the Head, receive his power, his meaning and his direction. Conversely, works of expiation bind us closer to Christ, as every community that acts together on one task become more
and more closely knit and as the limbs of a body, working together organically, continually become more strongly one.
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“But because being one with Christ is our sanctity, and progressively becoming one with him our happiness on earth, the love of the cross in no way contradicts being a joyful child of God. Helping Christ carry his cross fills one with a strong and pure joy, and those who may and can do so, the builders of
God’s kingdom, are the most authentic children of God. And so those who have a predilection for the way of the cross by no means deny that Good Friday is past and that the work of salvation has been accomplished. Only those who are saved,
only children of grace, can in fact be bearers of Christ’s cross. Only in union with the divine Head does human suffering take on expiatory power. To suffer and be happy although suffering, to have one’s feet on the earth, to walk on the dirty and rough paths of this earth and yet to be enthroned with Christ at the
Father’s right hand, to laugh and cry with the children of this world and ceaselessly sing the praises of God with the choirs of angels—this is the life of the Christian until the morning of eternity breaks forth.”
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The Collected Works of Edith Stein IV: The Hidden Life. ICS Publications, 1992, pp. 91-93.
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Edith Stein is, of course, St Teresa Benedicta of the Cross, who died at Auschwitz and was canonized by the late John Paul II in 1997.

Happy New Year, everyone, and happy Feast of the Solemnity of the Mother of God, the Patroness of the United States.
 
Gabrielis, thanks for the valued (name removed by moderator)ut.
Purity of heart, holiness and contemplation are all related since union with God will not happen unless one is pure. Nothing impure may unite with the Pure. All these discussions are proper and worthwhile.

But what Edith Stein said are way ahead of me! To embrace and love suffering is indeed holy and heroic. I am still working on getting rid off all imperfections. When sufferings come, I have no problem to offer them up, but I won’t ask for any suffering. I also want to get out of my suffering. I like to stay in “a kingdom of light and be a happy child of our heavenly Father”
 
InLight247 said:
Gabrielis, thanks for the valued (name removed by moderator)ut.
Purity of heart, holiness and contemplation are all related since union with God will not happen unless one is pure. Nothing impure may unite with the Pure. All these discussions are proper and worthwhile.

I think you might have to rethink what ouhave writen. GO dalone is pure Moses David Gidion Paul St Therese all were cannonised God spoke through them used then was seen in them and yet they were not pure that is untill the Holy spirit cam upon them and they were made as the scriptures tell us “made as white as snow” I could do anything that I thought was Godly, forgive others who hurt me, denigh my flesh, give all to the poor, and live on bread alone.
Even Jesus asked the young man why he called Jesus " good master" Because NOTHING of this earth or carnal is pure. But it does not mean that God cannot be there, unite, for if that were true then how come Jesus was on this earth?
But non of this will help me unless it is God in me. Scripture tells us that “unless we become like a smashed vase then we are like the dung of a beast”, also "do not worry about the what words you will speak for the spirit OF GOD will speak through you. So this tells us in the other sence that when we do have God in us then we (as scripture tell us) are like the cheribim, the temple that God resides in. That is the reason why Scripture tells us that God made man kind to His own likeness.

How this all works is through God having divine “mercy” we call it forgiveness, unrelenting forgiveness we call it Love God’s love for His children. And this is the reason why we are to forgive 77 times 7
But God does reside in His people, every day in communion, and when we invite the Holy Spirit in.

God bless
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Godlovestrength said:
But God does reside in His people, every day in communion, and when we invite the Holy Spirit in.

God bless
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Oh, I understand and agree that all believers who are baptized have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit inside them. No question there.

I was talking about what St. Teresa and St. John taught, the different stages of contemplation. I am currently reading St. John. He emphasizes so much about getting rid of all the voluntary appetites that impede us from union with God.
 
I like to share with you the following from “The Ascent of Mount Carmel",
Book Two, Chapter 5
God sustains every soul and dwells in it substantially, even thought it may be that of the greatest sinner in the world. This union between God and creatures always exists………
In discussing union with God we are not discussing the substantial union that always exists, but the soul’s union with and transformation in God that does not always exist, except when there is likeness of love. We call it union of likeness; and the former, the essential or substantial union. The union of likeness is supernatural; the other natural…….
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Ridding oneself of what is repugnant to God’s will should be understood not only of one’s acts but of one’s habits as well. Not only must actual voluntary imperfections cease, but habitual imperfections must be annihilated too.
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………….the preparation for this union, as we said, is not an understanding by the soul, nor the taste, feeling or imagining of God or of any other object, but purity and love, the stripping off and perfect renunciation of all such experiences for God alone.
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Is it not unusuall that God will at times leave a human element in a person as He did with Paul and David Moses to remind them that they were human.
With David there was food he could not eat and he had a yearning for other women and yet God said David had a heart like Gods own, and Paul who complained about his humanness getting in the way. We are told that these ailments are left there to remind us of our freilty or to remind us not to become prideful.
And yet Jesus tells us we can be like Jesus if we try!!!

