Baptism in the spirit

Status
Not open for further replies.
L

Len_Rice

Guest
Where does the church stand regarding Charismatic groups that embrace baptism in the spirit. Are the gifts of the Holy Spirit infused during such an experience? Is the gift of tongues infused contemplation or just a deeper meditative capacity? Are groups such as People of Praise who have an Ecumenical side encouraged or discouraged by the church?
 
Baptism in the Spirit is an outpouring of grace by the Holy Spirit. The gifts of the Spirit are given at Baptism, NOT during the “baptism in the Spirit.” However, sometimes it takes a special religious experience to help us use these gifts. Analogy: Our soul is like a glass of milk. Baptism pours gifts into it, the way you would pour chocolate syrup in milk. When you pour syrup in milk, though, the syrup sits at the bottom and the color/taste of the milk does not change. Baptism in the Spirit is like taking a big spoon and stirring up the graces in our souls, the way you would stir up chocolate to make the milk taste sweeter. Baptism in the Spirit is a spiritual experience which enables a person to better serve the Body of Christ. The spiritual gifts, e.g. tongues, prophecy, administration, teaching, etc., are all meant for the building up of the Church. We have received these gifts at Baptism, but we rely on God to give us the grace to make them active in our lives. Baptism in the Spirit is merely a spiritual renewal in which we ask the Holy Spirit to give us a special outpouring of Himself and use us as greater instruments to build up the Church.

Yes, Charismatics are people of praise. Charismatic prayer is completely centered around praise of God. However, I would like to note that all Catholics should have this same attitude of praise. The Catholic Church is centered around the Eucharist, which means thanksgiving, and so we should place more emphasis on praising/worshipping God than on petitions. Afterall, our Savior died and rose for us, and then gave us His true Body and Blood to eat. Praise the Lord!
 
My take is that Baptism in the Spirit is something that all adult Catholics have experienced. We call it Confirmation.

The “baptism in the spirit” given in charismatic circles is, to me, similar to the sprinkling rite at mass. It isn’t the sacrament, but it’s a rite designed to reinvigorate the grace conferred by the sacrament.
 
King’s X-fan
  • My take is that Baptism in the Spirit is something that all adult Catholics have experienced. We call it Confirmation.*
Hmmm … An infant can receive all three of the Sacraments of Initiation in the Catholic Church, i.e. Baptism, Confirmation, and Eucharist (some Eastern Rite Catholics give all three Sacraments of Initiation to infants, as do some of the Spanish of the Latin Rite).

Are the infants that receive the Sacrament of Confirmation “charismatic” infants? No. There is a difference between receiving the Sacrament of Confirmation and the Baptism of the Spirit.

Confirmation is a Sacrament that bestows Sacramental graces unique to this Sacrament. The Baptism of the Spirit is a great gift of grace from God, but it is not a Sacrament. It is possible to have the Baptism of the Spirit before one receives the Sacrament of Baptism, as we see in the household of Cornelius in Acts 10: 44-48.

Created grace exists in both act and potency. The sanctifying gifts of the Holy Spirit and the charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit can be likened to seeds that have been planted, but that have not yet grown into a fruit bearing plants. Created grace needs to move from potency into act, and it is God that gives the growth.

I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth.
1 Cor 3:6
 
Charismatic Catholics are a growing lay apostolate within the Catholic Church, and most Charismatic Catholic groups are in obedience to Rome, operating with the approval of the Vatican and the Pope. The Catholic Charismatic Renewal presents no new doctrine. Instead, members emphasize the teachings of the Catholic Church and often focus on ecumenical outreach, as well as maintaining some amazing missionary movements.

For more info, visit this site. iccrs.org/

Some charismatics function within their parish. Other, in addition to living out a faith life in their parishes, have formed covenant communities. For more info on that, go here.

catholicfraternity.net/

There are also many Charistmatic communities in the USA, not just in Europe. I believe the Catholic Charismatic Confraternity has upwards of 68 communities worldwide now.

