Baptism, non-essential!

[NotWorthy]

Simon, you’re going to have to explain Acts 19:

1 While Apollos was in Corinth, Paul traveled through the interior of the country and came (down) to Ephesus where he found some disciples. 2 He said to them, “Did you receive the holy Spirit when you became believers?” They answered him, “We have never even heard that there is a holy Spirit.” 3 He said, “How were you baptized?” They replied, “With the baptism of John.” 4 Paul then said, “John baptized with a baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul laid (his) hands on them, the holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.

Notice, when Paul sees that they didn’t know the Holy Spirit, what is his first question? “How were you baptized?” He didn’t ask, “what’s wrong with your faith”, did he? No, he asked “How were you baptized?”

Then Paul baptizes them (which you said Paul claimed wasn’t important, but Paul sure seems to show here that it is integral to receiving the Holy Spirit) and guess what? They receive the Holy Spirit!!! Paul saw the link between receiving the Holy Spirit and Baptism.

 

[JaneFrances]

Faith requires the ability of making a decision, infants can’t oblige.

So, faith is necessary, except when it is impossible.

Thus, Baptism is necessary, except when it is impossible.

Those are the exceptions.

God, through His Divine Good Will, offers salvation to those who respond to His initiating grace. Those who can not respond, through no fault of their own, are wholly reliant upon Divine Mercy.

 

[guanophore]

How can circumstances circumvent necessity?

God can circumvent whatever He wishes. He gave us baptism, and commanded us to do it. But He is not constrained by it. As He demonstrated with the house of Cornelius, though He intends Baptism to be the normative means of being filled with the HS, He does not have to wait for that.

Don’t confuse baptism of the spirit with baptism by water…

They belong to gether, and should not be separated. however, I am curious how you explain that one is “buried” with Christ in His death when there is no water present.

Christ shed blood is what washes sin from us…

Behold the Lamb of God whom takes away the sin of the world!

New covenant
Heb 9:15
For this reason he is mediator of a new covenant: since a death has taken place for deliverance from transgressions under the first covenant, those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance.

Like moses in the old

Hebrews 9:19-22
For when every commandment had been told to all the people by Moses in accordance with the law, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the scroll itself and all the people, saying, ‘This is the blood of the covenant that God has ordained for you.’ And in the same way he sprinkled with the blood both the tent and all the vessels used in worship. Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.

Indeed yes. And it is through baptism that we are brought into the New Covenant, bought by His blood. We become partakers of His grace.

Yes and if you read Ephesians 4 you’ll see it is all about the unity of the spirit. (baptism of the spirit is what they speak of here)

Unity of the Spirit

1 Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called, 2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love, 3 being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.
7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore it says,
“WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH,
HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES,
AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN.”
9 (Now this expression, “He ascended,” what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.) 11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. 14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; 15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.

Baptism is the initiation rite that makes us members of that Body. The basis for the unity of spirit.

 

[Philthy]

You choose silence myfavoritemartin?

I will pray for you.

 

[NotWorthy]

You choose silence myfavoritemartin?

I will pray for you.

Patience. Our brother is offline right now.

But the prayers certainly couldn’t hurt and I’m sure Simon would appreciate them!!! He does consider us his Christian brothers… we just happen to be wrong in his opinion.

 

[guanophore]

“I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.) For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel…” (1 Cor. 1:14-17).

If baptism is necessary for salvation then why did Paul downplay it and even exclude it from the description of what is required for salvation? It is because baptism isn’t necessary for salvation.

Paul did not downplay baptism, or exclude it from what is required. Paul did not spend his time baptising. He was called to preach and to teach. Those that accompanied him did the baptisms, except for a very few. He is glad about that, because it was clear that being baptised was an initiation rite that made the individual part of something. People seemed to be confused, and were bickering about who they became “part” of, instead of recognizing that they all had become a part of Christ, and not the person who did the baptism.

Paul was immediately baptized, and instructed all who became believers to be baptized, and taught everyone about the sacramental nature of baptism.

 

[NotWorthy]

Paul did not downplay baptism, or exclude it from what is required.

Look at post 199 for affirmation of your point.

 

[JaneFrances]

One must be baptized in the spirit, this comes from believing…Not a dabble of water.

Jesus teaches us:

“I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.[a]”

“How can a man be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb to be born!”

Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. (John 3:3-5)

And St. John testifies to this as he teaches:

3This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, 4for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.
6This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7For there are three that testify: 8the[a] Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. (1 John 5:1-7)

As Scripture commands and God desires, we are born again through the waters of Baptism, the Blood of Jesus Christ, and the testimony of the Spirit. There is no opposition between the Spirit and the water. There is no tension between the water and the Blood, for our Lord Himself consecrates the water through his own baptism and offers His own Blood as the Lamb slain. And neither is the Blood opposed to the Spirit. “These three are in agreement.”

