M
Makerteacher
Guest
Why is the first quote disturbing?
And how is the fact that we have (gasp) some Protestants in some of our communities a problem? Forgive me if this sounds sarcastic, but where do you think ecumenism starts?
- Status
And how is the fact that we have (gasp) some Protestants in some of our communities a problem? Forgive me if this sounds sarcastic, but where do you think ecumenism starts?
S
snuffy
Guest
It’s a sad day, when one of our own condemns others. I think their condemnation is a pure lack of understanding and lack of the Holy Spirit. It is obvious that our Pope is for the Charismatic Renewal…Yes I say Renewal, if there is anyone who does not think our Church does not need Renewal, than he must be from another planet.
I used to belong to a Charismatic Prayer Group (but because of financial problems) can’t attend anymore. I live in the country with 50 miles to travel to go there. However I was with this group for over 6 years. I’ve never met so many wonderful, faith-filled, 100% Catholics in my life. They strive to put Christ first in their lives. And not just on Sunday. Everyday.
Some have had many many hardships in their life, and yet continue to thank God for these hardships.
I’ve been truly blessed to be a part of this group. I still praise God for many hours of my day, and feel truly blessed.
No one can truly understand what the Holy Spirit means in your life unless you walk and talk with this third person of the Blessed Trinity.
I truly pray for a complete Renewal of the Catholic Church.
Jeanette
I used to belong to a Charismatic Prayer Group (but because of financial problems) can’t attend anymore. I live in the country with 50 miles to travel to go there. However I was with this group for over 6 years. I’ve never met so many wonderful, faith-filled, 100% Catholics in my life. They strive to put Christ first in their lives. And not just on Sunday. Everyday.
Some have had many many hardships in their life, and yet continue to thank God for these hardships.
I’ve been truly blessed to be a part of this group. I still praise God for many hours of my day, and feel truly blessed.
No one can truly understand what the Holy Spirit means in your life unless you walk and talk with this third person of the Blessed Trinity.
I truly pray for a complete Renewal of the Catholic Church.
Jeanette
L
Les_Richardson
Guest
Makerteacher,
Coming from a protestant background and knowing charismatics and groups of charismatics, and having a wise Baptist preacher for a father, I would say this.
Some of this reaction comes from observations that may parallel the protestant experience. There can sometimes be a seeking for “the experience” rather than the seeking for God. That is one danger. Theresa of Avila is very wise in this regard.
There can be a elitism of experience within the group. That is common, and has led to such contrivances as “ecstatic speech.”
There can be a superiority complex in regard to other Christians, that is, sometimes as far as requiring tongues as a requisite to salvation, in the group, if not overtly.
There can be a lack of recognition that the gift is in the control of the person who receives it. That is to say, the Holy Spirit does not take over a person the way an evil Spirit might. In any case, some “manifest” the gift inappropriately, or at inappropriate times, driving others away. And, the passage about St. Paul’s requirement of an interpreter is routinely ignored in some circles.
All of which lead to some “seekers” without very astute and orthodox guidance, when they get the notion that “the experience” is the goal, sometimes in ignorance open themselves up to other spirits, sometimes by using some New Age techniques and theories. There are great dangers there.
Sometimes events in meetings that on the face of it seem to be on the up and up can be shut down by Godly men simply praying for the will of God to be done. My father related that particular experience.
I am making no judgements here on your particular group. I don’t have that right. That is for qualified clergy. And as you say, the Holy Father has already approved.
But I am very cautious, and would advise others to be. By your description of the activities of your group, you do great work. My only question, as all of the apostolates mentioned are participated in by a wide variety of Catholics, what in particular, about your group causes you to adopt the name Charismatic?
Coming from a protestant background and knowing charismatics and groups of charismatics, and having a wise Baptist preacher for a father, I would say this.
Some of this reaction comes from observations that may parallel the protestant experience. There can sometimes be a seeking for “the experience” rather than the seeking for God. That is one danger. Theresa of Avila is very wise in this regard.
There can be a elitism of experience within the group. That is common, and has led to such contrivances as “ecstatic speech.”
There can be a superiority complex in regard to other Christians, that is, sometimes as far as requiring tongues as a requisite to salvation, in the group, if not overtly.
There can be a lack of recognition that the gift is in the control of the person who receives it. That is to say, the Holy Spirit does not take over a person the way an evil Spirit might. In any case, some “manifest” the gift inappropriately, or at inappropriate times, driving others away. And, the passage about St. Paul’s requirement of an interpreter is routinely ignored in some circles.