Pope John Paul II on the Charismatic Movement “From the very beginning of my ministry as the Successor of Peter, I have considered the movement as a great spiritual resource for the church…Within the Charismatic Renewal, the Catholic Fraternity has a specific mission, recognized by the Holy See. One of the objectives stated in your statutes is to safeguard the Catholic identity of the charismatic communities and to encourage them always to maintain a close link with the Bishops and the Roman Pontiff.”

There are, of course, always nutcase groups who go off and do weird stuff and make a bad name for their groups, and charismatics have had their share of flakes.

I’d invite anyone who wants more info to pursue these links or email me directly. I am a member of a covenant Catholic Charismatic community in Dallas. Here’s our website:

www.lumen2000.com
 
Baptism in the Spirit is confirmation… not this stuff that the Charismatics are putting forth…
 
What “stuff” do you refer to? I agree that our Baptism in the Holy Spirit comes with the Sacraments, both with Baptism and deepened with Confirmation.
 
James_2:24:
Baptism in the Spirit is confirmation… not this stuff that the Charismatics are putting forth…
Rather a strident response, my friend 😦 .

Baptism in the Spirit has always had its problems as an acceptable phrase, and I agree that there could be a better phrasing of what is being described. Better to remove a reference to a Sacrament.

I personally like the analogy of the glass of milk listed in this thread, and I would suggest as a phrase instead of Baptism in the Spirit to try Release of the Gifts of the Spirit.

The stuff you are referring to - if I may be so bold as to assume your meaning - are things that have existed at various times throughout the history of the Church. The fact that the Charismatics are expecting to see all these phenomena lived out in their lives should be welcomed as a sign of their reliance on God.

THIS DOES NOT MEAN those not participating in the Charismatic Renewal are NOT relying on God. I know at times there have been some Charismatics who act as though this were true.

What God seems to be doing in the Charismatic Movement is to be drawing people into a deeper holiness in their lives.

I think we see this in a number of movements in the Church today: Eucharistic Adoration is on the rise; Marian devotions are surging in many areas; the Divine Mercy Chaplet is producing great fruit… how many more can be listed? Just look at the interest in these forums!!

A wise mentor (now a Monsignor) friend of mine once said that if there is any movement that is drawing people closer to God, we (he was speaking to priests) must be there with them to support them. Shutting out a movement of the Spirit can - no, would be - a dangerous thing.

The stuff may seem unpalatable to you, but don’t dismiss it out-of-hand, please.
 
The Charismatic Movement is just Montanism revisited.

As far as the movement originating from Apostolic times…that’s a stretch. Granted, the Bible and the early Christians noted a gift of the Holy Spirit…known as “speaking in tongues.”

I would say the Charismatic Movement…or, as I call it – Neo-Montanism…was founded centuries and centuries later.

I do know that Paul preached…

"Tongues-speaking is only edifying in the Church if it is interpreted. “But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the Church.” First Corinthians 14:5, 27, 28

History shows that glossolalia (tongue speaking itself) did occur within the early Church…and I also do know the early fathers were incredibly divided. Chrysostom disapproved and Augustine was mixed…Ignatius believed in speaking in tongues, but believed also in its limited usage. The Montanist movement (which holds great similarities with the Charismatic Movement) of the late second century included prophetesses, speaking in tongues, etc… was declared heretical by 99% of the church (even though, Tertullian loved the movement)…it got so bad that excommunication became involved (Serapion, bishop of Antioch spoke out against it greatly). The Canon of Moratori (the oldest list of authorized New Testament books…written in Rome circa 170 AD) mentions Montanism among heresies and rejects its teachings and writings. Speaking in tongues was extremely rare within the church after this time.

The fact is…just as cancer has signs…so does this movement.

P.S. I believe it was Saint Epiphanius of Cyprus who wrote in “Panarion” a whole chapter on Montanism. He stated that Montanists receive the Bible in full… the Trinity…the resurrection of the dead…etc…but they mislead in their teachings on gifts.

The only reason the Charistmatic Movement is being allowed right now…is to attract Protestants to the faith.

For an additional good read…

unitypublishing.com/NewReligiousMovements/CharismaticMovement1.html
 
As far as guidelines…in regards to glossolalia…Paul gave them.

