Baptism/Justification/Sin/Grace/Sonship

[ajcstr]

OK,

Can someone please help me with this…

At Baptism we receive the gift of initial justification in which we are transferred from being children of wrath to children of God as Paul states in Ephesians 2.

When we commit mortal sin we lose justification which must be restored through the sacrament of Reconciliation. Do we loose sonship also through sin or is that only lost through apostasy?

When Adam sinned, did Adam lose his divine sonship and therefore could not pass it on, hence original sin?

I guess I am fuzzy of the relationship between justification and divine sonship.

 

[joeybaggz]

OK,

Can someone please help me with this…

At Baptism we receive the gift of initial justification in which we are transferred from being children of wrath to children of God as Paul states in Ephesians 2.

When we commit mortal sin we lose justification which must be restored through the sacrament of Reconciliation. Do we loose sonship also through sin or is that only lost through apostasy?

When Adam sinned, did Adam lose his divine sonship and therefore could not pass it on, hence original sin?

I guess I am fuzzy of the relationship between justification and divine sonship.

Your term, “children of wrath” is jarring. Baptism, like Jewish circumcision, is the introduction of a child into the covenant, either the Covenant of God with the Chosen people, or the New Covenant established by Christ.

We are almost always called children of God. We are made in the “image and likeness” of God, and Jesus himself said that it was necessary to “become like unto these little ones for such as these is the kingdom of Heaven made.”

Like a small child that seriously disobeys a parent, the child is reprimanded but retains the love of the father/parent. He or she does not lose the son/daughtership of the parent. Our sin deprives us of that “divine” nature in whose image we are created. Christ’s sacrifice on Calvary shows us constantly, how God so loved the world, and His children in it.

Are you possibly overthinking the concept??

My :twocents:

 

[po18guy]

Replace “justification” with “sanctifying grace.”

As to sonship, think of the prodigal son. He never stopped being a son, but rather, was a distance away from his father. However, the sequence remains the same: repentance and reconciliation - through which God’s grace flows.

Although justification is a crucial issue, it is normally reformation Christians (i.e.Protestants) that seem to endlessly obsess over it.

 

[ajcstr]

Your term, “children of wrath” is jarring.

Are you possibly overthinking the concept??

My :twocents:

Understood but this is ST Paul’s term not mine (I’m not as dramatic as he was).

Also from Council of Trent …“The holy Synod declares first, that, for the correct and sound understanding of the doctrine of Justification, it is necessary that each one recognise and confess, that, whereas all men had lost their innocence in the prevarication of Adam-having become unclean, and, as the apostle says, by nature children of wrath”

 

[ajcstr]

Replace “justification” with “sanctifying grace.”

As to sonship, think of the prodigal son. He never stopped being a son, but rather, was a distance away from his father. However, the sequence remains the same: repentance and reconciliation - through which God’s grace flows.

Although justification is a crucial issue, it is normally reformation Christians (i.e.Protestants) that seem to endlessly obsess over it.

I agree with what you say about the prodigal son and this would imply that one cannot lose
sonship, but yet this sonship is not passed on to us, we must be gifted it which would imply that Adam lost it through sin.

And BTW, the declaration on Justification is one of the longest sections in the Council of Trent and is discussed in the CCC.

Consider…Adam’s sin involved the loss of his supernatural status as a son of God. Matthias J. Scheeben, an eminent German Roman Catholic theologian of the 19th century, explains, “It is a complete estrangement and separation of man from God as his supernatural end, and is met with on God’s part not by a simple displeasure – involving disfavor in the moral sense – but by a forcible ejection from the state of the children of God, a stripping away of the supernatural raiment of grace.” (The Mysteries of Christianity). In short, the divine sonship of Adam was lost through original sin.

So if Adam actually lost sonship, can we?

 

[joeybaggz]

Understood but this is ST Paul’s term not mine (I’m not as dramatic as he was).

Understood. Then again, I think St. Paul is a bit “jarring” at times. Realize though that St. Paul most probably believed that Jesus was coming back in his lifetime, and that definitely colored St. Paul’s thoughts and words.