Godbless.
 
Hi InLight,

I’m guessing that with your new book, you are eyeball deep in study and meditation. 😛 I truly understand, for I just had three delivered today from Amazon: St. Faustina’s Diary, one of Scott Hahn’s books, and Fire Within. I had to order Fr. Dubay’s book so I could keep up with you and Dave (DBT) and follow what you are discussing!

So now that we are hibernating during winter with our treasures, there will be a lot of good teachings imparted to us. Maybe later on we can renew this thread after we gain more insights.

With every good wish for all of us to grow in knowledge and love of God. :love:

Carole
 
Joysong said:
Hi InLight,

I’m guessing that with your new book, you are eyeball deep in study and meditation. 😛 I truly understand, for I just had three delivered today from Amazon: St. Faustina’s Diary, one of Scott Hahn’s books, and Fire Within. I had to order Fr. Dubay’s book so I could keep up with you and Dave (DBT) and follow what you are discussing!

So now that we are hibernating during winter with our treasures, there will be a lot of good teachings imparted to us. Maybe later on we can renew this thread after we gain more insights.

With every good wish for all of us to grow in knowledge and love of God. :love:

Carole
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Dear Carole and all:

Happy New Year!

Yes, I am crawling with St. John, crawling like a snail. I am only on page 176, long way to go. I usually devour a new book, then go back to reread it. I simply have no ability to devour St. John of the Cross.

I am so glad you ordered “Fire Within” and Faustina’s Diary, and Scott Hahn. I love them all. I remember when I read St. Faustina, I could not stop even after midnight. It was the same way with “Fire Within”. But for St. John, sometimes I just cannot continue, I have to put it down for a while. That’s why I am in such a slow speed.
 
Dear InLight - thank you for directing me to this thread. I tried for days to get the link to work, and finally, tonight, it did! (No explanation – God’s sense of humor? Devil trying to get me to give up on finding it?)

What a wonderful thread; I’ve been reading the posts and don’t even know where to begin, except to thank everyone who has contributed so far. (Especially those kindred lovers of Hinds Feet on High Places 🙂 . Have you also read the sequel - Mountains of Spices?)

I’m not an expert in much of anything, but I’ve always thought that what we Catholics call Baptism in the Spirit is akin to what our Protestant brethren would call accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior. I believe the experience may be the same, and we just use different terminology. For me, after going through a Life in the Spirit Seminar, I didn’t have any major experience on the night of the Baptism in the Spirit (other than that there was major blizzard :eek: , the bus wasn’t running, and after not even seeing a car pass for nearly an hour, a man – angel ? – pulled up, offered me a ride which I accepted, and I got to my destination!) but I had already had a profound conversion experience a number of years before.

I was involved in prayer meetings for a few years, but they started to attract me less and less. I had a longing for greater depth, but did not feel that the Charismatic Renewal was where I was going to find it. Don’t get me wrong – despite the very, very many good and holy people I encountered, I felt that I met more who were having a “first-timer” type of experience and who were stuck there.

Sure it’s great to pray and praise and sing the Lord’s praises, but I had a greater need to just sit down with the One I love. (I guess it must be like when a married couple - I’m single - host a dinner or party. It’s enjoyable. They are with friends. They love their friends. But there’s a time for the friends and guests to go home so the couple can have alone time together.)

Not ever being one to love “labels”, I guess I never really gave it much thought as to levels of prayer that I may have been moving through. I know that at one point, many years ago, I tried reading John of the Cross, but there was absolutely no way I was near ready for it then.

Over the years, I have had those “mountain top” experiences that I rarely share with anyone other than my SD… prayer moments so intimate between my Divine Spouse and me that it’s like telling a doctor the most intimate of things.

A few years ago, my health took a nosedive, which was one of the things which lead to a Dark Night. I don’t know how Mother Teresa held on as long as she did. Mine was about two years, although it had started brewing for quite a while before that. In this past 14 months that I’ve had to spend in a nursing home interspersed with 7 hospitalizations, I hit spiritual rock bottom. All I can say is - if not being able to sense God’s presence in any way… to feel abandoned and rejected by God… is how those in hell feel, then any pain of fire would be a blessing from God to distract from the pain of feeling God’s absence.