The following is also a good read…

“Paul addresses the matter of ‘speaking in tongues’ as a possible problem in the church at Corinth. **Although he acknowledges that the ability to speak in ‘various kinds of tongues’ and the ability to interpret these tongues are ‘spiritual gifts’ (1 Cor. 12:10), he is aware not all are to speak in tongues (1 Cor. 12:30), and advises his readers to seek ‘the higher gifts’ (1 Cor. 12:31). In 1 Corinthians 13, he makes it clear that he thinks of love as the greatest spiritual gift. Love is contrasted with speaking ‘in the tongues of men and of angels’ (1 Cor. 13:1); love endures, while tongues will cease (v. 8).” **

"In 1 Corinthians 14, Paul gives a number of directions about the use of glossolalia. **Speaking in tongues is not helpful to the community, he says, because it is incomprehensible (14:2). Only when there is interpretation is there edification (v. 5). ** When the community convenes, no more than three should speak in tongues, each in turn, and there must be an interpretation (v. 27). Paul feels that uncontrolled and uninterpreted speaking in tongues does not edify the community and that it gives outsiders the impression that believers are mad (v. 23). Yet, he allows this activity to take place, so long as it is done in orderly fashion and is accompanied by interpretation."

“Acts 2 contains a narrative about the events of the first Pentecost after Easter. On that day, the apostles gathered together, and, after hearing a sound like wind and seeing tongues like fire, they began ‘to speak in other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance’ (Acts 2:4). The author of Acts goes on to list various nationalities of persons who heard the apostles speak, all hearing in their own languages. Although the story may suggest that the apostles spoke an incomprehensible language (v. 13), the truth is that they were speaking known foreign languages.”
 
I heard an oblique reference to a number of Charismatic Instances occurring I believe in 1968, shortly after the closing of Vatican II. It was either on a radio or taped talk, so I couldn’t get specifics, but it appeared to suggest a renewal.

Anyone know anything significant getting started at about that time?

Thanks,

CARose
 
40.png
CARose:
I heard an oblique reference to a number of Charismatic Instances occurring I believe in 1968, shortly after the closing of Vatican II. It was either on a radio or taped talk, so I couldn’t get specifics, but it appeared to suggest a renewal.

Anyone know anything significant getting started at about that time?

Thanks,

CARose
unitypublishing.com/NewReligiousMovements/CharismaticMovement1.html
 
I post here a thread reply from another place on this forum.

Charismatic Catholics are a growing lay apostolate within the Catholic Church, and most Charismatic Catholic groups are in total obedience to Rome, operating with the official approval of the Vatican and the Pope. The Catholic Charismatic Renewal presents no new doctrine. Instead, members emphasize the teachings of the Catholic Church and often focus on ecumenical outreach, as well as maintaining some amazing missionary movements. Charismatics have a calling to the gifts and fruits of the Holy Spirit. Some charismatics function within their parish. Others, in addition to living out a faith life in their parishes, have formed covenant communities. For more info, go here.

catholicfraternity.net/
iccrs.org/

There are also many Charistmatic communities in the USA, not just in Europe. I believe the Catholic Charismatic Confraternity has upwards of 68 communities worldwide now. They meet in Rome every other year and often are blessed with a meeting with Our Holy Father, who has endorsed this movement. His personal chaplain, Fr. Cantamalessa, often preaches to the leaders of the Charismatic groups.

There are, of course, always nutcases who go off and do weird stuff and make a bad name for their groups, and charismatics have had their share of flakes. Yet 99% of the Charismatics I am acquainted with are considerably MORE orthodox and Catholic than your average Joe Catholic in the Pew. They often go to Daily Mass, participate in Eucharistic Adoration, protest at Abortion clinics, do loads of social justice outreaches, and have deep prayer lives.