Shalom

 

[LatinRight]

I agree with what you say about the prodigal son and this would imply that one cannot lose
sonship, but yet this sonship is not passed on to us, we must be gifted it which would imply that Adam lost it through sin.

And BTW, the declaration on Justification is one of the longest sections in the Council of Trent and is discussed in the CCC.

Consider…Adam’s sin involved the loss of his supernatural status as a son of God. Matthias J. Scheeben, an eminent German Roman Catholic theologian of the 19th century, explains, “It is a complete estrangement and separation of man from God as his supernatural end, and is met with on God’s part not by a simple displeasure – involving disfavor in the moral sense – but by a forcible ejection from the state of the children of God, a stripping away of the supernatural raiment of grace.” (The Mysteries of Christianity). In short, the divine sonship of Adam was lost through original sin.

So if Adam actually lost sonship, can we?

God bless Ajcstr and every readers of the CAF.

As God’s chosen sons and daughters/elect, if God would lose to control the universe then we could lose our sonshep.

So, as long as God is able to control the universe our sonshep and our God’s gift of IRREVOCABLE eternal life in Heaven is absolutely safe.

ST. AUGUSTINE ON GRACE AND PREDESTINATION

De gratia Christi 25, 26:
“For not only has God given us our ability and helps it, but He even works [brings about] willing and acting in us; not that we do not will or that we do not act, but that without His help we neither will anything good nor do it.”

De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32:
“It is certain that we will when we will; but He brings it about that we will good. . . . It is certain that we act when we act, but He brings it about that we act, PROVIDING MOST EFFECTIVE POWERS TO THE WILL.”

Phil.2:13; “For it is God who works in you BOTH TO WILL and TO ACT for His good pleasure.”

CCC 2022; “The divine initiative in the work of grace PRECEDES,PREPARES, and ELICITS the free response of man. …”

The salvation of God’s children/elect always based on God’s initiative.

God bless Ajcstr and every readers of the CAF.

LatinRight

 

[LatinRight]

OK,

Can someone please help me with this…

At Baptism we receive the gift of initial justification in which we are transferred from being children of wrath to children of God as Paul states in Ephesians 2.

When we commit mortal sin we lose justification which must be restored through the sacrament of Reconciliation. Do we loose sonship also through sin or is that only lost through apostasy?

When Adam sinned, did Adam lose his divine sonship and therefore could not pass it on, hence original sin?

I guess I am fuzzy of the relationship between justification and divine sonship.

God bless Ajcstr and every readers of the CAF.

Our sonship and our everlasting life is IRREVOCABLE, Rom.11:29; John 5:24; John 6:47; John 6:51; John 6:54; Rom.6:23; etc.

Christ did not say; Those who believes has** periodical life and death,** Christ said; they have eternal life, the matter is settled!!! – “Christ has spoken (ETERNAL LIFE); The case is closed.”

John 12:48; (AMP)
Whoever rejects Me and refuses to accept My teachings, has one who judges him; the VERY word that I spoke * (ETERNAL LIFE*) will judge and condemn him on the last day. – In the brackets added for the believers of periodical life and death.

If an elect could lose eternal life, he would have periodical life and death.

For an elect to lose his sonship and God’s gift of eternal life is OUTRIGHT contradicts Christ’s promise of the eternal life of the elect (only the elect believe Christ, and the Scripture NO ONE ELSE). – So, can NEVER happen that an elect lose his sonship or everlasting life.

It is IRREVOCABLE for many reasons. – Rom.11:29; For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.

God called His chosen sons and daughters/elect to be His sons and daughters, this call and their gift of ETERNAL life can NEVER be revoked.

At their initial justification, God has given to His sons and daughters His gift of everlasting life for ETERNITY. – God doesn’t make the mistake to give it to the wrong person.

God’s sons and daughters/elect, can NEVER be any position when they are not God’s sons and daughters and they don’t have God’s IRREVOCABLE gift of everlasting life.

If their sonship and their everlasting life could be revoked, they could die in that position and they would end up in hell and God would lose His omniscience. – DE FIDE Dogma.