During my last hospitalization which began in mid-September and lasted for 7 weeks, He who knows the heart so well, swooped down and came to my rescue. Without going into details, He came to me in a dream with a message I knew was from Him and would be meaningless to anyone else. I awoke immediately and was so changed that from that moment on, nurses would come into my room, look at me as though startled, and ask me what had happened… I looked changed… I wasn’t the same patient they had admitted three weeks earlier… I was “glowing”… etc.

When I returned to the nursing home, the nurses here have said the same thing.

All I have been able to tell them is the absolute truth: Any change they see is only God’s grace.

If all this were not enough, it was as though spiritual “arteries” long clogged were opened again, and since mid-October our good and gracious God has allowed me to write 19 new songs and about 15 new poems. (I write.)

Spiritually, I have been doing a lot of reading… have started to make a second attempt at John of the Cross… am finding “buried treasure” in reading the Letters of my spiritual father St. Paul of the Cross… reading St. Faustina’s Diary, etc. Although I think I can see spiritual growth in me, as I said before, I’ve never liked to label anything, so I can’t identify what “level” I’m at. I seem to be having the new experience of somehow being aware of being in God’s presence without feeling anything.

!!! POST TOO LONG – WILL CONTINUE IN NEXT POST !!! 😊
 
!!! POST TOO LONG – CONTINUED FROM LAST POST !!! 😊
One of the posts to this thread… I can’t remember now which page it’s on or who posted it… mentioned union with God. I also have wondered exactly what it is… what does it feel like… how do you know if you’ve achieved it… etc. Well, I still don’t have any answers, but I find myself desiring it. I laugh at myself because I seem to desire something I can’t even understand. But the desire is unmistakable.

As I write here about desires, I remember this beautiful section of Fr. Dubay’s *ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC *book, And You Are Christ’s, where he calls each of us “incarnate thirsts” and that everything we have ever longed for, hungered for, even as simple as a glass of water, is only a sign of our deepest hunger and longing for God, and which nothing which is not God will ever fill.

I truthfully haven’t yet progressed too far with St. John of the Cross, and so when I read the following quote posted above:
Stanzas of the soul that suffers with longing to see God.
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I live, but not in myself,
and I have such hope
that I die because I do not die.
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  1. I no longer live within myself
    and I cannot live without God,
    for having neither him nor myself
    what will life be?
    It will be a thousand deaths,
    longing for my true life
    and dying because I do not die.
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  1. This life that I live
    is no life at all,
    and so I die continually
    until I live with you;
    hear me, my God:
    I do not desire this life,
    I am dying because I do not die.
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I was so struck, because it seems to say what I’ve been feeling for weeks now. I so desire to be with the Lord, to see Him face to face, that there is a longing for death which is like nothing I’ve ever felt before. It’s not like that sad, depressing wanting to die which can be experienced with depression, or after losing a loved one. I don’t even want to die… not yet, anyway. Yet the longing to be with Him is so intense that I can’t help but say, “How long, O Lord? How long?”

Gosh, I’ve gone on FAR too long. I guess I’ll just sum up by saying that God knows each one of us so much better than we can ever know ourselves. He knows the exact path we need to travel to get to the mountaintop, and He will lead us along that path. Rather than fret about what to call it, or what stage we are at, or even what we are experiencing along the way, we should all just lovingly and trustfully place ourselves into His hands. If we do this, He will guide us. He will pick us up when we fall. He will carry us across the chasms over which we are not yet ready to leap, for He is our Shepherd, the One with Hind’s Feet, and our feet are still crippled. And one day, no matter what our names have been, like Much-Afraid we will be given a new name which will reflect the Grace and Glory which will shine on our faces as we gaze upon Him face to Face.

“I wish that my heart could beat, that I could live and breathe only for Jesus, I wish that my tongue could utter no other name than that of Jesus; that my eye could see only Jesus; that my pen could write only about Jesus, and that my thoughts could soar to nothing but Jesus. I have often wondered where on earth there might be something on which I could center my love. But neither on earth nor in heaven do I find any such thing but only my beloved Jesus… I am the fruit of your passion, Jesus, born of your wounds. O Jesus, seek me in love; I no longer possess anything; you have stolen my heart…” - St. Gemma Galgani
 
Dear Rose, thank you so much for your sharing. My heart goes to you. I hope you have all the blessings from our Lord and be in good health this New Year. It is nice to meet like-minded people with similar prayer experiences. How wonderful it is to share our hearts toward the Beloved by worshiping Him in spirit and in truth.

Your sharing reminds me back in 1998 when I went through a period of desolation, I received the word “solace” in my dream. English is my second language, at the time I was not familiar with this word. I checked into dictionary for the meaning and realized God meant to give me comfort. I have not thought about that experience for long until I read what you shared.