I am a member of a covenant Catholic Charismatic Covenant Community in Dallas. We (our community) go to Mass in our own parishes, and then gather weekly in addition for praise, prayer, and teachings. Prayer meetings usually consist of about 45 minutes of praise and worship music, several teachings and word gifts, and a half hour of prayer as a group. We are extremely active in living out our faith. We are connected through small groups know as Shared Life Clusters (or SLCs) which are the vehicle by which we remain connected and can care for one another. Together we study the Catechism, the Scriptures, and the depths of our Faith in many ways . We also have a number of outreach ministries including a school which the local bishop has called “The most Catholic of our Diocesan schools.” We are the only school which offers daily Mass, regular Eucharistic Adoration, Rosaries, etc. Here’s our Communty website:

www.lumen2000.com

Let us be charitable in our discussions here, and always remember that just because a certain lay apostolate does not appeal to you personally, that does not invalidate the apostolate for others. What the Pope has approved, I would be VERY cautious in condemning. 👍
 
Regarding the repeated charge that Charismatics are Montanists, I must respectfully disagree. :cool: A review of the history of the two groups will prove that the similarities claimed are simply not there.

We Charismatics are unlike Montanists in many ways. We are not ascetics as they were, we do not generally live as hermits, which they did, we do not believe we have “superior knowledge” that is “higher” than the teachings of the Church, as they did, and perhaps most importantly, we are in FULL obedience with the Holy See. They were not. They were condemned as heretics, whereas we have the approval and blessing of the Vatican.

Furthermore, we are not anti-intellectuals at ALL. Fr. Paul Hinnebusch, O.P., was a member of our community: I challenge you to find anything the least bit unorthodox or anti-intellectual about that holy man, now deceased. frpaulhinnebusch.org/

Our church could use a thousand more priests like him.
God bless you all.
 
I found something very interesting on this subject in the book,“Be Holy”, the talks from the worldwide retreat for priests given in Rome In 1984. Of the retreat, Pope John Paul II later said, “This retreat was very important for the whole church.” In the talk, given before the Pope and priests from all over the world, Cardinal Suenens said speaking of the “baptism in the Holy Spirit”, though of the term, itself, he said “the term causes too much confusion.”

"It is not a second baptism, some new sacramental grace, but rather the renewing of those sacramental graces of Baptism, Confirmation and priestly Ordination that have already made the Holy Spirit present within us. This is a living out of St. Paul’s words to Timothy: “Stir into flame the gift of God bestowed when my hands were laid on you” (2Tim. 1:6). This stirring into flame is ours to be experienced. The promises of Christ to be with us always, to leave us His Peace, to give us a joy no one can take away, are all promises meant to be experienced. I am daring enough to say I have seen that the Lord keeps His promises.:

To this experience each and every one of us is invited and all we have to do is open ourselves, do what is needed to prepare, and then accept the grace of Pentecost.

In Christ’s own name, I extend this invitation to all of you. Experience the full wonder of Christian living that is yours when your Baptism, your Confirmation and your Priesthood are renewed through the grace of Pentecost. I remember hearing Pope John Paul II say on one of his trips, “France, what have you done with your Baptism?” And on another, he cried out, “Poland, you need a new Confirmation so that you can cope with your difficulties.” He was expressing our need for the grace of Pentecost, a grace that is there for those open to receiving it.

Further on he says, “The Spirit can lead us to that special freedom that I am bold enough to talk about as the spontaneity of praying in tongues. This is not some foreign language, but a gift of prayer that carries us to a depth of adoration where articulate words are no longer needed, and we burst forth voicing wordless praise. Through the Spirit, I believe that this gift is available to all who show a willingness by at least opening their mouths.”

So sayeth Leon Joseph Cardinal Suenens.
 
Len Rice:
Where does the church stand regarding Charismatic groups that embrace baptism in the spirit. Are the gifts of the Holy Spirit infused during such an experience? Is the gift of tongues infused contemplation or just a deeper meditative capacity? Are groups such as People of Praise who have an Ecumenical side encouraged or discouraged by the church?
The Holy Ghost does not give “gifts of the Holy Ghost” outside the Church. Fr. Hardon notes the “tongues” of these heretics are NOT from God but from the devil. Of course, God does give actual graces in order to lead to conversion.
 
40.png
Trad_Catholic:
The Holy Ghost does not give “gifts of the Holy Ghost” outside the Church. Fr. Hardon notes the “tongues” of these heretics are NOT from God but from the devil. Of course, God does give actual graces in order to lead to conversion.
I am curious as to how the Charismatic Renewal, an approved lay apostolate of the Church, which operates with the Pope’s blessing, would be considered “outside” the Church? :confused: How are we heretics when we teach NO new doctrines and are in full obedience with the Holy See? I must assume that you are speaking of some OTHER charismatic group than those of us in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal.