 

[NotWorthy]

As Scripture commands and God desires, we are born again through the waters of Baptism, the Blood of Jesus Christ, and the testimony of the Spirit. There is no opposition between the Spirit and the water. There is no tension between the water and the Blood, for our Lord Himself consecrates the water through his own baptism and offers His own Blood as the Lamb slain. And neither is the Blood opposed to the Spirit. “These three are in agreement.”

And the Choir sings:

AMEN!!!

 

[guanophore]

Rob-

You are not crazy, however you should not expect pure intellectual dialogue to result in the conversion of a heart to the truth. Such changes are God’s work through the Holy Spirit. The discussion is greatly beneficial to those who, without a visible defense of the Catholic faith, might be tempted to accept intellectual exercises over divine revelation.
That much being said, I find such back and forth dialogue where each side can step back and see their own arguments as correct to be the most condemning witness against Sola Scriptura.
I know this technically off topic, but it remains at the heart of all such dialogue: By what authority do you claim to know God’s Truth through interpretation of Sacred Scripture? If the answer is, “I dont claim any authority” - which is inherently required of the SS adherent- then why, exactly, do any of us need to be listening to SS adherents? We don’t, of course, listen in the fullest sense of the term, but we do dialogue so that the Truth may be recognized from merely sound intellectual speculations.

And realize that, although people like Simon and tabcom have already made up their minds in advance, despite study and evidence to the contrary, there are easily 8 times more people lurking and reading the thread than there are posting who may be willing to learn what the Apostolic teaching is, and why.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

So it’s not necessary for salvation then?

-Rob

Right, faith in an infant is unnecessary…How many times shall I repeat this and show my scriptural basis for it.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

As Scripture commands and God desires, we are born again through the waters of Baptism, "

Really Jane?
You believe this?

 

[myfavoritmartin]

And realize that, although people like Simon and tabcom have already made up their minds in advance, despite study and evidence to the contrary, there are easily 8 times more people lurking and reading the thread than there are posting who may be willing to learn what the Apostolic teaching is, and why.

The apostles taught the same thing you read in scripture… Your church adds to this, that is not apostolic teaching.

 

[guanophore]

The devil hopes people rely on their own works, ie baptism for salvation, he knows that Christ’s blood is the “Gospel”…

Ahhh. So that is the foundation of your objection to baptism. You consider it a “work”? Would that be a work of the flesh, by which no one can be saved?

Why would Jesus command us to our “own works” in the context of preaching and teaching the Gospel?

He says to make disciples, baptizing them…do people become disciples through their “own works”?

1 Pet. 3:21, “and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also – not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.”

  This is the only verse that says that baptism saves. But, the NIV translation of the verse is unfortunate. A better translation is found in the NASB which says, "and corresponding to that, baptism now saves you."

The flood waters destroyed the ungodly. Peter, when referring to the flood waters, refers to them as the means of destruction of the ungodly (2 Pet. 2:5; 3:6). It was the Ark that saved. Noah entered the ark by faith. Baptism here, in my opinion, refers to the Ark, not the waters. That is why the rest of the verse says, “not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God” which is consistent with what Paul said in Col. 2:11-12 where He equates baptism with being circumcised of heart.

Just as the waters of baptism destroy the ungodly works of the flesh, creating a clean conscience toward God. It is not a water bath to wash the body of dirt, it is a spiritual bath, to cleanse the soul from sin. Yes, water baptism is equated with circumcusion of the heart. A "circumcision made with out hands’ but by the HS when baptism takes place.

 

[guanophore]

Show me the apostolic interpretation of this in scripture.

It was quoted to you in the thread a little way up. You can see the instructions for Baptism as written in the Didache, the earliest liturgical guide we have from the first century practices.

 

[JaneFrances]

Really Jane?
You believe this?

No, actually I believe what I wrote:

As Scripture commands and God desires, we are born again through the waters of Baptism, the Blood of Jesus Christ, and the testimony of the Spirit.

 

[mikeledes]

Faith requires the ability of making a decision, infants can’t oblige.
Mike, go back and look at a few of the posts I made regarding this…

So if infants can be saved without faith, then that is an exception to the normative way - particularly according to Protestantism - of salvation through faith. The same way this exception to the norm (i.e. faith) does not make faith unnecessary in general, exceptions to the norm of baptism does not make baptism unnecessary.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[JaneFrances]

The apostles taught the same thing you read in scripture… Your church adds to this, that is not apostolic teaching.