All of which lead to some “seekers” without very astute and orthodox guidance, when they get the notion that “the experience” is the goal, sometimes in ignorance open themselves up to other spirits, sometimes by using some New Age techniques and theories. There are great dangers there.
Sometimes events in meetings that on the face of it seem to be on the up and up can be shut down by Godly men simply praying for the will of God to be done. My father related that particular experience.
I am making no judgements here on your particular group. I don’t have that right. That is for qualified clergy. And as you say, the Holy Father has already approved.
But I am very cautious, and would advise others to be. By your description of the activities of your group, you do great work. My only question, as all of the apostolates mentioned are participated in by a wide variety of Catholics, what in particular, about your group causes you to adopt the name Charismatic?
M
Makerteacher
Guest
Les Richardson:
Thanks for your excellent reply. Your cautions are very good and are things we are always guarding against. We instituted a prayer watch recently (well, last Fall) where at least 8 hours out of every day, someone in the community is praying for one hour for that very cause: that we NOT fall off the narrow path and NOT be misled by evil spirits. We hope to extend that to 24 hours a day. Some charismatic communities already have a 24/7 prayer watch going.
One of the reasons we call ourselves “charismatics” is because we make regular use of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, including prophecy, words of knowledge, teachings, and tongues. Another is that we truly desire to be guided by the Holy Spirit in all that we do. Our musical style also makes us charismatics in the eyes of more traditional Catholics: we have multi-part vocal harmonies, guitars, keyboards, strings, and often a flute and trumpet, sometimes even a harp. We do a LOT of praising and worship music at our meetings, and it’s pretty bouyant and joyful.
Thanks to all who have replied on this thread.
Hi Les
Thanks for your excellent reply. Your cautions are very good and are things we are always guarding against. We instituted a prayer watch recently (well, last Fall) where at least 8 hours out of every day, someone in the community is praying for one hour for that very cause: that we NOT fall off the narrow path and NOT be misled by evil spirits. We hope to extend that to 24 hours a day. Some charismatic communities already have a 24/7 prayer watch going.
One of the reasons we call ourselves “charismatics” is because we make regular use of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, including prophecy, words of knowledge, teachings, and tongues. Another is that we truly desire to be guided by the Holy Spirit in all that we do. Our musical style also makes us charismatics in the eyes of more traditional Catholics: we have multi-part vocal harmonies, guitars, keyboards, strings, and often a flute and trumpet, sometimes even a harp. We do a LOT of praising and worship music at our meetings, and it’s pretty bouyant and joyful.
Thanks to all who have replied on this thread.
V
Vitus
Guest
To me, they sound like an independant movement that keeps in contact with the Vatican. It exists on it’s own, outside of the church, with it’s own governing body and own spiritual leader. I fully admit that I may be looking too much into this.
As for ecumenism, I come from a Charismatic Protestant background. The only true reason for ecumenism was the hope of slowly luring people out of the Catholic church. What better way than through the emotionality that occurs in Charismatic meetings?! We had a Charismatic Catholic family that attended the church which was in no way, shape or form Catholic friendly in theology or in purpose.
The beginning of the end for my 20 years in the Charismatic movement was when I was to help lead a missions group to South America. I was ready to go until we were told we were going there to “fight the Catholic stronghold” there. Keep in mind that this church practiced ecumenism as well.
B
beng
Guest
Fr William Most on Baptism of the Holy Spirit
Some charismatics claim what they have is merely the activation of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, which does not happen in the usual Catholic. They call this Baptism in the Spirit. This too is a great error. All receive these Gifts along with sanctifying grace, and they have an increase at Confirmation and other times. But normally they do not show clear and overt effects until one is far advanced in the spiritual life - earlier, there may be latent effects. Still further, the effects of these Gifts are not the miraculous phenomena - that would be to confuse the sanctifying and the charismatic categories. Some also tend to be fundamentalistic in understanding Scripture.