I am not familiar with Fr. Hardon, but he may have encountered a fringe group or a group that DOES operate outside the boundaries of the Church. Not all charismatics are alike, just as not all Irish people or all people who play piano are alike. Many of us are devout and obedient Catholics with a fervent desire to serve the Lord Jesus Christ INSIDE of the Catholic Church. Please, be charitable here. Be careful about painting us all into the stereotype corner. 😉
 
40.png
Makerteacher:
I am curious as to how the Charismatic Renewal, an approved lay apostolate of the Church, which operates with the Pope’s blessing, would be considered “outside” the Church?
If any on knows of any evidence that shows this apostolate to be outside of the church (e.i. church documents, encyclicals, etc.), I would be interested in knowing what it is. Most of the “evidence” presented so far either targets specific abuses (some of which need to be addressed) or shotguns the whole movement with name-calling (heretics). Was Fr. Hardon commisioned by the Vatican to address this issue and under what authority is he making such a broad statement? Marketeacher twice quoted the Holy Father. It sure seems like this is a legitimate apostolate.

Len Rice - I heard the growing up as “baptism in the holy spirit as evidenced by speaking in tongues.” It was the last part I always had a problem with; the equation of tongues with the Holy Spirit. Praise God that the Catholic Church (even the charismatics) do not go this far.
 
I know only of the documents that show it IS approved. There are two major movements with the Catholic Chismatic Community: ICCRS and CFCC. Both are approved lay apostolates. Both function in full obedience to the Holy See.

This links you to the International Catholic Charismatic Renewal Services (ICCRS) site, with documentation of their relationship with the Vatican, ICCRS is a JURIDICAL PERSONALITY “ad instar”, i.e. corresponding to a PRIVATE ASSOCIATION OF THE FAITHFUL (Cf., CC 321-329,116, §2).

iccrs.org/statutes.htm

Here is the site for the CFCC, also known as the CCCF, which is the branch in which I function as a member of a Covenant Community.

catholicfraternity.net/gen2004.html#_1eng

"Keeping also in mind that on 30 November 1990 the Pontifical Council for the Laity granted recognition to the Catholic Fraternity of Charismatic Covenant Communities and Fellowships, as a private association of the faithful, and in the hope that there will be a fruitful relationship of dialogue and cooperation between this association and ICCRS (Decree, Pontificium Consilium Pro Laicis 1565/93/AIC-73).

“In its spirit of service ICCRS will maintain a relationship of dialogue and collaboration with the “Catholic Fraternity of Covenant Communities”, established as a Private Association of the Faithful by the Holy See” (Art. 9, n. 6).

Hope that is helpful. 👍 God bless you all!
 
From the website give catholicfraternity.net/background.html (bolding mine)

The Catholic Fraternity is a private association of Christian faithful of pontifical right. It is formally recognized by the Holy Father and has ongoing relationship with Rome through the Pontifical Council for the Laity.** While it has this link to Rome, it has its own integrity as an international body and exists with its own President (Mr. Brian Smith, Brisbane, Australia), a Council and Executive. It also has its own Spiritual Adviser (Bishop Albert de Monleon, Meaux, France). **
Does no one else find this slightly disturbing?

Or this…
The Fraternity was brought into being by an association of communities called the International Brotherhood of Communities (IBOC). The IBOC, an ecumenical grouping of communities with a largely Catholic membership, sought to establish an organization which might support Catholic identity and give a formal link to the Catholic Church. As stated above, the Catholic members of the IBOC were very conscious of the need for an international association which was at least 90% Catholic to have a more formal link with the Holy Father.
So clearly there is a non-Catholic influence at work here, even if it is a smaller percentage.

Again, the early church fathers said that charismata had passed away. It didn’t reemerge until the 1900s in Protestant circles, over 1500 years later. THEN it emerges in Catholic circles 60 years or so later.

I understand that Charismatics are searching for a closer relationship with God, and for this they should be commended (just as the Pope did when he gave thanks for these people). However, I seriously question their methods, actions and genuineness when it comes to this sudden “renewal” of the charims.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top