You mentioned Fr. Dubay. I don’t know if you have read “Fire Within”. That book helped me assess where I possibly am on the journey. But, I agree that the label of prayer levels does not matter that much. Wherever I am, I have a long way to go. Working toward holiness has been my primary goal and continue to be. I figured if I do my best to reach His standard of purity, the blessings of union, any level His majesty sees appropriate, will fall into place according to His will and grace.

I have great expectation for the year of 2008. There is a firm resolution in my heart to glorify my Lord in every way of my life. My prayers go to all CAF members for God’s abundant blessings, and growth in spirituality.
 
Hello, Rose, and welcome aboard!

Especially, welcome to this thread where many wonderful sharings have lifted us all into heavenly realms. :heaven:

I am the one who mentioned Hind’s Feet, and yes, I do have Mountains of Spices, but it did not have as much effect on me, spiritually, as the former. What is so interesting to me is that Hannah Hurnard shared her life experiences in some of her other books, though not in parable form as this was. I could pick up just about where she experienced the chapter mentioned in Hind’s Feet. What an amazing woman of deep faith!

St. Gemma’s Life is so special, and I have read her biography by her spiritual director. I also read the life of her heavenly friend, St. Gabriel of the Sorrowful Mother, and have quoted his “Resolutions” somewhere here on the forum. He reminds me so much of St. Therese with his simplicity in living them with absolute steadfastness, though at first glance they seem rather easy.

Your post did not clarify whether you are now home or in the nursing facility. I hope your health has improved greatly, for sickness can be one of the worst trials we go through. Maybe you might share your poems with us in InLight’s thread, Love’s Desires.

Hope to see you here again soon,

Carole
 
I so desire to be with the Lord, to see Him face to face, that there is a longing for death which is like nothing I’ve ever felt before. It’s not like that sad, depressing wanting to die which can be experienced with depression, or after losing a loved one. I don’t even want to die… not yet, anyway. Yet the longing to be with Him is so intense that I can’t help but say, “How long, O Lord? How long?”
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Welcome, GemmaRose. I myself am a newcomer to CAF, predating you by mere days, and it was on this thread that I first posted.

A number of us can identify with what you say above. What you quoted from St John of the Cross was from my post in response to Tim who said very much what you say here about the longing for death as a positive thing, not born of depression or despair. The world, of course, cannot understand this. In fact even most Christians cannot understand it, or at least not yet. That one can even have this desire, I think, indicates having arrived at a certain detachment from this temporal life, which is a theme that runs continually through the writings of St John of the Cross, and indeed through the writings of all the mystics, each in their various ways. Even the prayer “Hail, Holy Queen,” so familiar to us all, and which we pray after every Rosary, has this line in it: “…to thee do we send up our sighs, poor banished children of Eve, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears. Turn then, O most gracious Virgn Mary, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus.” Is this not that very same longing being expressed?

The oft-quoted C. S. Lewis speaks too of this longing, which he calls “the inconsolable longing” or the sehnsucht and which is in everyone, everyone, whether they are believers or not, and whether or not they are aware of it. It is, in the world, often given such names as nostalgia. But it is in fact the space in every human being which only God can fill, and which can never be fully satisfied here. St Augustine spoke of it too: “Thou hast made us for Thyself, and our heart shall not rest until it rests in Thee.” And St Augustine’s prayer is in turn only an echo of Psalm 139: “Where can I run from Your love? If I climb to the heavens You are there, if I fly to the sunrise or sail beyond the see, You would still be there.” And, of course, this inconsolable longing is probably best expressed in The Song of Songs, which, coming full circle, is largely the inspiration for The Dark Night of the Soul.

So take heart, this is a great gift: if one desires death in order to attain full union with God, death indeed loses its sting, its victory. How can anyone who desires death for this reason continue to fear it?

Meanwhile we need only endure, but His love and His grace will always be sufficient for us.
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You will not take from me, my God, what you once gave me in your only Son, Jesus Christ, in whom you gave me all I desire. Hence I rejoice that if I wait for you, you will not delay.

With what procrastinations do you wait, since from this very moment you can love God in your heart?

Mine are the heavens and mine is the earth. Mine are the nations, the just are mine, and mine the sinners. The angels are mine, and the Mother of God, and all things are mine; and God himself is mine and for me, because Christ is mine and all for me. What do you ask, then, and seek, my soul? Yours is all of this, and all is for you. Do not engage yourself in something less or pay heed to the crumbs that fall from your Father's table. Go forth and exult in your Glory! Hide yourself in it and rejoice, and you will obtain the supplications of your heart. 

---St John of the Cross, "Prayer of a Soul Taken with Love"
 
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