[n]Many charismatics today are trying to say all Catholics must be charismatic, that “baptism in the spirit” was routine in the Patristic age. We find this clearly in a booklet, Fanning the Flame, by Kilian Mc Donnell (Liturgical Press,1991). He cites a few patristic texts to try to show these phenomena were routine in the patristic age. But the texts given are few, just three are given: Fairly clear are those of Tertullian, St. Hilary, St. Cyril of Jerusalem. But the booklet admits on p.18 that: “Both Basil of Caesarea… and Gregory Nazianzus… situate the prophetic charisms within the Christian initiation, though they are more reserved in their regard than Paul.” No quotes are given. Then we see a remarkable admission on St. John Chrysostom, quoted on the same page, “Chrysostom complained, however ‘the charisms are long gone.’” St. Augustine, in City of God (21.5), has to argue strongly that miracles are possible, against those in his day who denied the possibility. He says that if they want to say the Apostles converted the world without any miracles - that would be a great miracle. If there were miraculous gifts commonly around, Augustine would have merely pointed to them. But he did not.
Still further, historically. The miraculous gifts were common in Paul’s day, but at least by the middle of the next century became scarce in the mainline Church, but common in heretical groups. The present movement started in 1901 among Protestants. By 1925 there were about 38 denominations in the U.S. alone. Some decades later, in 1966. some Catholics, precisely by contact with the Protestants, asked that the Protestants lay hands on them, to receive tongues - for tongues were supposed to be the sign that one had been baptized in the Spirit.
“One Lord, one faith, one baptism”
Some charismatics claim what they have is merely the activation of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, which does not happen in the usual Catholic. They call this Baptism in the Spirit. This too is a great error. All receive these Gifts along with sanctifying grace, and they have an increase at Confirmation and other times. But normally they do not show clear and overt effects until one is far advanced in the spiritual life - earlier, there may be latent effects. Still further, the effects of these Gifts are not the miraculous phenomena - that would be to confuse the sanctifying and the charismatic categories. Some also tend to be fundamentalistic in understanding Scripture.
[n]Many charismatics today are trying to say all Catholics must be charismatic, that “baptism in the spirit” was routine in the Patristic age. We find this clearly in a booklet, Fanning the Flame, by Kilian Mc Donnell (Liturgical Press,1991). He cites a few patristic texts to try to show these phenomena were routine in the patristic age. But the texts given are few, just three are given: Fairly clear are those of Tertullian, St. Hilary, St. Cyril of Jerusalem. But the booklet admits on p.18 that: “Both Basil of Caesarea… and Gregory Nazianzus… situate the prophetic charisms within the Christian initiation, though they are more reserved in their regard than Paul.” No quotes are given. Then we see a remarkable admission on St. John Chrysostom, quoted on the same page, “Chrysostom complained, however ‘the charisms are long gone.’” St. Augustine, in City of God (21.5), has to argue strongly that miracles are possible, against those in his day who denied the possibility. He says that if they want to say the Apostles converted the world without any miracles - that would be a great miracle. If there were miraculous gifts commonly around, Augustine would have merely pointed to them. But he did not.
Still further, historically. The miraculous gifts were common in Paul’s day, but at least by the middle of the next century became scarce in the mainline Church, but common in heretical groups. The present movement started in 1901 among Protestants. By 1925 there were about 38 denominations in the U.S. alone. Some decades later, in 1966. some Catholics, precisely by contact with the Protestants, asked that the Protestants lay hands on them, to receive tongues - for tongues were supposed to be the sign that one had been baptized in the Spirit.
“One Lord, one faith, one baptism”
M
Makerteacher
Guest
Les Richardson:
We are dedicated to the service of the Holy Spirit and the exercise of His gifts and fruits, including prophecy, teaching, tongues, words of knowledge, wisdom, fortitude, etc etc.
M
Makerteacher
Guest
Another side to the story Beng gives above, from Fr. Most.
Here’s is an article by Fr. Cantamalessa, the Pope’s own preacher, explaining (with many Scriptural and historical references) what the English speaking world calls “Baptism in the Holy Spirit”, but what most people in the world call “The Outpouring of The Holy Spirit.” .
ccc.garg.com/ccc/articles/Cantalamessa/Cantalamessa_002.html
We can get into a war of “this Bishop says A” --“Yeah? well, but that Bishop says B”. I’d sincerely prefer not to go there.
Beng is clearly NOT disposed to the Charismatic Renewal, and that’s truly OK by me. This particular lay apostolate is NOT for everyone. What is not OK by me (no personal attack here, just a comment on a fact) is this insistence that he personally knows better than the current Pope and our Magisterium what movements should and should not be approved. He insists that this movement is anti-Biblical and unacceptable, though the Pope and the recent documents of the Church all clearly support it. I am also very saddened over his comment in another thread that persons outside of the Catholic Faith can not do anything for the Lord.
Obedience. It’s a glorious thing.