GOD IS THE ONE WHO SAVES HIS CHILDREN

Phil.2:13; “For it is God who works in you BOTH TO WILL and TO ACT for His good pleasure.”

CCC 2022; “The divine initiative in the work of grace PRECEDES,PREPARES, and ELICITS the free response of man. …”

The salvation of God’s children/elect always based on God’s initiative.

Phil.1:6; (Ignatius Catholic Study Bible)
And I am sure, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

SUMMARY

God’s chosen sons and daughters/elect CAN NEVER be a position when they are not God’s sons and daughters.

Furthermore, God’s chosen sons and daughters/elect CAN NEVER be a position when they don’t have their God’s gift of everlasting life.

If God’s chosen sons and daughters/elect would be in a position, which position they are not God’s sons and daughters and their everlasting life revoked, they could die in this position and they could end up in hell and God would lose His omniscience. – DE FIDE Dogma. – The highest level of binding theological certainty.

God bless Ajcstr and every readers of the CAF.

LatinRight

 

[grannymh]

OK,

Can someone please help me with this…

At Baptism we receive the gift of initial justification in which we are transferred from being children of wrath to children of God as Paul states in Ephesians 2.

When we commit mortal sin we lose justification which must be restored through the sacrament of Reconciliation. Do we loose sonship also through sin or is that only lost through apostasy?

When Adam sinned, did Adam lose his divine sonship and therefore could not pass it on, hence original sin?

I guess I am fuzzy of the relationship between justification and divine sonship.

“Replace justification” with “sanctifying grace.” from po18guy, post 3,is a good place to start.

Sanctifying grace is the term which describes our state in which we are sharing in the Divine Life of our Creator God. We can be in a state of happiness when something good happens and we can be in a grumpy state when we get out of bed on the wrong side. Obviously, the state of sharing in the Divine Life of God is the most important state for us.
Genesis 1: 27.

27
God created mankind in His image;
in the image of God He created them;
male and female* He created them.
usccb.org/bible/genesis/1

Adam was created in a state of happiness known as the State of Original Holiness aka State of Sanctifying Grace. Another way to explain this is the term relationship. Adam, the original human person, was created in a friendship relationship with his Divine Creator God.

Divine sonship is a soft description which does not fully explain the nitty-gritty details of Adam’s life as an expert in agriculture. As a true human, Adam needed food.

Genesis 2:15.

15
The LORD God then took the man and settled him in the garden of Eden, to cultivate and care for it.%between%
usccb.org/bible/genesis/2

Genesis 3: 6

6
The woman saw that the tree was good for food …
usccb.org/bible/genesis/3

Unfortunately, I will be gone for most of the day. If you have time, look at the first three fascinating chapters of Genesis.
Link to Bible index. usccb.org/bible/books-of-the-bible/index.cfm

 

[grannymh]

When Adam sinned, did Adam lose his divine sonship and therefore could not pass it on, hence original sin?

In post 9, we learn that Adam is a true human; therefore he cannot be a “divine” sonship.

What Adam had, as a human being, is a friendship relationship with his Divine Creator. This relationship has the requirement that the human “can live this friendship only in free submission to God.” Paragraph 396, *Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition. *
This free submission, obedience, is explained in Genesis 2: 15-17.

15
The LORD God then took the man and settled him in the garden of Eden, to cultivate and care for it.
16
The LORD God gave the man this order: You are free to eat from any of the trees of the garden
17
except the tree of knowledge of good and evil. From that tree you shall not eat; when you eat from it you shall die.
usccb.org/bible/genesis/2

Are there questions?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Each human person is worthy of profound respect.

 

[mackbrislawn]

OK,

Can someone please help me with this…

At Baptism we receive the gift of initial justification in which we are transferred from being children of wrath to children of God as Paul states in Ephesians 2.

When we commit mortal sin we lose justification which must be restored through the sacrament of Reconciliation. Do we loose sonship also through sin or is that only lost through apostasy?

When Adam sinned, did Adam lose his divine sonship and therefore could not pass it on, hence original sin?

I guess I am fuzzy of the relationship between justification and divine sonship.