When making assertions like this one, it is often helpful to provide examples.

Like this: I assert that the apostles taught the same thing you read in Scripture, too! To learn what the apostles taught, beyond the testimony of Sacred Scripture, I look to those who heard the Gospel from the apostles themselves. Here are some examples (thanks to CA!):

from The Letter of Barnabas
“Regarding [baptism], we have the evidence of Scripture that Israel would refuse to accept the washing which confers the remission of sins and would set up a substitution of their own instead [Ps. 1:3–6]. Observe there how he describes both the water and the cross in the same figure. His meaning is, ‘Blessed are those who go down into the water with their hopes set on the cross.’ Here he is saying that after we have stepped down into the water, burdened with sin and defilement, we come up out of it bearing fruit, with reverence in our hearts and the hope of Jesus in our souls” (Letter of Barnabas 11:1–10 [A.D. 74]).

from the Shepher of Hermas
“‘I have heard, sir,’ said I, ‘from some teacher, that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins.’ He said to me, ‘You have heard rightly, for so it is’” (The Shepherd 4:3:1–2 [A.D. 80]).

from Ignatius of Antioch
“Let none of you turn deserter. Let your baptism be your armor; your faith, your helmet; your love, your spear; your patient endurance, your panoply” (Letter to Polycarp 6 [A.D. 110]).

from Second Clement
"For, if we do the will of Christ, we shall find rest; but if otherwise, then nothing shall deliver us from eternal punishment, if we should disobey his commandments. . . . [W]ith what confidence shall we, if we keep not our baptism pure and undefiled, enter into the kingdom of God? Or who shall be our advocate, unless we be found having holy and righteous works?’ (Second Clement 6:7–9 [A.D. 150]).

from Justin Martyr
“Whoever are convinced and believe that what they are taught and told by us is the truth, and professes to be able to live accordingly, are instructed to pray and to beseech God in fasting for the remission of their former sins, while we pray and fast with them. Then they are led by us to a place where there is water, and they are reborn in the same kind of rebirth in which we ourselves were reborn: ‘In the name of God, the Lord and Father of all, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit,’ they receive the washing of water. For Christ said, ‘Unless you be reborn, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven’” (First Apology 61:14–17 [A.D. 151]).

from Justin Martyr
“As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, and instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we pray and fast with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father . . . and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit [Matt. 28:19], they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]” (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).

from Irenaeus
“‘And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan’ [2 Kgs. 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’” (Fragment 34 [A.D. 190]).

from Tertullian
“[N]o one can attain salvation without baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says, ‘Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life’” (Baptism 12:1 [A.D. 203]).

 

[fellowChristian]

**Acts 8:12-13 **
12But when **they believed **Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being baptized, men and women alike.

13Even Simon himself believed; and after being baptized, he continued on with Philip, and as he observed signs and great miracles taking place, he was constantly amazed.

They believed and right after they were baptized. Why?

**Acts 10:47-48 **

47"Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?"

48And he **ordered them to be baptized **in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.

**
They received the Holy Spirit and Peter ordered them to be baptized anyway!**

Acts 8:36

36As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch said, “Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?”

37[And Philip said, “**If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”]

38And he ordered the chariot to stop; and they both went down into the water, Philip as well as the eunuch, and he baptized him.

He believed, why the water?

Acts 9:17

17So Ananias departed and entered the house, and after laying his hands on him said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road by which you were coming, has sent me so that you may regain your sight and **be filled with the Holy Spirit.” **

18 And immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he regained his sight, and **he got up and was baptized; **

Saul believed then he was baptized.

A Sacrament is a visible sign of an inward grace

**Water is the visible sign. **

**

1 Peter 3:21

21and this **water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

A sign of our pledge to God!
**Isn’t that what I said in my other post? **

James 2

Faith and Works

14What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

15If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,

16and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?

**17Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. **

18But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”

** 19You believe that God is one You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. **

20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?

22You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;

23and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God.

24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

25In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?

**26For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead. **

Baptism is essential for our salvation.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

Simon, in your view that Nicodemus understood Jesus, I think your incorrect. Nidodemus completely mis-understood Jesus words, which necessitated the correction. Also, being born “of water” is redundant, for what human is NOT born of water (in your definition “from the womb”)?

Just my two cents …
Perhaps Jesus is clarifing that pre-birth embryos do not get to God’s kingdom. Not too far fetched.

I see it very clearly as referring to the natural birth. Yet, if I try hard I can see how someone could combine “water and spirit” into one -water baptism. But for me I see water corresponding with the flesh comment. And spirit with spirit comment. This then confirmed when Nicodemus refers to reentering the womb. He knew what Jesus meant.