Here’s is an article by Fr. Cantamalessa, the Pope’s own preacher, explaining (with many Scriptural and historical references) what the English speaking world calls “Baptism in the Holy Spirit”, but what most people in the world call “The Outpouring of The Holy Spirit.” .
ccc.garg.com/ccc/articles/Cantalamessa/Cantalamessa_002.html
We can get into a war of “this Bishop says A” --“Yeah? well, but that Bishop says B”. I’d sincerely prefer not to go there.
Beng is clearly NOT disposed to the Charismatic Renewal, and that’s truly OK by me. This particular lay apostolate is NOT for everyone. What is not OK by me (no personal attack here, just a comment on a fact) is this insistence that he personally knows better than the current Pope and our Magisterium what movements should and should not be approved. He insists that this movement is anti-Biblical and unacceptable, though the Pope and the recent documents of the Church all clearly support it. I am also very saddened over his comment in another thread that persons outside of the Catholic Faith can not do anything for the Lord.
Obedience. It’s a glorious thing.
B
beng
Guest
That priest seperated the sacramental water baptism with Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Very dangerous.
I would think Charismatic would need a radical changes.
Get rid of the fake tongue. No laying hands, no sugar coated prayer and sermons.
As long as any Charismatic or non charismatic movement or even your neigbourhood Rosary prayer disbobey what is stated in the Bible (in the case of Charismaticism it’s 1Cor 14:27-28) then it’s anti-biblical.
Is that infallible or even authoritative?
IMO the Pope is acting like a good father. Hopefully CDF will soon see the erroneous practice of many charismatics (1Cor 14:27-28) and slam these abuses.
I am also very saddened over his comment in another thread that persons outside of the Catholic Faith can not do anything for the Lord.
I do not say that.
S
SPOKENWORD
Guest
BY BENG. Those who are not within the Catholic Church can’t really be used by the lord to speak his words. It’s because non-Catholic are still in mortal sin therefore they have cut off their relationship with God in an intimate level, although not entirely BENG. Likes to play with words and then says he didnt say it. In Ephesians 4 vs.14-16 it says Let us then be children no longer,tossed here and there, carried about every wind of doctrine that originates in human trickery and skill in proposing error. Rather let us profess the truth in love and grow to the full maturity of Christ the Head. I really dont know what Beng is trying to accomplish except to cause strife. Spiritual pride will distroy christians. 
B
beng
Guest
You’re saying that doctrine originate in human trickery?BENG. Likes to play with words and then says he didnt say it. In Ephesians 4 vs.14-16 it says Let us then be children no longer,tossed here and there, carried about every wind of doctrine that originates in human trickery and skill in proposing error. Rather let us profess the truth in love and grow to the full maturity of Christ the Head. I really dont know what Beng is trying to accomplish except to cause strife. Spiritual pride will distroy christians.
Is this the tendency among Charismatic? Going more with feelings than head?
The dogmas of the faith
88 The Church’s Magisterium exercises the authority it holds from Christ to the fullest extent when it defines dogmas, that is, when it proposes, in a form obliging the Christian people to an irrevocable adherence of faith, truths contained in divine Revelation or also when it proposes, in a definitive way, truths having a necessary connection with these.
89 There is an organic connection between our spiritual life and the dogmas. Dogmas are lights along the path of faith; they illuminate it and make it secure. Conversely, if our life is upright, our intellect and heart will be open to welcome the light shed by the dogmas of faith.50
90 The mutual connections between dogmas, and their coherence, can be found in the whole of the Revelation of the mystery of Christ.51 "In Catholic doctrine there exists an order or hierarchy of truths, since they vary in their relation to the foundation of the Christian faith."52
M
Makerteacher
Guest
Several folks have posted Biblical evidence of the early Church using tongues, as directed by Paul and with appropriate limitations. I won’t do it again. Suffice it to say that it was used then and is used now and cannot be “anti-Biblical” since it’s IN the Bible and approved of there, within the boundaries of being orderly, having interpretations if it’s public, and being recognized as a “lesser gift”.
I repeat, tongues is considered the LEAST of the gifts, yet for some reason it seems to be the one that "outsiders’ to Charismatic prayer groups have the MOST trouble with. I rarely if ever have anyone ask me about Words of Knowledge, prophecy, healings, etc. Yet those happen twenty times more often in an average prayer meeting.
I wrote: …though the Pope and the recent documents of the Church all clearly support it. "
Far more authoritative, my brother, than my personal opinion OR yours. We are but parishoners, Catholics with devotion and learning, perhaps, but our learning is gravely limited compared to the men who study their whole lives and pray for hours a day. I’ll take their word first every time. It’s why God set up the Church this way, and frankly it’s the bottomline reason why I became a Catholic: authority!
When I mentioned how sad I was about Beng believing that those outside the Catholic faith cannot be used by God to speak His words, he replied:
Yeah, actually, you did.
Someone already found the post and cut and pasted it here so I won’t do so. Again, your opinion on this matter does NOT line up with the Catechism, so I’ll obey the Magisterium and disagree with your idea that persons outside of the Catholic Faith are unable to be used by the Lord. Look at Jonah and the Ninevites. (Jonah didn’t want God to give His words or warning and redemption to those bad ikky outsiders. Kinda like todays “outsiders” are sometimes seen by persons “inside” the official Roman Catholic Church.) If God can use a whale, he can sure use a Baptist or someone from a non-denominational church too!This thread is SUPPOSED to be about baptism in the spirit, more appropriately called The Outpouring of the Holy Spirit. So, can we return to that topic now?
B
beng
Guest
What is ANTI-biblical is the use of tongues amongst believer without interpretation.
Because tongue is the one that mostly abused by Charismaticst.
Because it doesn’t stand out like tongues.
Incorrect.
Endorsement is NOT an authoritative statement. It has ZERO authority. It’s just what it is, an endorsement.
When I mentioned how sad I was about Beng believing that those outside the Catholic faith cannot be used by God to speak His words, he replied:
Where is the cut and paste?Yeah, actually, you did.
I did not say that.
Find my word and quote it.
To make it easier for you, these are my words
*Do you really understand the Catholic Faith?
When you’re in mortal sin you CUT YOURSELF from the grace of God. THIS IS “DE FIDE”!
Your relationship with God is OFF in an intimate way (Not totally because no being or even “things” can’t be seperated with God completely because He’s the one who sustain all things). Thus, the infamous Protestant sugar coated “personal relationship with Jesus” is wrong just because Protestant is in the state of heresy.
When you’re NOT in the state of Grace your other prayers, beside ones that impel you to seek reconciliation to the one true church, ARE USELESS (do read your Baltimore Catechism).
First thing first. One must be united with the Body of Christ aka the Catholic Church before one can have such profound relationship with God (ex: speaking the words of God).
Learn the faith and not base your judgment on mere “feeling,” which is what I’ve seen in your post above.*
Find me where I say, as you’ve accused me of: "I am also very saddened over his comment in another thread that persons outside of the Catholic Faith can not do anything for the Lord."
Stop the slander.
…
cont
B
beng
Guest
cont…
Since you’re incorrectly accused me, the above statement is a straw man.
This “outpouring of the Holy Spirit” is another Protestant sugar coated term which have no meaning at all in Catholic theology.This thread is SUPPOSED to be about baptism in the spirit, more appropriately called The Outpouring of the Holy Spirit. So, can we return to that topic now?
B
beng
Guest
Lean form The Baltimore Catechism
482
Q. Can a person merit any supernatural reward for good deeds performed while he is in mortal sin?
A. A person cannot merit any supernatural reward for good deeds performed while he is in mortal sin;
nevertheless, God rewards such good deeds by giving the grace of repentance; and, therefore, all persons, even
those in mortal sin, should ever strive to do good.
842
Q. How do good works done in mortal sin profit us?
A. Good works done in mortal sin profit us by obtaining for us the grace to repent and sometimes temporal
blessings. Mortal sin deprives us of all our merit, nevertheless God will bestow gifts for every good deed as He will punish every evil deed.
And remember, only Protestant and/or Orthodox who are not invincible ignorance and not in the state of mortal sin can possibly be in the state of grace.
482
Q. Can a person merit any supernatural reward for good deeds performed while he is in mortal sin?
A. A person cannot merit any supernatural reward for good deeds performed while he is in mortal sin;
nevertheless, God rewards such good deeds by giving the grace of repentance; and, therefore, all persons, even
those in mortal sin, should ever strive to do good.
842
Q. How do good works done in mortal sin profit us?
A. Good works done in mortal sin profit us by obtaining for us the grace to repent and sometimes temporal
blessings. Mortal sin deprives us of all our merit, nevertheless God will bestow gifts for every good deed as He will punish every evil deed.
And remember, only Protestant and/or Orthodox who are not invincible ignorance and not in the state of mortal sin can possibly be in the state of grace.
- Status