We never lose sonship, even through mortal sin. That is, once a child of God, always a child of God. Even when consorting with gentiles and sleeping with pigs (the lowest he could go), the prodigal son was still a son, and his father accepted him back when he returned.

 

[grannymh]

We never lose sonship, even through mortal sin. That is, once a child of God, always a child of God. Even when consorting with gentiles and sleeping with pigs (the lowest he could go), the prodigal son was still a son, and his father accepted him back when he returned.

Granted that I have no clue about sonship and daughtership. Nonetheless, I thought mortal sin was when a person freely removed himself from a friendship relationship with the Creator God aka the loss of the State of Sanctifying Grace. (CCC Glossary, Mortal Sin, page 889)

 

[mackbrislawn]

Granted that I have no clue about sonship and daughtership. Nonetheless, I thought mortal sin was when a person freely removed himself from a friendship relationship with the Creator God aka the loss of the State of Sanctifying Grace. (CCC Glossary, Mortal Sin, page 889)

Yes, that’s true. But even with mortal sin one is still a child of God, even though the friendship relationship with the Father God is removed. However, since one is still a child of God, you can yet return! Just like the prodigal son did.

 

[grannymh]

Yes, that’s true. But even with mortal sin one is still a child of God, even though the friendship relationship with the Father God is removed. However, since one is still a child of God, you can yet return! Just like the prodigal son did.

We can return to a friendship relationship with God aka State of Sanctifying Grace because we have a spiritual rational soul. CCC 1730, Genesis 1: 27, Genesis 3: 15, John 3: 16-17, Matthew 11: 28-30.

 

[Darryl_B]

Your term, “children of wrath” is jarring. Baptism, like Jewish circumcision, is the introduction of a child into the covenant, either the Covenant of God with the Chosen people, or the New Covenant established by Christ.

We are almost always called children of God. We are made in the “image and likeness” of God, and Jesus himself said that it was necessary to “become like unto these little ones for such as these is the kingdom of Heaven made.”

Like a small child that seriously disobeys a parent, the child is reprimanded but retains the love of the father/parent. He or she does not lose the son/daughtership of the parent. Our sin deprives us of that “divine” nature in whose image we are created. Christ’s sacrifice on Calvary shows us constantly, how God so loved the world, and His children in it.

Are you possibly overthinking the concept??

My :twocents:

My friend, I agree with you. I would just add that we are children of Adam and therefore children of wrath. If I take the two terms and put them together

Children of Adam
Children of wrath

What I see is there is Original Sin. That is Trent. But juxtaposed to that is exactly what you and Trent express, propitiation.

 

[ajcstr]

We never lose sonship, even through mortal sin. That is, once a child of God, always a child of God. Even when consorting with gentiles and sleeping with pigs (the lowest he could go), the prodigal son was still a son, and his father accepted him back when he returned.

My gut would tell me you are correct, but I’m not so sure. If justification and sonship are the same then we can lose both. Adam did.

 

[grannymh]

My gut would tell me you are correct, but I’m not so sure. If justification and sonship are the same then we can lose both. Adam did.

Adam did what?

Perhaps it is time to start the beginning of human history at its beginning. Is there anyone who can do that???

 

[ajcstr]

Adam did what?

Adam lost his justification/sonship by sinning (see post #5)

 

[mackbrislawn]

My gut would tell me you are correct, but I’m not so sure. If justification and sonship are the same then we can lose both. Adam did.

God does not kick us out, we kick ourselves out. But since we are His sons, He takes us back. Observe how the prodigal son, even though having abandoned his father, sleeping with the most unclean things around, gentiles and pigs, was not abandoned by his father. He was still his father’s son. We know that because all the while the son was gone, the father was waiting for his return. When the son finally decided to return, the father saw him from afar, and ran out to meet him. Such is our heavenly Father.

That is why, once a child of God, always a child of God.

 

[grannymh]

Adam lost his justification/sonship by sinning (see post #5)

The actual Original Sin occurred when Adam shattered his relationship with his Divine Creator God. Adam disobeyed God. Adam abused his freedom. Adam preferred himself. Adam scorned God. Adam acted against his own good.
Paragraphs 397-398, universal Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition.